Problems cloning a WinXP to a larger disk

Samsung Sp0802n 80gb hard drive
January 27, 2011 at 06:32:39
Specs: Windows XP SP3, 2.5 GB
Greetings, folks.

I'm having an issue cloning Win XP, SP3 from a Western Digital 13.6GB WD136AA drive to a Samsung 80GB SP0822N.

I'm no techno-idiot and I have successfully cloned this OS from a 6GB to the WD drive when XP went from SP2 to SP3, but this time something is totally failing. Each time, not only will the new drive not boot, but when I go into recovery console to try fixmbr or fixboot, it won't even show a windows installation, AND if I try to view the directory list, it says the directory is unreadable or corrupt. Also each time after attempting to clone, the space available on the 80GB drops down to 30GB, requiring me to use Samsung's ESTool to reset it to 80GB.

I have tried cloning using Samsung's Disk Manager, Clonezilla, CloneXX and DriveImageXML. I haven't tried True Image, b/c frankly I don't want to drop that kind of money on something I would use very intermittently (plus I doubt it would work since I have had the exact same issue with each other clone program).

I have run chkdsk on both disks and have run Samsung's ESTool 3.1 full disk check (with 5 loops) to see if either disk is bad. Both have come up clean.

Could the fact that the 13.6GB is practically full (less than 1GB left) have any effect on this? Any other thoughts would be GREATLY appreciated as I really want to avoid having to do a clean install of XP and having to reset everything.

Thanks for the help.


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#1
January 27, 2011 at 09:11:33
I see you're going from less than 32GB to greater than 32GB. Is XP installed on a FAT32 partition or NTFS?

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#2
January 27, 2011 at 20:46:07
If it's not the fat32/NTFS thing:

A 6 and 13 gig hard drives are some pretty old hardware. Is the motherboard they were attached to also aged? If so, it's possible the bios isn't seeing the 80 properly.

Also, check WD's site for cloning software. I forget what they have now but it's a free download and as long as one of the drives is a WD it should work. I've also got a floppy disk image of the installation disk that would have come with that WD drive, including whatever cloning software they were using at the time.

The Disk Manager is probably too old for that drive.

The mantra of the aging hippie--"Power to the government, right on"


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#3
January 28, 2011 at 09:28:44
@mickliq - I'm assuming you mean on the source disk, and it is NTFS. Both disks are formatted NTFS, so it shouldn't be a translation issue.

@DAVEINCAPS Yes, it is some older hardware. I built the machine at least 5 years ago. The mobo is certainly capable of an 80GB drive as I had a secondary 80GB drive installed on their before and also have a 250GB hooked up as well. The SP0822N is 7200rpm, which I really want for a system disk.

And yes, the Disk Manager may be too old, but that's no reason Clonezilla or DriveImageXML or CloneXX should work.

On a side note, I had misinterpreted the jumper configs for 32GB limitation. Once I fixed that and ran Clonezilla, I have a Windows installation to work with that Repair Console will recognize, but won't boot. I ran fixmbr and fixboot and bootcfg /repair but still can't boot. Doing some research now...


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#4
January 28, 2011 at 10:21:03
"I built the machine at least 5 years ago. The mobo is certainly capable of an 80GB drive as I had a secondary 80GB drive installed on their before and also have a 250GB hooked up as well."

"Also each time after attempting to clone, the space available on the 80GB drops down to 30GB, requiring me to use Samsung's ESTool to reset it to 80GB."

Was that after you had discovered this, or before:

"On a side note, I had misinterpreted the jumper configs for 32GB limitation. Once I fixed that...... "

If the cloning software is detecting the size of the drive improperly, before you clone, or if the cloning software is detecting the size of the 80gb drive correctly but the bios is detecting the size of the drive incorrectly after you cloned, then there's no guarantee the resulting cloned drive will boot normally.

You must fix that problem. The most likely cause of that is incorrect settings in the bios Setup, assuming you do not have a jumper installed on pins on the drive that limits it to being detected as a 3x gb drive.

