summer time issues once again

March 29, 2020 at 06:17:33
Specs: Win 10, 8GB
It's 2020 by now, and yet it seems hard to have computers adjust to have the correct time being used. I will need to MANUALLY adjust my time, so that the change in summer/winter time is done correctly.
My Windows 7 computer did do it correctly, but my Windows 10 is lacking on that.

Not a fan of changing the hour twice a year, and this is proving why : it seems to be hard, even for "the best Windows out there" to do just that. Apart from asking to stop this nonsense, the more technical question I have is:

How do I get that fixed, and not just this time, but every time, on a Windows 10 machine ?

Edit: my timezone is correct. It even announces the next time it will do similar (in October), but it failed to correct it this time. Machine was bounced a couple of times already. What is true : the machine was down, at moment of hour change.

message edited by Looge


See More: summer time issues once again

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#1
March 29, 2020 at 06:24:00
My Windows 10 computers updated the time OK, just as they always do.

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#2
March 29, 2020 at 07:08:08
I'm sure it does. Do you have summer and winter time changes in the location where you live ?

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#3
March 29, 2020 at 07:58:21
Do you have summer and winter time changes in the location where you live ? .

Everyone does; happens everywhere...

The weather get warmer or colder; which goes warmer/colder depends on which side of the equator the location is...


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Related Solutions

#4
March 29, 2020 at 08:35:13
What I said wouldn't have made much sense if we didn't have changes, would it?

We've been using Daylight Saving every year since 1916 - unlike your country. Of course, my Windows hasn't updated itself for each of those 105 years. ;-)


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#5
March 29, 2020 at 09:19:48
"Everyone does; happens everywhere..."

Well, not everywhere;

https://worldpopulationreview.com/s...

"Channeling the spirit of jboy..."

message edited by T-R-A


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#6
March 29, 2020 at 09:35:03
> Everyone does; happens everywhere...

Don't be too sure about that.


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#7
March 29, 2020 at 09:36:29
> The weather get warmer or colder; which goes warmer/colder depends on
> which side of the equator the location is...

True, and the change in hour is a local government law, voted by the governement as they were elected by their respective people.


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#8
March 29, 2020 at 09:43:53
> We've been using Daylight Saving every year since 1916 - unlike your country.

Interesting, how do you KNOW in which country my computers are. You might be violating national privacy laws if you do.

> Of course, my Windows hasn't updated itself for each of those 105 years. ;-)

Windows 10 hasn't been released for that time, so you would be one heck of a beta tester if you do


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#9
March 29, 2020 at 09:49:32
Back on topic: my OTHER Windows 10 has the same issue. This machine is quite different (hardware wise), but it was installed using the same installation software. Needless to say, but I'll do anyway, all Windows 10 machines, have a separate and valid license.

I did note that on initial startup, before logging in, the time was correct ! Then, it changed, and got wrong as well. I do not know if that happened on my first computer (the one that caused this thread).

message edited by Looge


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#10
March 29, 2020 at 10:05:56
summer and winter time changes

= changes which occur, take place in winter and summer...

e.g. weather patterns for example...; leaves falling or buds breaking as appropriate... birdies leaving or arriving... critters hibernating or emerging therefrom... and so on..


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#11
March 29, 2020 at 10:09:48
No privacy laws breached!

Your profile gives your time zone. None of the countries in that time zone have had DST for 105 years. Of course, I could make an educated guess - from your name - which of those countries you live in.

You voluntarily give away a lot of information about yourself.

Anyway - your problem would appear to be either with your installation or is specific to your country. That's assuming that when you installed Windows you supplied your location correctly. If not, it can't know when your DST starts.


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#12
March 29, 2020 at 10:29:25
re: "How do I get that fixed, and not just this time, but every time, on a Windows 10 machine ?"

Have you checked this setting? If it is set to Off, turn it On.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7f...

message edited by DerbyDad03


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#13
March 29, 2020 at 11:28:48
All machines I have had at home, work, and other family have properly kept daylight savings time.
New York Area.
Windows 95, 98, 2000, ME, XP, Vista, 7, 10 all have done it correctly through the years.
A also suggest that you look at your regional settings and DST settings in both Windows and in your BIOS.

You have to be a little bit crazy to keep you from going insane.


