Few problems with an old internet rig

June 24, 2010 at 14:41:10
Specs: Windows XP SP3
Hello guys! I've found this site really useful with some of my projects so I thought I could ask some advice with few things. So I'm working on an old Compaq Deskpro pc for my friend who needs it mostly for internet surfing and some basic stuff. It has i440BX chipset and 1400Mhz Tualatin Celeron with Powerleap iP3/T adapter (originally Pentium II 450Mhz) and 768Mb of cl2@100Mhz memory. OS is slightly nLited XP SP3.

The first question is about if there is anything I can do to improve the ability to watch videos from Youtube? They are working but should be a bit smoother...only in full screen it's impossible to watch at all. Most Divx movies run smooth enough in full screen though. IE8 seems to run the vids slightly smoother than Firefox and CPU usage is around 90% with IE and around 100% with FF but when I scroll down the page so that the video is not visible on screen the CPU usage will drop around 50%. It's hard to believe that the fastest Tualatin Celly can't even handle Youtube properly so could it be up to the video card? It's ancient Ati Rage Pro Turbo AGP 2x with 8Mb of mem so nothing to brag about I know...but it's not easy to change the card because of the stupid design around the AGP slot and the back panel. So could overclocking that old card make any difference in this case?

The second concern is about NEC USB 2.0 PCI adapter which doesn't work at all in that rig. I've tried to switch the PCI slot and even removed the Compaq network card and tried the USB card in the same slot but still no signs of any life. I'm assuming that the card doesn't support PCI 2.1 specification which I think the 440bx utilizes but quick googling didn't give much information about the card. The model seems to be PI20101-6X3A with a NEC chip. So should I take a risk and buy another card which surely supports PCI 2.1 or is there anything I can do to make this one working? Obviously I am not willing to spend any more money on that old hardware than what is needed.

And the last and the least is about incompatible processor message during the boot up and the system requires of pressing F1 before it continues booting. I know it's not that bad because everything works perfectly after that and Windows recognizes the processor correctly but pressing F1 during every boot is rather annoying. Referring on a quick googling again there doesn't seem to be much I can do about it but still if someone happens to know any solution to make it a little less annoying I would appreciate that. :D


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#1
June 24, 2010 at 14:55:39
Consign it to the scap-bin!

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#2
June 24, 2010 at 15:13:56
My guess would be a better video card for the videos. Assuming an AGP slot, what is the exact model of the motherboard or exact model of the DeskPro? If it has an AGP 4X slot an ATI Radeon 9600XT has a very low power draw and good enough performance to play old games like the original Call of Duty on max or near max settings. Should be just dandy for videos.

The USB card? I really have no idea...bad card, just not compatible, etc. See if you can borrow a USB 1 card to try?

As far as the incompatible processor messge, I can only assume the BIOS simply doesn't recognize a processor that wasn't even a glimmer in anyone's eye when that DeskPro was built. Unlikely any updated BIOS would exist to solve that problem; I'd just live with it.

Hopefully someone will be of more help...

Skip


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#3
June 24, 2010 at 15:17:22
"The first question is about if there is anything I can do to improve the ability to watch videos from Youtube? "

"It's ancient Ati Rage Pro Turbo AGP 2x with 8Mb of mem so nothing to brag about I know"

That video card is the reason your Flash video is so slow. I have a Tualatin P3 @ 1.8GHz with a Radeon x1950 Pro. It easily handles fullscreen 480p and windowed 720p Flash video on YouTube...and it's running Win7.

"but it's not easy to change the card because of the stupid design around the AGP slot and the back panel. So could overclocking that old card make any difference in this case?"

I wonder if it's an NLX motherboard? That would definitely limit your video card options. The fastest NLX video cards I've seen were based on the Radeon 7000 and TNT2 chipsets. Overclocking the ATI Rage will make no difference at all.

"I'm assuming that the card doesn't support PCI 2.1 specification which I think the 440bx utilizes but quick googling didn't give much information about the card."

You're probably right. Most PCI video cards and Wi-Fi cards only work in 2.2 slots. Probably the same story with modern USB cards. However, there are plenty of older USB 2.0 cards out there that will work on a BX board. Try eBay.

And the last and the least is about incompatible processor message during the boot up and the system requires of pressing F1 before it continues booting.

The BIOS doesn't recognize the Tualatin core, but since it loads Windows after tapping F1, there's nothing to worry about.

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Related Solutions

#4
June 24, 2010 at 15:29:54
Looks like a job for jackbomb!

EDIT: I must not have refreshed the page because his response was not there when I posted mine.


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#5
June 24, 2010 at 16:37:20
".... so could it be up to the video card? It's ancient Ati Rage Pro Turbo AGP 2x with 8Mb of mem so nothing to brag about I know...but it's not easy to change the card because of the stupid design around the AGP slot and the back panel."

Thats probably your worst bottleneck to decent video performance.
That's OLD.
I have a Rage Fury (Rage 128 bit series) - 2X AGP, it has 32mb of memory - I got that in late 1999, it first came out sometime in 1998 - and several other Rage 128 bit cards.
Your video chipset is older than that.
Lots of video on the web these days will not work properly unless you have at least 64mb of video memory.

You need a better video card.
E.g.Radeon AGP cards with video chipsets previous to 9500 support 2X / 4X / 8X AGP; newer ones support only 4X / 8X.
I think you can still get Radeon 9250 AGP cards on the web.

What make and model is the mboard?
What does the AGP slot support? only 2X (probably) , or is it 2X / 4X (not likely)?

Other bottlenecks
- your main chipset probably supports UDMA 33, or at best, UDMA 66 hard drive burst speeds.
- if this has an old hard drive on it, (if you have more than one, the one Windows was installed on) does it support UDMA 33, or UDMA 66 hard drive burst speeds?

Have you checked in Device Manager - IDE Controllers - Primary IDE - Advanced Settings - to see if it's running as fast as it can on this mboard (Ultra DMA mode 2 or 4) ?

I have tried installing an PCI IDE UDMA 133 hard drive controller card on several older mboards. I didn't try it on one with a 440BX main chipset, but I did try it on one with a 440LX main chipset (the newest of the bunch) - in all cases, drives connected to the PCI card would not run any hard drive capable of UDMA 33 or greater faster than the max the main chipset could handle, so installing a drive controller card doesn't help regarding that (but the card does recognize any size of hard drive).
......