Regarding the incorrect detected capacity of the 80gb drive, make sure that the bios Setup for the mboard has the drive detection set to Auto by the method Auto or LBA for all drive connections, or load bios defaults which will probably do that by default.

Otherwise it sounds like you have a problem that is causing major data corruption.

"Could the fact that the 13.6GB is practically full (less than 1GB left) have any effect on this?"

Whatever software you are using must have enough free space left on the original drive for it to work properly. See the the minimum requirements for whatever you're using.
Windows itself needs there to be at least a minimal amount of free space on the drive for it's swap file to work as it should, plus the cloning software probably needs more on top of that. One gb free space left on a 13.6 gb drive is nearing the minimum free space just Windows itself needs for the swap file to work as it was intended.

Other causes -

Most of, if not all, IDE Western Digital models have two ways they can be designated as Master - Master, single, or similar, for when it is by itself on a data cable, and Master, with Slave, for when there is another drive connected to the same data cable that is set to Slave.
That MUST be set correctly for the situation you have !

If the WD drive by itself on a data cable or both drives on the same data cable are set to Cable Select, then usually there is no problem. However, for older main chipsets / bios versions, a single drive connected to an IDE data cable may not be detected correctly unless it is connected to the END connector on a 3 connector data cable when the drive is set to Cable Select, rather than the middle connector.

Don't mix Master / Slave and Cable Select settings for two drives on the same data cable.

If either of or both drives are IDE, it / they must be connected to an 80 wire data cable.

80 wire data cables must have the proper end connector connected to the mboard IDE header - usually that's blue, but in any case it's the one farther from the middle connector on a 3 connector data cable.


Check your IDE data cables, if that applies.

It is common to un-intentionally damage IDE data cables, especially while removing them - the 80 wire ones are more likely to be damaged. What usually happens is the cable is ripped at either edge and the wires there are either damaged or severed, often right at a connector or under it's cable clamp there, where it's hard to see - if a wire is severed but it's ends are touching, the connection is intermittent, rather than being reliable.
Another common thing is for the data cable to be separated from the connector contacts a bit after you have removed a cable - there should be no gap between the data cable and the connector - if there is press the cable against the connector to eliminate the gap.
80 wire data cables are also easily damaged at either edge if the cable is sharply creased at a fold in the cable.

Try another data cable if in doubt.

80 wire data cables must have the proper end connector connected to the mboard IDE header - usually that's blue, but in any case it's the one farther from the middle connector on a 3 connector data cable.


Check your SATA data cables, if that applies
The connector on each end should "latch" into the socket on the drive and on the mboard, or on the drive controller card - it should not move when you merely brush your hand against it near the socket - if it does, mere vibration can cause a poor connection of it - use another SATA data cable that does "latch", or tape the connector in place.
(There is a slight projection or bump on one side of the outside of the connector that "latches" it into the socket - it's easily broken off or damaged)

The same thing applies for the SATA power connection.

- the ram may be experiencing a small number of errors, either because

- it has a poor connection in it's slot(s)

See response 2 in this - try cleaning the contacts on the ram modules, and making sure the modules are properly seated:
http://www.computing.net/hardware/w...

- or you have some other ram related problem

- AFTER you have tried cleaning the contacts on the ram modules, and making sure the modules are properly seated,
- run ram diagnostics - e.g. memtest86, memtest86+,
or -
If you want to try a memory diagnostic utility that takes a lot less time to run a full pass than memtest86 does, this one is pretty good - Microsoft's
Windows Memory Diagnostic:
http://oca.microsoft.com/en/windiag...
Windows Memory Diagnostic is limited to testing only the first 4 gigabytes (GB) of RAM.
It can be toggled (press T) to do a standard or a more comprehensive set of tests - use the default 6 test one first - if it passes one pass of that, use the latter one. A few of the tests in the latter set are intentionally slower.
If you don't have a floppy drive, see the Quick Start Information at that Microsoft link for how to make a bootable CD of the Windows Memory Diagnostic (you need Windiag.iso - you don't necessarily need to use the program they mention to add it to the CD).

......

You may have this problem - it can cause errors in Windows even when ram diagnostics pass .....