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#14
March 29, 2020 at 12:06:49
"my OTHER Windows 10 has the same issue"

I don't know when the change to use DST was made in your country, but in 2007, the fall change in the US was extended to just past Halloween so the kiddies wouldn't have to trick-or-treat in the dark (even though it wasn't an issue prior to 2007). Some say it was due to the candy lobby. :)
https://www.brit.co/the-reason-dayl...

This time change was addressed in a Windows update.


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#15
March 29, 2020 at 12:10:51
Looge,

If you have Windows 10 set to change DST automatically, and
have your location set to a place that observes DST, then I am
confident it will change DST properly.

If you just installed Windows, I'm pretty sure it has no way of
knowing whether the time in the BIOS is local time or UT,
unless you are in the zero time zone. You might be able to
tell Windows which your BIOS is set to-- I saw something
recently that did that. Maybe it was a Linux install. But that
is just a one-time thing.

-- Jeff, in Minneapolis


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#16
March 29, 2020 at 12:15:18
riider,

Trick-or-treating begins at nightfall, like 4th of July fireworks.

-- Jeff, in Minneapolis


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#17
March 29, 2020 at 13:01:47
re: Trick-or-treating begins at nightfall,

It begins earlier for some of the little ones where I live.

In Point Barrow, AK "nightfall" might work in 2020 (Saturday) but in other years it could be a problem. With sunset occurring just a few minutes after 5PM, many folks won't be home from work yet.

message edited by DerbyDad03


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#18
March 29, 2020 at 14:32:31
"Trick-or-treating begins at nightfall, like 4th of July fireworks"

Then why did Bush make the time change for the "safety of the children"? In the city where I live, there's no "beggar's night" & there are designated trick-or treat hours, generally 5PM-8PM.

Do the Somalis in your town trick-or-treat? Just wondering...


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#19
March 29, 2020 at 15:30:09
Likely the bible belt types got overly concerned that their little darlings would be captured by the witches/warlocks and ghouls if they were out too late... And he relied heavily on their (bible belt types) support. for election and so on...

Witches/Warlocks and ghouls etc. come out much later - usually after 8.30-9.00pm and hang about until sunrise... Then they turn into model citizens...


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#20
March 29, 2020 at 16:07:55
There, fixed it for you.

Witches/Warlocks and ghouls etc. come out much later - usually after 8.30-9.00pm and hang about until sunrise... Then they turn into model citizens politicians...


message edited by DerbyDad03


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#21
March 29, 2020 at 16:34:31
Thank you DD for the “korrektshun/phyx...”

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#22
March 29, 2020 at 17:17:41
> Do the Somalis in your town trick-or-treat?

I don't know. I lived in the same general neighborhood that they
are mostly centered around, for 29-2/3 years, but I was in an
apartment building with a locked front door, so I usually didn't
know who came to the door unless they pushed my button in
the panel of buttons. I think there was a pumpkin outside the
door at least one year, but everywhere I know of, trick-or-treating
has nearly vanished compared to what it was in the 1960s, and
1970s, when I last handed out candy. It had severely declined
even back then.

Amazingly, fourth of July fireworks are better than when I was
a kid, because a lot of work was put into improving them for the
US bicentennial in 1976. And they continued to improve since.
It gets dark here right at 10 pm on the 4th of July, so that is
when the fireworks start.

-- Jeff, in Minneapolis


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#23
March 29, 2020 at 21:07:26
DST time of year change was to save energy as I remember it so people would not need to put on their lights as soon. Personally I rarely would be in a room without the lights on for any length of time even in the morning or noon but that is the reason as I remember it.

You have to be a little bit crazy to keep you from going insane.


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#24
March 30, 2020 at 02:06:17
Turns out it's another Windows 10 bug. Who had figured ?

https://www.howtogeek.com/fyi/some-...

So, the guys at Microsoft haven't foreseen that some Windows machines are actually down, at the exact moment of switch of the hours. That is the case for my machines. That's actually irony, because I know there are people that would think of turning machines off, during such changes in hours, in particular the one where the hours are turned backwards.

Oh, both of my Windows 10 are still wrong ... and they have the latest patches. In fact, I installed Windows 10 in january, this year.

I mean, it's 2020, if it ain't fixed by now, it'll never be. Luckily, the EU is thinking of abandoning this idiot thing as a whole, and keep either summer or winter time all year.

message edited by Looge


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#25
March 30, 2020 at 02:33:58
All of my Windows machines were down at the exact moment of the switch of the hours. They still updated the time (as did every other device in my house).