I have installed NEC chipset USB 2.0 cards on mboards not much newer than yours and they worked fine.

You must have SP1 or later updates installed in XP in order to support USB 2.0.

See the installation directions for the card - you may need to install the drivers for the NEC chipset despite the fact XP SP1 or later has USB 2.0 support - you may need to install the drivers before you install the card.
If you don't have and can't determine where to get the directions or the drivers for the card, search for drivers for the NEC chipset model.

DO NOT install any PCI card in the last slot of the PCI slots closest to the AGP slot, except a PCI video card - that slot is forced to share it's IRQ with the onboard video, and only PCI video cards are likely to not have a problem with being installed in that slot.

On older mboards like this one, the 2000 and up operating system does not have as many available IRQs because of limitations of the main chipset. Note that usually you need two available IRQs for the USB 2.0 controller card to be available from a slot, unless the onboard USB is the same brand of chip and in that case the USB 1.x of the card and the onboard USB can use the same IRQ, which isn't likely.
You may need to disable things you are not using to free up (an) IRQ(s) for the USB card.
E.g. If you're not using, or could not use, a PS/2 mouse, disable the PS/2 mouse in the bios to probably free up it's IRQ for PNP use by the operating system - USB controllers can often use that IRQ. If you're not using one (or both) Com ports, disable one or both in the bios - some USB controllers can use IRQ 3 or 4.(If you have a dial-up modem card, they often require you disable a Com port in the bios to free up IRQ 3 or 4 for the modem).

If the bios is set to PNP aware operating system - Yes, or similar, try setting that to No,. or similar, or visa versa.

If you disable the onboard USB controller in the bios, Save bios settings, load Windows at least once, then enable that in the bios, Save settings, sometimes the onboard USB will use a different IRQ than it was using before. .
Or, just disable the onboard USB controller, if you would have enough USB ports without that.

Each PCI slot has different IRQ priorities - you may need to try the USB card in several PCI slots

"And the last and the least is about incompatible processor message during the boot up and the system requires of pressing F1 before it continues booting."

I know of a 440BX mboard that has a bios with a list of possible cpus - if you can't select the one you have in the list, then you have to do similar every time you boot.
In some cases there is the same speed CPU with either a 66mhz or 100mhz bus speed - you have to pick the correct one. Since your Powerleap adapter has allowed you to use a cpu that's much faster than the bios was ever designed for, if there is no way of entering custom settings in the bios that will "stick" , you're probably stuck with having to press F1 every time you boot. .


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#6
June 24, 2010 at 17:06:51
"Looks like a job for jackbomb!"

Yeah, sure is!

Skip


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#7
June 25, 2010 at 06:50:42
Thanks for the replies! The exact model seems to be Deskpro EN Series P450/6.4 EA5 and bx chipset only supports AGP 2x and UDMA 33. The hard drive is 20Gb 7200rpm Maxtor with 2Mb of cache and despite of the chipset limitations the disk performance is good enough for normal use.

I took a few pics so u see why it's not easy to fit a normal AGP card in this rig.

http://yfrog.com/msp6070365j
http://yfrog.com/msp6070365j
http://yfrog.com/0wp6070367j

So the whole thing is far from a normal design as you can see. I found Matrox G400 single head version with 16Mb of mem for sale which seems to be the same design as the old Ati Rage. According to google it seems to be a pretty decent card for it's age but is it able to run Youtube videos? There's no need for gaming performance...the only requirement for the card is that it can run Youtube videos smoothly at least windowed if not full screen.

And about the USB card...I have fully updated Win XP but the card won't be detected at all. The card seems to be totally invisible for the whole system. I've tried the card in almost every PCI slot and disabled the onboard USB and both serial ports from Bios with no success. After all there's not much you can adjust in the Bios. This is what is found under the Advanced tab:

=Power-On Self Test=

POST Mode - QuickBoot
POST Messages - Disable
F10 Prompt - Enable
F12 Prompt - Enable
Option ROM Prompt - Enable
Remote Wakeup Boot Source - Local Hard Drive

=Onboard Devices=

Parallel Port - 378-37F, 778-77D, IRQ 7, DMA 3
Serial Port A - 3F8-3FF, IRQ 4
Serial Port B - 2F8-2FF, IRQ 3
Floppy Controller - 3F0-3F5, IRQ 6, DMA 2
Other input controller - 268-26F
Audio device - 220-22F, 388-38B, 330-331, IRQ 5, DMA 1, DMA 0

=PCI Devices=

Compaq Ethernet controller - IRQ 11
Intel IDE controller - Enabled
Intel USB controller - IRQ 11
Intel Other bridge device - Enabled
ATI VGA controller - IRQ 11

=Bus Options=

PCI Bus Mastering - Enable
PCI Reset On Warm Boot - Enable
PCI VGA Palette Snooping - Disable
ISA Back-to-Back I/O Delay - Fast
Bus Priority - PCI

=Device Options=

Printer Mode - Flexible
Num Lock State at Power-On - On
PME Wakeup Events - Enable
AGP Aperture Size - 64 MB


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#8
June 25, 2010 at 06:54:46
Just corrected the links...never mind this msg.

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#9
June 25, 2010 at 07:43:26
Well, so much for the 9600XT.

Assuming you don't want to saw off that comm port, this is gonna take some looking but I think we can locate a better card than the G400.

Edit: And yes, that is a NLX form factor card.

Skip


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#10
June 25, 2010 at 07:51:25
From the specs and directions for the subject of mine USB 2.0 PCI card with the NEC chipset....

System Requirement

PC System Environment:

IBM compatible Pentium 233 or faster
64mb ram
Microsoft Windows 98SE / ME / 2000 / XP
....

You have to install drivers for all operating systems.

The NEC chip
D720101GJ (model ?)
0746XPA02 (may not be significant)
.....

The card works fine on an Asus A7V mboard in ME and XP.
Manual - version 1.01 E533, April 2000 (they are often made a while after the mboard was first released).
Searched the pdf with: PCI - PCI 2.2

"I'm assuming that the card doesn't support PCI 2.1 specification which I think the 440bx "

Tell us the mboard make and model.

I have manuals for two Abit BH6 models, 440BX main chipset, it says PC! 2.1 in those, but they're older 440BX mboards.