Some ram manufacturer's modules do not strictly adhere to the JEDEC standards that most mboards bioses use to determine ram settings.
In that case, the ram settings in the bios Setup that the bios has automatically chosen may not be correct.
Check the ram settings in your bios - the ram voltage, and the ram timing numbers - those should be the same as for the specs for the modules themselves. Often the ram voltage and timing numbers are printed on the label on the modules.

If the voltage setting or timings settings in the bios are different from the specs for the ram, change them in the bios. The timing numbers must be as close as you can get to the same, or slower timings (higher numbers = slower) - you won't notice the difference the slower settings make.

If you have a mix of different modules
- don't mix ram that different voltages are specified for - the bios will force the ram to use the lowest voltage, if "by spd" or similar is used (default settings) - ram that a higher voltage is specified for is more likely to not work properly in that situation.
- the bios settings must be those for the slowest timing settings of all the modules, or slower (higher numbers = slower).
.......

DAVEINCAPS said....

"Also, check WD's site for cloning software. I forget what they have now but it's a free download and as long as one of the drives is a WD it should work."

It's a slightly crippled version of Acronis software - as in, it can copy the entire contents of the drive to another drive, but it cannot copy the contents of individual partitions.
Seagate has MaxBlast that's essentially the same thing, a slightly crippled version of Acronis software for use only if there is a Seagate or Maxtor drive connected to the computer, and I've used it several times and it works flawlessly. After you have swapped the original drive for the cloned drive, the first time you boot from the cloned drive (the drive must be detected by the bios as having a partition that is bootable) MaxBlast has to load automatically and do a few things, and from then on the cloned drive works normally.
......

If the cloned drive is NOT detected by the bios as having a partition that is bootable, go into your bios Setup and make sure the settings are correct.

When you have more than one hard drive connected to the computer, the default settings the bios is using to determine which hard drive to try booting from first may be incorrect. If that hard drive does not have a partition that is bootable, then the bios WILL NOT try to boot from any other hard drives.

When you have more than one hard drive connected to the computer, there is either
- a list of hard drive models, often near where the Boot Order or similar settings are - the drive you need to boot from must be listed first
- or - less commonly - there is more than one hard drive listed in the Boot Order or similar list - they are often listed generically rather than according to their model - the drive you need to boot from must be listed first.


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#5
January 29, 2011 at 07:58:12
@Tubesandwires Thanks for the reply!

1.) I was having the original issues with the 32GB jumper limits set. Since then I have been able to get a visible (by repair console) Windows installation, but still no joy on booting up to it.

BIOS has been monkeyed around to try Auto and LBA options.

Have installed the two drives in the manual (jumpered) Master/Slave configuration that was run before, but still "boot drive error."

IDE cables are glorious (Vantec rounded 40 pins with pull tabs on the connectors to minimize damage to pins and cables) and installed properly, so that's not the issue.

RAM is good, clean and tested fine in Memtest86+

I'm going to try the WD site for their disk tools and see how that plays out. If that doesn't work, I'm going to try a clean install on the SP0822N to see if its even a possibility to boot to the drive or whether its somehow screwed in a way that doesn't show up on chkdsk or ESTools.

Thanks all for your input thus far!


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#6
January 29, 2011 at 10:17:38
"Have installed the two drives in the manual (jumpered) Master/Slave configuration that was run before, but still "boot drive error." "

See the info in response 4 regarding
- WD drives often having two ways Master can be set - that must be correct.

- the list of hard drive models in the bios Setup, or in the Boot Order settings, having to have the drive you want to boot from listed first.
I know from experience that Windows can be installed from the CD or DVD successfully even if that setting is not correct - you only get the "No bootable device found" or similar message after Setup has finished.

For some bioses, in certain circumstances, they will try to boot from a USB connected drive if one is plugged in, and if the drive is not bootable, the bios MAY NOT try to boot from any other device. Try unplugging all USB external drives or flash drives or memory card readers BEFORE booting the computer, if that applies.

"IDE cables are glorious ..."

It doesn't matter how glorious they are - it's common for 80 wire data cables, especially, to have broken wires. Try another data cable if you have one.


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