I guess you're just unlucky.


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#26
March 30, 2020 at 02:38:36
No, luck is a concept that doesn't exist in IT, unless %RANDOM% or $RANDOM is used, and that is a mathematical function as well.

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#27
March 30, 2020 at 03:33:00
Luckily, the EU is thinking of abandoning this idiot thing as a whole, and keep either summer or winter time all year

As long as they set it to UK time.... And leave the zero/zulu Greenwich meridian where it is today as well. The Froggies are trying to remove that back to Paris...


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#28
March 30, 2020 at 03:52:36
"No, luck is a concept that doesn't exist in IT"

You're probably correct. During my many years supporting Windows users I found that the biggest problem was always the liveware.


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#29
March 30, 2020 at 05:17:52
> As long as they set it to UK time.... And leave the zero/zulu Greenwich meridian
> where it is today as well. The Froggies are trying to remove that back to Paris...

Now you mention, Greenwich isn't in the EU anymore.

But, that isn't a problem here ...

LOL, Paris Meridian Time ... no, wait, that must be in French then.

message edited by Looge


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#30
March 30, 2020 at 05:23:30
> You're probably correct. During my many years supporting
> Windows users I found that the biggest problem was
> always the liveware.

Yes ... but it's not always that simple. There is something called "user-friendly software". That is software that is actually trying to help people, to get it working. In the end, software is intended to be used by users - well, user software is.

But some programmers don't acknowledge that, and think every user is on the same level as the programmer.

message edited by Looge


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#31
March 31, 2020 at 14:33:57
> If you have Windows 10 set to change DST automatically, and
> have your location set to a place that observes DST, then I am
> confident it will change DST properly.

It's actually enabled
I think all countries in my timezone use DST, and therefor this setting is just enabled by default, and never ever changes.

The "Date and Time" screen clearly states DST is enabled, and it even announces when (25th of october) it is going to do what: set to go back 1 hour.

But now, still, the time is off

> If you just installed Windows, I'm pretty sure it has no way of
> knowing whether the time in the BIOS is local time or UT,
> unless you are in the zero time zone. You might be able to
> tell Windows which your BIOS is set to-- I saw something
> recently that did that. Maybe it was a Linux install. But that
> is just a one-time thing.

What is "UT" ?

message edited by Looge


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#32
March 31, 2020 at 14:37:55
> I don't know when the change to use DST was made in your country,

Early 20th century, apparently.

Not sure which fake reason they used back then to have it implemented, maybe the candle-industry was pushing it.

> but in 2007, the fall change in the US was extended to just past
>Halloween so the kiddies wouldn't have to trick-or-treat in the
>dark (even though it wasn't an issue prior to 2007). Some say it
> was due to the candy lobby. :)
> https://www.brit.co/the-reason-dayl...
>
> This time change was addressed in a Windows update.
>

That was a very early Windows update for us then, Bill Gates wasn't born yet

message edited by Looge


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#33
March 31, 2020 at 14:45:25
Wot is UT....

https://www.timeanddate.com/time/un...


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#34
March 31, 2020 at 14:47:12
So, I'll need to take some astronomy classes first, to get my hour correct in Windows ?

Seems like it's also 1 hour off UT then. Now what ?

message edited by Looge


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#35
March 31, 2020 at 15:22:00
DST was initiated in Europe (Germany & UK) during WW1 - in 1916..

The UK has maintained the switch Spring/Fall and ever since. I think Germany (at least) dropped it after WW1 and re-introduced it WW2...

https://www.timeanddate.com/time/eu...

https://www.timeanddate.com/time/ch...

and USA history:

https://www.timeanddate.com/time/us...

I wouldn't worry about studying astronomy... unless it's something you simply must, really want to. Lots of other things to get across and leave astronomy to those who are really into it...

The NPL takes care of time - and assortment of standards and assorted measurements in the UK - and likely there is are equivalents elsewhere too?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natio...


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#36
March 31, 2020 at 15:31:03
Ow, wait, it's april 1 now. Well, not on my Windows 10 machine, but it is on this Windows 7 machine.