I have a computer with the older of the two BH6 models. If I can find the time, I may try the card in that (I still have several of the same card).

Those mboards support AGP 1X / 2X.
Later 440BX mboards MAY have supported 4X too.

If your mboard supports 2X max, you're limited to cards that have older video chipsets that support 2X - e.g. cards with Radeon 9250 video chipsets may still be available.
If it supports 4X, then you can use any modern 4X / 8X AGP card (most if not all all 8X rated video chipsets support 4X too), but you may have to get a power supply with more capacity on the higher end.

E.g.

Radeon x!950

minimum 450W psu with 18A @ 12v
http://goodblimey.com/archives/2006...

Under Specs
450-Watt power supply or greater, 30 Amps on 12 volt rail recommended
http://www.diamondmm.com/X1950PRO51...

a x1950 card has one or two power sockets that must be hooked up to the power supply.



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#11
June 25, 2010 at 10:33:05
"I found Matrox G400 single head version with 16Mb of mem for sale which seems to be the same design as the old Ati Rage. According to google it seems to be a pretty decent card for it's age but is it able to run Youtube videos? "

Unfortunately, the fastest NLX cards were based on the Radeon 7000, a DirectX (DX) 7 GPU. You need a DX9 card with hardware pixel shading (Radeon 9500, GeForce FX) to get partial DXVA and Flash video acceleration. And you would need a DX10 card (Radeon HD 2000, GeForce 8) to get full DXVA and Flash acceleration.

You can fit a small form factor ATX AGP card in an NLX case (I've done it before), but you can easily kill the video card or motherboard (whichever you decide to...modify) in the process. And because the card can't be secured to the case, you have to be very careful plugging in the monitor.

Probably not worth the time and effort...lol

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#12
June 25, 2010 at 10:46:23
I've seen Viper 770's in a NLX motherboard but I think the chipset was an i810? Those cards had a section you could break out to fit. Pretty crappy 32Mb video card if I remember right.

Skip


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#13
June 25, 2010 at 14:08:43
Well my parents computer with a Radeon 7200 64Mb SDR card runs Youtube videos pretty smooth even in full screen. The rest of the system is Athlon XP 1700+ with 1024Mb of PC133 memory and I think it's not that superior over 1400Mhz Tualatin. So if the DX9 cards are out of question what should I look for? The more video memory or what? Would 32Mb be sufficient or do I need to look for 64Mb (harder to find for NLX)? To be honest I had never before even heard about NLX but on the other hand I don't have much experience with branded computers either.

The chip on my USB card indeed is NEC D720101GJ. I have no idea of the motherboard model but the make is obviously Compaq and it's some weird NLX form factor (new to me). Well now that I finally installed CPU-Z it says the mobo model is 0400h but I guess that's not much of a help haha. Anyways the chipset seems to be rev. C1. However as far as I know all revisions of bx support only PCI 2.1 so I guess all I can do is to buy a card that surely supports 2.1 spec and see what happens. Oh and the card that I have is tested to work properly in another rig.


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#14
June 25, 2010 at 14:20:16
"The exact model seems to be Deskpro EN Series P450/6.4 EA5 "

I can't find anything using that, or pieces of it, on the HP web site.

Tell us what the Product number is - it's probably on a label on the outside of the case. For a Compaq, it usually has nine characters, xxxxxx-xxx , often all numbers but not always.

I did look on the HP site a lot.

This may be your mboard:
partnumber = 178919-001 - may be on the white label in the picture? SP#178919-001
mboard, AGP slot at front of picture ?
http://partsurfer.hp.com/ShowPhoto....

This may be your video card, except your has 8mb of video ram installed instead of 4mb:
4mb AGP card and oddball bracket - can install more video ram ?
http://partsurfer.hp.com/ShowPhoto....



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#15
June 25, 2010 at 15:00:07
"Tell us what the Product number is - it's probably on a label on the outside of the case. For a Compaq, it usually has nine characters, xxxxxx-xxx , often all numbers but not always."

There's a sticker inside of the case where it says 179218-003. Outside of the case stands only what I wrote earlier and a Compaq serial no. which is 8927cd640040. The motherboard part number seems to be SP:400805-001. Hope this helps...though I didn't find much from the HP site either.

And about the video card there's unfortunately no bracket for adding more memory in 8Mb model.


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#16
June 25, 2010 at 15:02:41
That's a card that will work and yes, more ram can be installed. Only another 4Mb though. Compaq also used motherboards with 4Mb onboard Rage Fury and a memory slot just like the one on that card.

Like retropc said, I also used a 64Mb 7200 running on a Duron 1300 and watched Godzilla movies on Yahoo several years ago.

Skip


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#17
June 25, 2010 at 21:53:51
Going by several pictures I've found of your mboard, and the fact that jackbomb had no problem with using a small form factor AGP video card in a NLX mboard (which indicates the slot is wired up standard AGP, even if it is farther than normal from the edge of the board) , I think it's quite possible you could install an ordinary AGP card rather that an NLX one, as long as you don't mind having to run the monitor's video cable through the slot hole where the NLX card port would normally be, and you rig up something to tie down the card.
Pictures of your probable case appear to show you do NOT have a small form factor case - it's higher than that, possibly standard horizontal desktop height - standard height cards should fit, if you remove the metal end bracket from the AGP card.
Pictures of your graphics card look to me such that the board looks standard height, not shorter. To confirm that, measure the hieght of the NLX AGP board, not the metal bracket, from the contact edge to the top, and I'll compare that to that of a 9250 I have.
If I'm right, you just remove the metal bracket, plug a standard 2X capable AGP card in, in the right direction of course, run your video cable from your monitor through the hole where the longer NLX card port was, and tie down the card so it can't move up in it's AGP slot.
..........

"There's a sticker inside of the case where it says 179218-003. Outside of the case stands only what I wrote earlier and a Compaq serial no. which is 8927cd640040. The motherboard part number seems to be SP:400805-001. Hope this helps...though I didn't find much from the HP site either."

You didn't mention 8927cd640040 previously - you quoted similar that is on the USB 2.0 card.

I went here:
http://partsurfer.hp.com/search.aspx

And tried searching with:
179218-003 - nothing found - did you make a typo ?

I tried searching with:
8927cd640040.....

Serial Number : 8927CD640040
Product Number : 326552-A54
Description : DPENM P450/6.4/64/NTC EUROA5

DP - Deskpro
EN - Deskpro series
M - Minitower ? (maybe not)
P450
6.4 - gb hard drive capacity (originally)
blank - 440BX
64 - mb ram (originally)
NTC - Network card ??

Parts:
http://partsurfer.hp.com/Search.asp...

PC Board - part number = 178919-001
Motherboard (system board), with tray
http://partsurfer.hp.com/ShowPhoto....

Video card - part number = 334170-001
ATI 3D Rage Pro AGP 2X graphics board with 4MB SGRAM memory
http://partsurfer.hp.com/ShowPhoto....

(someone must have installed more video ram in it, or installed a card that already had that)

334169-001 Switching power supply - 120-240VAC input, 45-66Hz - 4 DC outputs, 200 watts

(That's a puny capacity - you will probably need to get one with more capacity - at least 250 or 300 watts if you upgrade the video card. )

less likely?

400805-001 - Motherboard (system board) with tray - Does not include processor - OBSOLETE - Replace with 162857-001; System Board

162857-001 -
Motherboard (system board), with tray assembly - Does not include processor
http://partsurfer.hp.com/ShowPhoto....
.....

I get the same parts list when I search with 326552-A54 there.
........

After doing a LOT of searching, and looking at manuals, I have come to the conclusion that HP has lost some of the info for your model. Your computer was made before Compaq merged with or was taken over by HP. HP has lost some of the info Compaq had over the years, for many old Compaq models.
HP does NOT have a Maintenance manual that covers your mboard any more, but it does have some info.

Your model is a Compaq Deskpro EN Desktop PC
(not a Deskpro EN Small Form Factor PC)
It's specific model is DPENM P450/6.4/64/NTC EUROA5 = Product number 326552-A54.

Most of the Maintenance manuals here do NOT apply to your model:
Manuals (guides, supplements, addendums, etc)
http://h20000.www2.hp.com/bizsuppor...

except this one:

Guide to Features and Upgrades
Deskpro EN series of Personal Computers
Small Form Factor and Net PC Models
http://bizsupport1.austin.hp.com/bc...

Back of case looks right - mentions Rage Pro 4mb and 8mb
.......

The Compaq ftp site still exists, but HP has lost much much of the info on it.

I did find this...

Deskpro EN Large Form Factor
Quick Reference Guide

Go to:
ftp://ftp.compaq.com/pub/
Navigate to
supportinformation/techpubs/qrg/deskproen.pdf

(This site has a program that automatically shortens http links if they're over a certain length, the shortened link is an active link to the actual URL (in most cases but sometimes the program makes mistakes and chops off the URL) but it doesn't shorten ftp or https links or make them active links you can click on - copy the ftp url line to your browser.)

178919-001 - found !
Processor board with tray

Spare part number 178919-001 may contain (motherboard) 007998-101, 007998-102, 008123-001, 008123-002, or 008123-003

NLX mboard - page 13
.....

I found this on the web:

Mentions 178919-001
Manual Name
Hewlett-Packard Compaq Deskpro EN Desktop PC series Maintenance&Service Guide: Compaq Deskpro EN Series of Personal Computers -- Chapter 3 Spare Parts
http://h20000.www2.hp.com/bc/docs/s...

But the link no longer works. HP has lost it.

I then looked on the Compaq ftp site for the 179099-003 manual pieces.
Chapter 3 IS here:
Go to:
ftp://ftp.compaq.com/pub/
Navigate to
supportinformation/techpubs/maintenance_guides/179099-003_ch3.pdf

AGP card
Page 10, board #1
#1 on page 11

Mboard, with tray (178919-001)
Page 10, board #12
#12 on page 13

Other parts of the 179099-003 Maintenance Guide:
Go to:
ftp://ftp.compaq.com/pub/
Navigate to:
supportinformation/techpubs/maintenance_guides/
.......

Compaq Deskpro Slot 1 motherboard 178919-001 007998-101
$14.00 with riser board
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...
picture zooms
.......

Configuring an Expansion Board
Shows diagrams of mboard 007998-102 and 008123-001, riser boards
http://www.elhvb.com/mobokive/Archi...

More diagrams
http://www.elhvb.com/mobokive/Archi...


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#18
June 25, 2010 at 23:24:56
I have not had Edit anymore at the top of my own posts, for most of today - anybody else seeing that?

Update - SkipCox pointed out what happened to that in a following post.
......

Regarding your USB 2.0 card. The card having a PCI 2.2 spec and the mboard having a PCI 2.1spec doesn't necessarly indicate the card can't work on your mboard. The PCI 2.2 spec is backward compatible.

I think it's more likely the card is not able to get the IRQs it wants to use.

The important thing is you must have two IRQs available, that the card can use, that are free in the operating system, in the slot you install the card in.
See Response 10 for more about that.
On a normal mboard, you DO NOT use the PCI slot next to the AGP slot for anything except a PCI video card. I don't know which PCI slot on your NLX shares it's IRQ with the AGP slot, but it would probably be either the one closest to the AGP slot, or the one farthest away from it (next to the onboard video).
Look in System information to see which IRQs are already being used before you plug in the USB card.
Shortcut - Start - Run - type: msinfo32 , click OK or press Enter.
On the left side, open up Hardware Resources and IRQs.
XP shows you which IRQs are being used, but not which ones are free (not being used) like it does in ME and previous back to Win 95. The card can probably only use free IRQs between and inc. 9 and 12 on your old mboard; some USB cards can also use 3 or 4. 12 is normally used by a PS/2 mouse.
Disable things you aren't using, if you need to, to free up more IRQs (see Response 10).
Almost all cards cannot use IRQ 7
.......

You probably need a power supply with more capacity.

Going by pictures of the power supply for you model,

part number: 334169-001

picture
http://www.memory4less.com/images/p...

Picture - zooms
http://cgi.ebay.com/Compaq-PS2013-3...

it appears to be a standard size, not a smaller size, and have the threaded screw holes in standard positions, but it's old enough that it might have oddball (proprietary) wiring for it's main connector. If it is standard sized, if there is a typical large hole in the computer case where it mounts, a new standard PS should fit fine without obstructing where the power cord plugs needs to plug in on the PS.