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#37
March 31, 2020 at 15:31:58
When I said "UT" I really meant "UTC", or Coordinated Universal Time,
but in a generalized way. Essentially GMT without the mention of
Greenwich. My vague recollection is that the time kept in computer
BIOS has usually been set to UTC. That makes time stamps on files
and on communications between computers in different time zones
simpler than having each computer use the time of the zone it is in.

If you installed Windows recently, then you might not have told it your
BIOS is set to local time rather than UTC. That could account for the
hour difference. But I don't see a way to do that in Windows. I think
I did just recently see a setting for it in a version of Linux.

-- Jeff, in Minneapolis


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#38
March 31, 2020 at 15:34:55
Since you insist, I will have a look in my BIOS :)

It seems like the Windows settings are all correct, except for the actual time :)


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#39
March 31, 2020 at 15:42:57
There's no DST or timezone setting in my BIOS

You can set the hour, yes, but I doubt that is how people update DST in Windows 10


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#40
March 31, 2020 at 16:04:40
Yup... either you do it manually these days - or use something like windoze to do it for you...?

So long since I played with DOS and PC bios systems, I can't recall exactly what we dun in those early days of a 286 and so on...

I think DOS did it for you wayback then...?


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#41
March 31, 2020 at 17:17:26
"...can't recall exactly what we dun in those early days of a 286 and so on...

I think DOS did it for you wayback then...?"

Nope. DOS has no provision for setting/changing time automatically. The user changed it manually or a TSR program could do it for you. The original version of the IBM PC & XT (without an add-on card) even forces a time input every time the machine is booted.

"Channeling the spirit of jboy..."

message edited by T-R-A


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#42
April 1, 2020 at 00:29:21
> Yup... either you do it manually these days - or use something like windoze to do it for you...?

Manually ? In 2020 ?

Windows is not that bad :)


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#43
April 1, 2020 at 00:30:36
Just found something interesting:

You know the server that is listed on which he retrieves the time ?
Well, I can't ping to it. He says the host is unknown.


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#44
April 1, 2020 at 02:08:51
If your configured time server is incorrect that would certainly explain why you have problems updating the time. But it is very common for servers not to respond to ping requests. This is one defence against DOS attacks.

The real test is whether the time updates when you click the "Sync now" button.


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#45
April 1, 2020 at 04:38:13
Instead of ping, might tracert work?

By "work" I mean not be blocked like ping might be. Obviously, the server has to be at the end of the route.

message edited by DerbyDad03


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#46
April 1, 2020 at 05:01:29
Tracert epends upon ICMP echo requests, as does ping. If the remote server is configured to not respond to such requests neither utility will detect the server. When, as in this case, a server is there o fulfil a specific function the best test is to try it with that function - in this case, try updating the time from it.

I'm pretty certain that time.windows.com blocks such requests.


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#47
April 1, 2020 at 05:16:17
> The real test is whether the time updates when you click the "Sync now" button.

I think we can see where this is going now
As my Ping fails, this also fails .. It states : "The peer is unresolved."

This is time.windows.com by the way, which must be the default server. So, it's not a config issue

message edited by Looge


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#48
April 1, 2020 at 05:36:08
That sounds like a fault with your DNS setup. I have no difficulty resolving time.windows.com and it updates my time correctly. (I tested this by deliberately setting the time incorrectly, the doing a "Sync time".)

I think you need to check your network configuration and maybe change your DNS server, or possibly the time server.


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#49
April 1, 2020 at 17:14:23
ijack:

re: "Tracert depends upon ICMP echo requests, as does ping....
I'm pretty certain that time.windows.com blocks such requests.
"

Here are my results to time.windows.com

tracert time.windows.com

Tracing route to time.microsoft.akadns.net [51.105.208.173]
over a maximum of 30 hops:

1 <1 ms <1 ms <1 ms 192.168.0.1
2 8 ms 9 ms 11 ms 142.254.218.97
3 30 ms 22 ms 310 ms agg63.irndnyaf01h.northeast.rr.com [24.58.232.233]
4 11 ms 11 ms 11 ms agg52.hnrtnyaf02r.northeast.rr.com [24.58.52.24]
5 19 ms 23 ms 23 ms be28.albynyyf01r.northeast.rr.com [24.58.32.70]
6 33 ms 31 ms 31 ms bu-ether16.nycmny837aw-bcr00.tbone.rr.com [66.109.6.74]
7 25 ms 31 ms 25 ms 66.109.1.59
8 25 ms 25 ms 33 ms 24.27.236.115
9 27 ms 26 ms 27 ms ae21-0.ear02.ewr30.ntwk.msn.net [104.44.24.51]
10 103 ms 104 ms 103 ms be-22-0.ibr01.ewr30.ntwk.msn.net [104.44.32.116]
11 104 ms 104 ms 104 ms be-4-0.ibr01.sxl71.ntwk.msn.net [104.44.17.153]
12 104 ms 103 ms 103 ms be-7-0.ibr01.dub08.ntwk.msn.net [104.44.16.117]
13 104 ms 104 ms 105 ms be-8-0.ibr01.ams21.ntwk.msn.net [104.44.19.213]
14 104 ms 102 ms 103 ms ae102-0.icr02.ams21.ntwk.msn.net [104.44.22.236]
15 * * * Request timed out.
16 * * * Request timed out.
17 * * * Request timed out.
18 * * * Request timed out.
19 * * * Request timed out.
20 * * * Request timed out.
21 * * * Request timed out.
22 * * * Request timed out.
23 * * * Request timed out.
24 * * * Request timed out.
25 * * * Request timed out.
26 * * * Request timed out.
27 * * * Request timed out.
28 * * * Request timed out.
29 * * * Request timed out.
30 * * * Request timed out.

Trace complete.

On the other hand, here are my results to time.nist.gov, which actually completed the trip:

tracert time.nist.gov

Tracing route to ntp1.glb.nist.gov [2610:20:6f15:15::27]
over a maximum of 30 hops:

1 66 ms 6 ms 6 ms 2604:6000:76c8:d700:42b8:9aff:fed6:a42c
2 17 ms 16 ms 13 ms 2604:6000:404:54::1
3 12 ms 10 ms 10 ms 2604:6000:0:4:0:2006:0:10a6
4 10 ms 11 ms 10 ms 2604:6000:0:4:0:2006:0:21c6
5 19 ms 15 ms 16 ms 2604:6000:0:4::cc
6 27 ms 23 ms 23 ms 2001:1998:0:4::82
7 22 ms 23 ms 23 ms 2001:1998:0:4::ee
8 22 ms 23 ms 22 ms 10gigabitethernet3-19.core2.chi1.he.net [2001:470:0:241::1]
9 48 ms 22 ms 32 ms level3-as3356.100gigabitethernet12-1.core2.chi1.he.net [2001:470:0:3e2::2]
10 23 ms 23 ms 23 ms lo-0-v6.ear4.Chicago2.Level3.net [2001:1900::3:1af]
11 22 ms 25 ms 23 ms 2001:1900:4:3::516
12 46 ms 45 ms 48 ms 2001:428::205:171:203:157
13 55 ms 64 ms 48 ms 2001:428:2402:10:0:139:0:2
14 46 ms 46 ms 47 ms time-d-g.nist.gov [2610:20:6f15:15::27]

Trace complete.


message edited by DerbyDad03


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#50
April 1, 2020 at 17:35:51
OK, this is weird, at least to me.

On the Date & Time dialog available through Settings...Date & Time (where the Sync Now button is) it says:

Time Server: time.windows.com

However, on the Control Panel app... Date and Time...Internet Time tab It says:

This computer is set to automatically syncronize with 'time.nist.gov'.

If I click the "Change settings" button there is a drop down displaying time.nist.gov. The other drop down choice is time.windows.com.

Why would Settings Date & Time and Control Panel Date & Time show 2 different servers?

Does it automatically sync with time.nist.gov but Sync Now with time.windows.com?

message edited by DerbyDad03


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#51
April 1, 2020 at 22:40:32
I've no idea why there is that discrepancy. Both of those addresses point to pools of time servers which will resolve to one near you on a round robin basis.

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#52
April 2, 2020 at 04:17:05
Well, maybe the fact that the names of the time servers are stored in 2 different locations will help Looge in some manner. Give him something else to investigate.

message edited by DerbyDad03


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#53
April 2, 2020 at 05:21:10
erm... perhaps this is an example of multiple parallel universes colliding... and intermingling a little... Normally they don't and thus one isn't aware of the existence of the other parallel universes...

Or maybe it's a behind the scene effort by the Chinese to confuse the west's IT systems; and thus render infrastructure vulnerable to take over, attack and shutdown - and allow them to take over the world. All this using their skillfully launched attack via the coronavirus to distract the rest of the world, and divert resources; and even to disable their entire defense forces and systems various...


Retires to kitchen for another swig of essential medicine - aka best quality kooking sherry...


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#54
April 2, 2020 at 08:35:23
I'm really baffled now. I checked those two places on one of my computers and both said "time.windows.com". "time.nst.gov" was an option on the dropdown in "Internet time", so I selected that and it changed to that in both places. Changing back to the default "time.windows.com" again changed it in both places.

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#55
April 2, 2020 at 09:07:51
re' #54

see my #53 - for the most (un)likely explanation...

Take your pick...

Retires for another sip or three of kooking sherry...


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#56
April 2, 2020 at 11:35:45
You're thinking way too far ... time.windows.com is not pinging

And all the rest is working :)

For the record I can tell that there are Events raised, but they are of level "Warning". And they are indeed stating the same:

DNS resolution error on 'time.windows.com'
Now, I don't have a DNS, I just have a modified HOSTS file


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#57
April 2, 2020 at 11:42:56
> Well, maybe the fact that the names of the time servers are stored in 2 different
> locations will help Looge in some manner. Give him something else to
> investigate.

I saw that as well somewhere, but the other one may be blocked as well ..

EDIT :time.nst.gov isn't working either, but that one is not in my hosts file

message edited by Looge


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#58
April 2, 2020 at 11:45:35
DerbyDad, check your registry, I saw the NST.GOV one in there somewhere. Just scan it entirely

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#59
April 2, 2020 at 14:39:42
re: "You're thinking way too far ... time.windows.com is not pinging
And all the rest is working :)"

Who are you talking to? A small reference to the post that you are responding to (or a name) might help.

message edited by DerbyDad03


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#60
April 2, 2020 at 14:53:38
re: "DerbyDad, check your registry, I saw the NST.GOV one in there somewhere. Just scan it entirely"

And what would I do with it when I find it?

message edited by DerbyDad03


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#61
April 2, 2020 at 15:28:16
> Who are you talking to? A small reference to the post that you are
> responding to (or a name) might help.

It would, I have proposed that to computing.net, but it still is not working that way.


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#62
April 2, 2020 at 15:32:19
> And what would I do with it when I find it?

Maybe answer a question raised by a DerbyDad03 ?



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#63
April 2, 2020 at 15:41:41
> And what would I do with it when I find it?
Maybe answer a question raised by a DerbyDad03 ?

It was DerbyDad03 (me) that asked "And what would I do with it when I find it?"

So I'll ask again: And what would I do with it when I find it?

message edited by DerbyDad03


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#64
April 2, 2020 at 15:44:54
> Who are you talking to? A small reference to the post that you are
> responding to (or a name) might help.

It would, I have proposed that to computing.net, but it still is not working that way.

You can't always expect others to do things for you. Sometimes you've got to take the bull by the horns.

In this case, that's spelled:

Ctrl-c, Ctrl-v

(or a couple of right-clicks on a mouse)

message edited by DerbyDad03


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#65
April 3, 2020 at 00:53:08
So, the issue in the hosts file. If somebody is in need of having a Best Answer (cause I can't select that on my own post), state something smart about time.windows.com being in my hosts file.

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#66
April 3, 2020 at 04:27:12
Looge,

Is that in fact the answer? time.windows.com was in your hosts file,
so naturally it couldn't be accessed?

DerbyDad03,

I think that Looge was suggesting that the presence of NST.GOV
in your Registry might somehow lead to answers to some of the
questions you raised in reply #50.

-- Jeff, in Minneapolis


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#67
April 3, 2020 at 05:25:44
Time.nst.gov will be found in the registry because it's one of the two default choices for time server. This is perfectly normal.

As for the hosts file, unless someone who doesn't know what they are doing has been messing with it, I can't think what possible bearing it has on the problem. Incorrect edits of the hosts file, or the registry, can cause all sorts of problems. They are best left alone unless you are very sure of what you are doing.


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#68
April 3, 2020 at 07:35:11
Jeff:

"I think that Looge was suggesting that the presence of NST.GOV in your Registry might somehow lead to answers to some of the questions you raised in reply #50."