Standard (PS/2) power supply size - 86mm high, 150mm wide, 140mm deep, or 3 3/8" h x 5 7/8" w x 5 1/2" d , or very close to that, though the depth can be more or less for some PSs.

If the size is standard.....

Hold your cursor over the body of the main connector to see the description of the colors of the wires for pins 1 to 10, and 13 to 22:
http://www.power-on.com/ea350u.html

Compare the colors of those wires to the ones on your power supply's main connector.

Your mboard requires only a 20 pin main connector.
New power supplies often have a 24 pin connector, but the 4 on one end are detachable so that the main connector can be used with a 20 pin socket.
The wire colors and uses for pins 1 to 10 are the same for both 20 and 24 pin connectors; the wire colors and uses for pins 13 to 22 on a 24 pin connector are the same as for pins 11 to 20 on a 20 pin connector.

Your power supply may not have a white wire at pin 20 (pin 18 on a 20 pin connector) - that's not needed except for a rarely used feature of ISA slots, and even if you have ISA slots you probably don't need a wire there.

If your wiring of the main connector is standard replace it with any decent standard sized standard ATX PS with the same capacity or greater.

Don't buy an el-cheapo PS.
See response 3 in this:
http://www.computing.net/answers/ha...

I recommend you get a 300 watt power supply, or greater.

If you already have a spare standard power supply you could try, try it for fit in your case.


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#19
June 25, 2010 at 23:28:03
Since I CAN Edit my posts...

there's no need for what was in this one.


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#20
June 25, 2010 at 23:35:52
A second look finds the top two threaded holes, or possibly 3 of the 4, of your power supply should line up with those of a standard power supply.

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#21
June 25, 2010 at 23:38:12
Hey Tubes, there's a little notepad at the far right of the thumbs up/down stuff on the posts you write. I noticed the edit text was replaced by the little notepad about 9 this morning.

Skip


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#22
June 26, 2010 at 00:30:51
"Well my parents computer with a Radeon 7200 64Mb SDR card runs Youtube videos pretty smooth even in full screen."

If the processor is fast enough, you don't need hardware acceleration. My 1.8GHz Tualatin can play full screen Flash smoothly without a video driver even installed. Of course, installing the video driver greatly reduces CPU usage. The processor is on a 150MHz FSB, which helps quite a bit with Flash.

"So if the DX9 cards are out of question what should I look for? The more video memory or what? Would 32Mb be sufficient or do I need to look for 64Mb (harder to find for NLX)?"

Might help a little, but with a 100MHz FSB processor, full screen YT will be tricky without at least some Flash video acceleration. FSB speed matters because unlike with DirectShow (Divx, DVD, etc), Flash video scaling is performed by the CPU. For example, fullscreen YT on a 1920x1200 monitor would require far more CPU power than on a 1024x768 display.

Here's another thing you can try. Years ago when I still had a few Pentium II rigs hooked up to the 'net, I noticed that lowering Windows' color depth to 16-bit really helped Flash performance.
Try that.

Collection:
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Latest: Natalie Merchant - Leave Your Sleep (CD)


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#23
June 26, 2010 at 07:43:24
SkipCox

"Hey Tubes, there's a little notepad at the far right of the thumbs up/down stuff on the posts you write. I noticed the edit text was replaced by the little notepad about 9 this morning."

Thanks for the heads up. I edit my posts a lot. I have made corrections in some of the last few posts of mine.
.......

retropc

Are you beginning to understand why pip22 said "Consign it to the scap-bin!" ?

It requires a lot of work to upgrade an old system like yours, but if you'll willing to put in the time and the money....
......

You can't use AGP cards with newer video chipsets (ones that were first released later) that support only 4X or 4X / 8X on your mboard.

See Response 10 starting at....
"If your mboard supports 2X max, you're limited to cards that have older video chipsets that support 2X"

I don't know which NVidia older video chipsets support AGP 2X .

Note that ads for video cards often mention only the fastest, or faster, AGP rating(s) the card can handle.

E.g. the Radeon 9250 video chipset supports 1X / 2X / 4X / 8X AGP.
The ad may mention only 8X, or 4X / 8X.
All video chipsets that support 2X also support 1X, but 1X is often omitted because very few cards and mboards were made that support only 1X.
Most, if not all, video chipsets that support 8X also support 4X .
There are a few 4X max, 4X only video chipsets, but most 4X max rated chipsets also support 2X and 1X (all ATI 4X max rated chipsets do, that I know of).

After the Radeon 7xxx to 9xxx series, the first number is not necessarily related to when the video chipset was first released, e.g. the x1950 chipset is much newer and 4X / 8X only.

Which ATI video chipsets support what AGP speed, types of AGP slots:

Last Updated
18/02/2009
http://support.amd.com/la/kbarticle...

x1950, mentioned by jackbomb - 4X / 8X only

Comparison of ATI graphics processing units
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compar...

The older video chipsets don't support DirectX 9 features, most likely the newer of those support DirectX 8 features, and you can't use higher than DirectX 9 features in XP - DirectX 10 features are supported only in Vista and Windows 7. XP comes with DirectX 9.x, at least I'm sure it does with SP2 updates or later installed.
However, DirectX is backward compatible. If the card or the operating system doesn't support the fancier features of a higher DirectX version, you still have video, but the fancier features have simpler features substituted for the fancier ones.
........

It's probably IMPORTANT for you to upgrade your power supply.

Your power supply must have at least the minimum capacity required to support a system with the graphics card you are using installed, or the max graphics card you might install in the future.
(Onboard video - video built into the mboard - IS NOT A CARD ! )
If that info is not in the ad for the video card, you can go to the video card maker's web site and look up the specs for the model - often under system requirements - the minimum PS wattage, and, more important, the minimum amperage the PS must supply at 12v is stated. If you don't find that, any card with the same video chipset including any letters after the model number has very similar minimum PS requirements. Some power supplies have two or more +12v ratings - in that case, add those ratings to determine the total +12v current capacity.

I often search the web using:
model of video chipset including any letters after the model - minimum watt, or minimum system.

e.g. x1950 minimum watt
or
x1950 minimum system

There are many such ratings on the AMD web site.

If there is no minimum stated for several "hits" that state minimum system requirements (you may need to click on a Specifications or System Requirements tab or similar) , you probably still need at least a minimum 250 watt (output) capacity for any video chipset first released after the Radeon 7000 series.

If you're a gamer...
In most if not all cases, the max capacity rating of the PS is an intermittent rating. It's recommended that you do not load your PS to any more that 80% of that rating if you are going to be using something that puts a constant load on it, such as playing a recent game for hours on end. In that case, you multiply the min capacity stated for the system with the particular video chipset on the card by 1.25 to find the min. capacity of the PS you should get.



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#24
June 26, 2010 at 13:42:41
"Pictures of your probable case appear to show you do NOT have a small form factor case"

You're right it's not a small form factor it's a HUGE form factor. Not too compact design at all. You can compare the size with my tester machine here: http://yfrog.com/j8p6090370j Actually the AGP slot is not any farther from the edge than in a normal ATX board so that makes installing a modern video card a bit tricky since one of the onboard serial connectors is on it's way. And because most if not all modern video cards have a DVI connector on the corner it would require sawing off the serial connector which may be a little risky. However I found from my spare box some crappy Diamond Stealth III s540 AGP 1X/2X/4X card with 32Mb of mem and no DVI connector. So I sawed the corner off the card's pcb to make it fit in the Deskpro and tested it to still work in my tester after the sawing - OK. But when I threw it in the Deskpro it hanged up in the POST (Compaq logo over white background heh). Didn't let me enter the bios - nothing. So I threw back the original card and it works. Then tried the Stealth again in the tester and it still works fine! So ? Don't tell me that Compaq had done some tricks to prevent from installing any other video card than the crappy Ati Rage? Or could it be just some compatibility issues with the S3 Savage4 chip which the card has? (Edit: I really don't think it needs too much power)

"And tried searching with:
179218-003 - nothing found - did you make a typo ?"

That is exactly what the sticker says. Also there's another number in the same sticker which is "CT: L1A540C6JHF1GC" and also two barcodes. That's pretty much all I can find on the case.

From between IRQs 9 and 12 there's IRQ 10 free already and the bios won't let me disable the PS/2 mouse which indeed uses IRQ 12. Actually I also tried to disable the COM ports and the bios says they are disabled but Windows says they are still using IRQs 3 and 4. I even changed all the stuff using IRQ 11 to use IRQ 10 instead to see if it helps but no luck. Also disabled the onboard USB - no difference. The card is still totally invisible for the whole system. At the moment it's sitting in the middle one of total 5 PCI slots but I've tried it in others too.

This is how the IRQs are without modifications:
0: System timer
1: Keyboard
3: COM2
4: COM1
5: sound
6: floppy
8: System CMOS/real time clock
9: Microsoft ACPI-Compliant System
11: Rage Pro
11: Ethernet
11: Intel USB
12: PS/2 mouse
13: Numeric data processor
14: Primary IDE Channel
15: Secondary IDE Channel

About the power supply...well there's a great possibility that it won't be a bolt on either. See the pic: http://yfrog.com/j6p6090369j I've got several power supplies lying around but none of them fits. So if I can't find a PS with identical back panel layout I need to cut the case and if it still sounds easy I can tell that there's loads of metal used to manufacture this case - not easy to cut and weights like sin. :( This is getting pretty frustrating. What I was about to do in the first place was to tune up this piece of junk and pass it over to a friend for few Euros. Didn't expect so much work.

Also I tried to find out if there is any way to overclock the processor to get more bandwidth but I had to face that the onboard PLL-IC (w48c101-01h) cannot have it's settings altered by software. So no luck again.

Only significant help at the moment seems to be lowering the color depth to 16-bit as jackbomb suggested. That makes the flash videos to run smoothly in windowed mode and almost watchable in full screen. However i think my friend needs the 32-bit color because she wants to do some picture editing and scanning with this thing. Dammit.

Oh well...maybe I'll just give it to her in this condition with an advice to buy a new one as soon as she can actually pay for it. Anyways thanks a lot for Tubes! I didn't expect anyone to do so much investigation with this project. Really appreciate that.


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#25
June 26, 2010 at 17:28:38
Which one is it in the picture?
They're both quite wide.

"...Diamond Stealth III s540 AGP 1X/2X/4X card with 32Mb..."
"when I threw it in the Deskpro it hanged up in the POST (Compaq logo over white background heh). Didn't let me enter the bios - nothing. So I threw back the original card and it works. Then tried the Stealth again in the tester and it still works fine! So ?" "...S3 Savage4 chip"

"...I really don't think it needs too much power..."

It probably doesn't.


I did some searching.
It appears that's a lemon video chipset, because of firmware problems, and it may have other problems.
jackbomb said he had no problem getting a regular small form factor card (shorter height) AGP card to work in a NLX mboard AGP slot, and you probably can use a standard height one.
Do you have another AGP card to try?

Apparently

- there is a Stealth III s540 Savage 3D AGP card that supports only 2X - I don't know if it supports 1X - not all that many of them were sold.

- there is a whole bunch of different Stealth III s540 Savage 4 series AGP cards

- the Stealth III s540 Savage 4 AGP card does suppport 2X / 4X , but it doesn't support IX , at least it doesn't on some systems.
It uses 3.3v for the 4X as well as the 2X, which is unusual; usually 1.5v is used for 4X, so for that reason alone it may not work properly on some mboards.

- the Stealth III s540 Savage 4 AGP cards hang the booting on some mboards, particularly those with Via main chipsets. The problem was cured by a firmware (the card's bios) update, BUT
- Diamond Multimedia doesn't appear to have any support anymore for their older non ATI chipset cards, and links on the web that go to their http web site do not work, and even their ftp site, which requires a username and password to enter, may no longer have the s540 related files.
- S3 was bought by Via long ago. There is no www,S3.com site that has S3 video drivers, etc., anymore. Via has no support for S3 video chipsets except for those used as onboard video in their main chipsets.
- So - you are forced to look for older S3 video drivers, etc. on the web.

- booting may hang if the mboard has certain OHCI USB contollers.
(USB 1.x uses either OHCI or UHCI USB controllers). The mboard may boot fine if you disable the onboard USB controller(s) ?

- most AGP cards will display even if the bios has the Primary Video or Intialize Video First or similar setting set to PCI, but on at least some mboards, that must be set to 2X AGP or 4X AGP BEFORE you install the card (e.g. install a PCI card or use onboard video to set the settings) to produce video; 1X AGP doesn't work, at least some mboards.
.....