"Somehow lead" doesn't work for me.

You can lead a man to the registry but you can't make him hack it. ;-)

I'm not sure what finding mst.gov in the registry would do for me/tell me as far as the impact of having 2 different servers in those 2 places. Other than the user configurations I did after receiving the system, Windows was set up by Dell.

In any case, I don't have a time issue, so I'm not going to mess with anything.

message edited by DerbyDad03


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#69
April 3, 2020 at 08:18:08
There's a lot to be said for the "if ain't broke - don't phyxe it..." philosophy

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#70
April 3, 2020 at 08:20:19
A little learning ....

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#71
April 4, 2020 at 04:04:31
"state something smart about time.windows.com being in my hosts file"

Never, ever put entries for computers that you don't control in the local hosts file (unless you want to block access to them). IP addresses can change at any time and should never be cached for longer than the record's TTL (normally between 1 hour and 1 day). And when you are dealing with a name (like time.windows.com) that doesn't point to a single computer, it is even more foolish to hard code an IP address.

If you don't understand DNS, what the record's TTL means, and how it works, don't mess with it; it's one of the easier ways to screw up your network.

A little learning is a dangerous thing.


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#72
April 4, 2020 at 04:37:45
ijack,

If a little learning is a dangerous thing, what does your response #70 mean?

(Although there was nothing to use as a reference, I took it to mean that finding nst.gov in the registry might result in "a little learning", which I took to be a good thing.)


message edited by DerbyDad03


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#73
April 4, 2020 at 05:15:41
Ah, no. It was shorthand for the full saying.

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#74
April 4, 2020 at 05:44:13
I interpreted reply #70 as short for the full familiar expression.

However... I don't understand reply #71. Wanting to block access is the
usual reason for putting something in the hosts file. I used it for quite a
while to block cookies from advertising and tracking sites. I don't use it
now because I no longer have the computer I had the hosts file on, and
just didn't get around to making and installing a new one. Yet.

Okay, so I don't know what I'm doing. That won't hurt anything.

-- Jeff, in Minneapolis


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#75
April 4, 2020 at 06:42:31
"That was a very early Windows update for us then, Bill Gates wasn't born yet"

Clearly a reading comprehension problem.

The "fall-back" DST time change in the USA used to be earlier in October. In 2007, the timing of the fall-back change was moved until the Sunday after Halloween (Oct 31st). This 2007 change was addressed in a Windows Update so that computer clocks didn't have to be changed manually.

I don't know how you manage your updates, if you regularly review & install optional updates, or if an update was even created for your region (although I suspect one was). Here's what Microsoft has to say:
Daylight Saving Time & Time Zone
Daylight Saving Time Help and Support


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#76
April 4, 2020 at 06:51:04
Blocking sites, or making entries for computers local to your network, are the only good reasons to make entries in the local hosts file. You block a site by giving it a false address, typically 127.0.0.1 (assuming you don't have a web server running on your PC). It can also be convenient to put entries for local computers there as, unless you are running a DNS server - other than a caching one - one your network they won't have entries anywhere. So that let's you refer to them by name - any name you choose.

Where the "little learning" comes in is that some people have heard about the local hosts file and think it clever to put entries for external servers there, the theory being that this speeds up DNS lookups. The problem arises should the person controlling the remote server decide to change its IP address (it happens! - for example when moving to new hardware); then the address in the hosts file is invalid and the remote server becomes unreachable.

It's complicated more in this case by the fact that "time.microsft.com" doesn't refer to any single server. It's a pool of servers and when that name is queried it will randomly return the address of any of the servers in the pool. It's quite likely in such a case that a particular server may be taken out of the pool (for maintenance or, again, when moving to new hardware); if you use proper DNS lookups this will be totally transparent - that address just won't be returned to you when you query the name. But if you entered that address in a local hosts file then, yet again, you are going nowhere.


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#77
April 4, 2020 at 08:37:48
What are you guys considering the "full saying"?

"A little learning is a dangerous thing."

or Pope's full thoughts on the matter:

"A little learning is a dangerous thing;
drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring:
there shallow draughts intoxicate the brain,
and drinking largely sobers us again."

Just leaving the reader with "A little learning is a dangerous thing" can impart the wrong impression.

A "little learning" is most often a good thing, not a dangerous thing.