Savage4 supported the then-new AGP 4X although at the older 3.3 voltage specification.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S3_Savage
....

I found some firmware (video bios) updates, I don't know if they are the right ones, and flash instructions , and many drivers, if you're interested.
You would need to flash it on a system it works fine with, probably.
....

More comments later


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#26
June 26, 2010 at 20:52:35
"...it's sitting in the middle one of total 5 PCI slots but I've tried it in others too...."

That was a good thing to try.

"I even changed all the stuff using IRQ 11 to use IRQ 10 instead to see if it helps but no luck."

That was a good thing to try, there may be more cards that can use IRQ 10 rather than 11, but...

You have only 1 free usable IRQ.
I don't think the USB 2.0 card will install unless it can get two IRQs that it can use, from the same slot. It's hard to determine what IRQs the PCI card can use, unless that's in it's specs (look up the specs for the NEC chip model ?). You usually can't specify IRQs for PCI devices in Device Manager; for ISA devices, you can often choose from two or more IRQs, but you often need to switch off Use automatic settings to do that.
Most cards will not use IRQ 7 even if it's available - that (for LPT1) or IRQ 5 (for LPT2) is used by a parallel port, but most printers don't need to have an IRQ assigned to them in Win 95 and up unless you're using it in true Dos. Sometimes on older systems you can set the sound to use IRQ 7 - IRQ 5 can be used by many cards.

Devices built into the mboard often use the same IRQ, no problem, although the video slot usually uses a different IRQ. Is the network adapter built into the mboard ?

"the bios won't let me disable the PS/2 mouse which indeed uses IRQ 12"

You must not be using a PS/2 mouse. Use a serial mouse (connected to a Com port) or better still a USB mouse (all USB devices use the same IRQ, or one of 2 IRQS for a USB 2.0 controller port).
Then you must disable the PS/2 mouse in the bios, if you can - usually you can.
Some bioses do not release IRQ 12 for other use even if you try all possible ways of doing so; some bioses will auto assign it to PNP use; in others you have to change a setting to do that.

"Actually I also tried to disable the COM ports and the bios says they are disabled but Windows says they are still using IRQs 3 and 4."

If you are not using the Com port IRQs, even for an internal Dial-up modem which looks like does not apply, you may need to go into Device Manager and Disasble the Com ports - that should free up IRQ 3 and 4.

"Also disabled the onboard USB - no difference."

If you can't get the USB to use an IRQ other than what the other devices that are built into the mboard that are using the same IRQ are using, then it's not going to help to disable the onboard USB.

On my Epox mboard, which does not have anything except the USB controller built in (other than a parallel port, two USB ports, two Com ports, two PS/2 ports), in 98SE, the onboard USB's IRQ is shared with the network card (9) (that may not be ideal) and the video's IRQ is not used by any other device.
(There's a thought - can you get some device that isn't using IRQ 11 (or 10) to share IRQ 9? )
In a situation like that...
In older bioses like yours, there are often two settings for USB. You have to disable both, or the more important of the two, to free up the USB's IRQ, then you must load Windows at least once in order for Windows to recognize the IRQ the USB was using is available.
If you want to try to shift which IRQ the onboard uses, you must free up the IRQ it was using, first, load Windows at least once, and have other IRQs available, then enable the USB in the bios again. I know from doing that I can get the onboard USB to use IRQ 12, which many cards can't use, other than some network cards. .

E.g. My 98SE computer was made in Aug 1999, has a 2000 bios update version, the Epox mboard has an Award bios.

Under PNP / PCI Configuration
Assign IRQ to USB - Enable / Disable - Disable that - that may be all it takes, but you may have to disable both settings.
Under Integrated Peripherals
Onchip USB - Enable / Disable - Disable it - if only that is disabled, the IRQ the USB is using will probably not be released for other uses.

Also under PNP / PCI Configuration
Assign IRQ to VGA - Enable / Disable - that does not need to be enabled unless you need video in a true Dos mode, but disabling it may make no difference in Windows regarding what IRQ the video uses.

PNP OS installed - Yes / No - you could try setting that opposite of what it was set to.

Resources controlled by - Auto / Manual
If you select Manual, you can assign any IRQ to Legacy or PNP.
E.g. assign IRQ 3, 4, and 12 to PNP use if they're set to Legacy by default.

Slot 1 - Auto, or specify an IRQ.
Slot 2
Slot 3
Slot 4
However, assigning an IRQ doesn't guarantee that the card in a slot can use that IRQ.

The ATX mboard has 7 card slots (8 in all) - 5 PCI, 2 ISA, one slot space is shared - for either an ISA or PCI card. One PCI slot (next to the AGP slot; no onboard video) shares it's IRQ with the video. One of the other slots uses the same IRQ as the video too.
I've never been able to use all the slots - not enough IRQs. Several identical USB cards might be able to use the same IRQ, other than that, it's impossible to use them all.

Chipset Features Setup
Video bios cachable - Enable / Disable - should always be enabled.
System bios cachable - Enable / Disable - should usually be enabled on an older mboard - the mboard will boot a bit faster, if nothing else.
.......

"About the power supply...well there's a great possibility that it won't be a bolt on either. See the pic: ..."

Okay, so the case does not have the typical large hole, and the mounting is recessed a bit. Is the side of the PS facing those holes in the case a standard size ? Does the fan opening, and at least the top top holes for screws shown in your picture, line up with a regular PS ? If so, do you have or can you borrow a bimetal hole saw or two ?, to accomodate where the cord socket is on a regular PS ?
OR
If the whole case is a standard size, you could transfer the board with it's components and wiring from the regular PS to the original case, the screw holes, fan, cord socket, and red 110/220 switch would of course line up. If the mounts for the board can be rigged so the board can be mounted, you would only need to unsolder / re-solder to the red 110/220 switch and the cord socket - the fan may have a connector on the end of it's cord in both cases - if not, remove the fan along with the board from the regular PS.
E.g. if the mounts in the orgininal case don't line up with the screw holes on the regular board, saw them off on the inside, or break them off using a vicegrip, places that have electronic parts often have hollow metal spacers, or use pieces of small diameter pipe, or drill out the orginal spacers, drill holes thru the case bottom where the mounts need to be, install machine screws long enough to pass through the case exterior thru the spacers to the board, install nuts, possibly washers, next to the board.
....