I do woodworking. I offer a "little learning" to friends and family all the time. I don't start off teaching them how to cut a cove on a table saw but I will teach them to pre-drill before driving a screw.

Little tips, especially safety tips, can be extremely useful (actually required) and lead to "bigger learning" later on.

It's not the "little learnings" that are dangerous, it's what the student does with that learning that matters.

It's the user that can be a danger, not the lesson.


message edited by DerbyDad03


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#78
April 4, 2020 at 08:48:14
Well, the full quote just reinforces the saying. Either drink deep of the spring of knowledge or don't taste it at all.

With particular respect to computers it's a very apposite saying. Many years of supporting personal computers taught me that there are many people (those with a little learning) who think they know better than the experts who have drunk deep of the Pieran spring. The biggest problems always arose not from faulty hardware or software bugs but from those who "knew it all".

There's a big difference between properly supervised training and people who read something on the Internet and then try it out without really understanding what they are doing. A good example would be updating BIOS; people read about it, try, and brick their computers. It's actually seldom needed unless there is a specific problem to be addressed. And when you do it you need to know exactly what to do to minimize the risk, and to be aware of that risk. Full knowledge of the task in hand rather than "a little learning".


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#79
April 4, 2020 at 16:13:35
I mostly agree with ijack's use of the expression.
By :"A little learning ...." he clearly meant BOTH
"A little learning is a dangerous thing" AND

"A little learning is a dangerous thing;
drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring:
there shallow draughts intoxicate the brain,
and drinking largely sobers us again."

Which just explains the meaning of the first line.

What I don't agree with is the implication that it is
either-or. One extreme or the other. All learning is
potentially valuable, and all learning is potentially
dangerous. There may not be such a thing as
understanding any subject completely, so all actions
have to be taken based on incomplete knowledge.
A baby knows enough to stick things in its mouth,
and learns by trial and error whether to stick that
particular thing in its mouth again. Dangerous, but
that's how we survive.

-- Jeff, in Minneapolis

message edited by Jeff Root


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#80
April 4, 2020 at 16:27:18
Such is the nature of a conversation - be it face to face - one to one, or in groups - that the main topic (anyone remember wot it woz...) has evolved into philosophical and literature themes.

Interesting - especially as I never knew the source of "a little learning... etc." until now.

So tak to DD03 - I has learned sumat gnu... (as opposed to relearning/discovering sumat gnu...)


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#81
April 4, 2020 at 19:05:52
Imagine if nobody did anything until they had drunk deep from the spring of knowledge.

Imagine if everyone refused to take what they've learned so far and didn't attempt to apply it until they had learned all that there was to learn.

Earlier, I said:

It's not the "little learnings" that are dangerous, it's what the student does with that learning that matters.
It's the user that can be a danger, not the lesson.

Your response, in part, was:

...people who read something on the Internet and then try it out without really understanding what they are doing.

Thank you for agreeing with me. "It's the user that can be a danger, not the lesson."

Tell me, did you begin to apply and build on your earliest "little learnings" soon after you learned them or did you wait until you had drunk deep before started helping people? My guess is that you started early and did a pretty good job with the tools you had available. Now, you can assuredly do even better, but I'm also sure that you didn't do a lot of harm along the way.

Once again, "It's the user that can be a danger, not the lesson."

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#82
April 4, 2020 at 23:05:17
If you mean before I started helping people with their computer problems, my company sent me on an intensive course on computer maintenance before I was let loose on end users. And I certainly wouldn't have tried to help them on any subject without doing the appropriate research.

We do a lot of things in life that are dangerous - for example, every time we drive a car. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't do it, just that we should be aware of the dangers. In the current case, putting entries in the local hosts file can be dangerous to the health of your network. Don't do it because some guy on the Internet said so (a little learning), but because you understand what it does, how DNS works, and the implications of that (drink deep). The dangers are even more evident when it comes to editing the registry or updating BIOS.

I fear you are confusing structured learning with "a little learning". Would I drive a car when someone has told me that pressing the accelerator pedal makes it go forward but hasn't explained the purpose of the clutch and brake pedals and the gear lever? I hope not. Would I take a course of lessons where an instructor first explained the purpose of these controls and then supervised me and explained further things as I practised using this knowledge? Yes, of course. But I would hope that instructor has more than a little learning!


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