"Also I tried to find out if there is any way to overclock the processor ....."

Don't bother. Your greatest bottleneck is with the video, not the cpu.


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#27
June 27, 2010 at 14:08:10
I just tried installing the USB 2.0 card that has the same NEC chip as yours in my Gigabyte 5ax (super socket 7) mboard computer, which also has the PCI 2.1 spec.
The card has a PCI 2.2 spec.

The NEC chip
D720101GJ (model ?)
0746XPA02 (may not be significant)

It installed fine !

That computer has Win 98 on it, not 98SE.
The info on the box the card came in, and the instructions sheet, doesn't mention supporting Win 98 - minimum is 98SE.
It has Generic USB drivers installed on it that support recognizing many USB 2.0 controllers and other USB devices, but I don't know whether they came into play.

I plugged the card into the second PCI slot from the AGP slot, with the computer unplugged.

When I booted, Windows found a NEC PCI to USB Open Host Controller, and wanted to search for drivers for it.
In the case of my drivers CD, and the printed directions, the installation directions are incorrect - what is supposed to be the *.inf file for it is an *.exe file. I cancelled looking for drivers, it found a second NEC PCI to USB Open Host Controller, I cancelled looking for drivers again. Then I ran the *.exe file on the CD, in the \Win folder, which installed the drivers. At some point it wanted a file from the Win 98 CD - usb.inf - but in your case in XP (2000 and above), it or similar is built into Windows.
I rebooted, it found the NEC PCI to USB Open Host Controller, I had it search for the best drivers, the default, it found Updated drivers, recommended, I chose that. It then found a second NEC PCI to USB Open Host Controller, I had it search for the best drivers, the default, it found Updated drivers, recommended, I chose that.
I was prompted to reboot.
Rebooted - looked in Device Manager - most of the stuff for the controller was there under USB controllers, except there was one ? - unknown PCI to USB controller - I chose to update the driver, I had it search for the best drivers, the default, it found the updated driver, then all entries were correct for the card, even after rebooting.
I looked at the properties and found the NEC card is using IRQ 4 and 7 (one is for USB 1.1, the other for USB 2.0) .

........................................................................................

You already have IRQ 7 available - if you make IRQ 4 available too, the card will work in one PCI slot or another. Don't use either end PCI slot. It can probably use other IRQs too, but obviously it works with 4 and 7.
................................

The first time I plugged in a flash drive into the USB 2.0 card it was not recognized, in Windows Explorer (or My Computer). I tried plugging it into the onboard USB - not recognized.
I looked in System Information - no problem found, but the onboard ALi USB (1.1) controller and the NEC USB 2.0 controller are both using IRQ 4 - that may or may not be a problem. (I knew USB controllers made by the same brand can use the same IRQ, no problem, but I wasn't aware that different brands can. )
I looked in Device Manager - a red X under USB controllers beside USB Mass storage device. It was disabled. I enabled it.
The flash drive is now recognized when plugged into both the NEC card and the onboard (ALi) USB.

I rebooted - the flash drive is still recognized fine.

Win 98 and 98SE has no built in support for recognizing USB 2.0 controllers (or flash drives), yet the drivers that came with the card work in Win 98.
I don't know if they would have worked without my having installed the Generic USB drivers beforehand.
.....

In Device Manager, (in Win 98) under USB controllers, in addition to the ones for the onboard ALI USB:
ALi PCI USB Open Host Controller (uses IRQ 4)
USB Root Hub

NEC PCI USB Open Host Controller (uses IRQ 4)
NEC PCI USB Open Host Controller (uses IRQ 7)
(Properties - Resources)
NEC uPD 720101USB 2.0 Open Host Controller
USB 2.0 Root Hub
USB Root Hub
USB Root Hub
..........

NOTE
When I first tried installing this card in Win 98, I was using a USB connected Microsoft Digital Media Pro Keyboard, Model 1031. That keyboard worked fine before I installed the card.
After I had installed the card, in the second PCI slot from the AGP slot, I had all sorts of problems. The NEC chipset on the card was detected first boot, but when I attempted to access the CD for the drivers, the mouse cursor disappeared. I held the power button in until the mboard shut off, rebooted. Windows Protection error on a black screen.
I held the power button in until the mboard shut off, unplugged the computer, installed the card in the third slot from the AGP slot, restored power, booted. Same error message.
I restarted the computer in Safe mode - no error message - it got to the desktop screen. I looked in Device manager - a Tape drive device ?? (I didn't have one) , I could not disable it or look at it's Resources, and two USB devices, but no USB controller listings.
After trying several things, I unplugged the USB keyboard and plugged in a PS/2 one, moved the card back to the second PCI slot from the AGP slot.
The USB 2.0 card installed no problem, no weird entries in Device Manager.
I have no idea whether that happened because I used that particular keyboard model, or whether it would have happened with other USB keyboards, or whether it had something to do with the third party Generic USB drivers I had installed in Win 98.

I plugged in the same USB keyboard after the card had been installed.
I was prompted for usb.inf on the Win 98 CD, then it looked for mmhid.dll on the CD and found it.
No Windows Protection Error message after that while booting, no problems in Device Manager.



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#28
July 5, 2010 at 14:37:44
I'm sorry for late reply here...I've been busy with my work and everything so I haven't had much time for this project lately. Anyways I have tried pretty much everything I possibly could to make that USB 2.0 card to work but still it won't be detected at all. Tried everything suggested here and I did free all the IRQs I possibly could but still the card is totally invisible like before. So it's pretty hopeless. I can't find any other explanation but that it's somehow related to the design of that specific card. It is actually a little shorter than the PCI slot so it doesn't populate the full slot. Dunno if that's the matter. I think I will try with a different card when I'll find one cheap enough and designed for the PCI 2.1 spec just to be sure. If I will get it to work I'll get back to deal with the power supply and the video card.

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#29
July 5, 2010 at 21:44:13
"It is actually a little shorter than the PCI slot so it doesn't populate the full slot. Dunno if that's the matter"

The contact edge is shorter than the slot ??
I've never seen a PCI card that has a contact edge that does not fill the PCI slot.
If so, the card is an oddball.

You're not having much luck.
An AGP card and a USB that should work, but don't.


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