Computer will not start after GPU re-install

Hewlett-packard Pavilion a6750t desktop...
June 29, 2010 at 09:16:03
Specs: Windows Vista
Hi, this is my first post here, please let me know if I'm not providing enough information.

The fan on my graphics card (Radeon 4650) has been driving me nuts for months now. The fan spins up and down frequently, which is annoying but not really the problem- the problem is that it is often accompanied by rattling/knocking.

Although I am probably underqualified to poke around in my case, I've been inside periodically tightening things up with moderate levels of short-term success- with the power disconnected, taking the card out, taking the fan off, putting it back on (with tightened screws), putting the card back in, and starting the computer up. Sometimes the rattling seems to stop for a bit after I do this, but loosens back up after a few weeks.

The other day I tried a new approach which was not intended as a permanent solution- taking the fan/cooler off altogether and putting the graphics card back in the case without the fan. Although the green light on the back of the power supply was lit when I plugged the computer back in, the computer wouldn't start when I hit the power button. The fans in the case would jump forward a tiny bit the first time I hit the power (tenth of a second maybe), but after that hitting the power switch did nothing at all. Nothing from the hard drive, and nothing from the fans but the initial jump.

Fearing I did something wrong, I tried to put everything together the way it was (i.e. reattached the fan to the graphics card and put it back in the slot), but got the same thing. Tiny jump first time power is hit, nothing afterwards, no boot or drive activity. However, when I take the card out altogther, the computer seemingly fires up fine (I say seemingly because I can't connect it to a display to see what is going on).

I'm just looking for some troubleshooting tips- with my limited knowledge, I'm guessing it could be a problem with the graphics card itself, the power source, or the PCIE slot on the motherboard. I don't have a whole lot of other parts lying around and I'm trying to get a hold of another graphics card to test. In the meantime, just wondering if the problem is obvious and/or there are some troubleshooting steps recommended. Thanks!

(And yes, it is obvious now that I probably shouldn't have been playing around without knowing more about what I was doing, and perhaps shouldn't have been such a cheapy and just bought a new cooler/card in the first place.)


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#1
June 29, 2010 at 09:38:12
"I say seemingly because I can't connect it to a display to see what is going on"

Did you try connecting the monitor to the onboard graphics port? According to HP, your system is based on the Benicia-GL8E motherboard which has "Integrated graphics using Intel GMA 3100":

http://h10025.www1.hp.com/ewfrf/wc/...

http://h10025.www1.hp.com/ewfrf/wc/...

Other than that, it sounds like either your video card is bad or your power supply is on it's way out.


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#2
June 29, 2010 at 09:53:29
Jam, thanks for the suggestion. I haven't tried that, but you are right- I did notice what looked like a sealed VGA output on the back of my case. Never bothered to check it out because I never needed it, but I'll confirm tonight that the computer is starting up normally.

Since this is the same graphics card I've been using for a year plus now, is there some reason that the power source all of a sudden wouldn't be able to handle it? Or can I take that as an indication that it is more likely that I damaged my graphics card than it is a power source issue?


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#3
June 29, 2010 at 10:14:01
mmm well even if it has been a year u should post ur psu type and the specs on the first three rails volts amps etc
for the video card u said that the fan is moving up and down maybe its lose and needs to tight or the vid card is saying goodbye

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Related Solutions

#4
June 29, 2010 at 11:12:07
The HD 4650 isn't a huge power user...I think it consumes about 50W under full load & about 15W at idle. At startup, the card is drawing minimal power so unless your power supply is teetering on the brink, I don't see an additional 15W or so pushing it over the edge.

Also, there are fanless HD 4650's available. Granted, they do have a large heatsink rather than a heatsink/fan, but I doubt removing the fan from the card would bring the whole system down.


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#5
June 29, 2010 at 12:58:12
Are you sure it was the fan on the video card that was making the ratting noise? That could be coming from any fan - the cpu fan, a case fan, a power supply fan, etc.

Some fans have two sleeve bearings rather than ball bearings, or have one ball bearing, one sleeve bearing (e.g. many fans supplied with Intel cpus have one ball bearing, not so much those supplied with AMD cpus, and in el-cheapo power supplies). When the sleeve bearing gets worn beyond a certain point, it's common for you to hear a rattling noise, the most likely time being after the computer has cooled to room temp and has not been used for a while, e.g. overnight, when you first start up the cold computer.

On the other hand, smaller fans, which have smaller bearings, tend to develop this problem before larger fans do, so even when the video fan has two ball bearings, it may have this problem.

Look up the detailed specs for your video card - you can usually find in that whether the fan has two ball bearings or not. Sometimes you can do the same for other fans.
Note that for any fan used in a computer, if it says ball bearing in the specs for it, or on it's label, not ball bearings with a s, it probably has a ball bearing on the blade side, a sleeve bearing on the other side.

Ceramic bearings are better than ball bearings, and some fans have a sealed lubrication system for their sleeve bearings, e.g. "oil filled" or similar, which is almost as good as two ball bearings if the fluid has not leaked out, but I've never seen either of those except with after market fans.
......

Radeon HD4650

Minimum system power supply 400 W
http://www.lasystems.be/CLUB3D/CGAX...
Same
http://www.misco.ie/productinformat...
Same
http://www.memoryexpress.com/Produc...
Etc.

HP Pavilion a6750t Desktop PC Product Specifications and Configurable Options
http://h10025.www1.hp.com/ewfrf/wc/...

Product number: NE502AV

Power output wattage: 300 Watt

Is that the PS capacity ?
.......

Apparently, yes.

Parts

Product Number : NE502AV
Description : HP PAVILION A6760T DESKTOP PC

Power Supply
5188-2625 Power supply - 300-watt (Merlot C) regulated

http://partsurfer.hp.com/Search.asp...
.......

You need a power supply with more capacity to support using the Radeon 4650 on your system.

If your power supply had a 350 watt capacity, you might have been able to get away with that, but a hundred watt gap between the PS capacity and the recommended minimum for the HD4650 is too much.
Often when your PS does not have enough capacity to support the video chipset being on your system, the card will work anyway when you install it, but the PS is loaded to 100% of it's capacity, or nearly so, and that damages the power supply over time, eventually to the point the system will not work properly when the graphics card is installed, and eventually the PS will fail completely, which can damage other things while failing including the mboard. Plus the fact that HP tends to use el-cheapo power supplies that are much less likely to be able to handle being heavily loaded .
......

Your power supply must have at least the minimum capacity required to support a system with the graphics card you are using installed, or the max graphics card you might install in the future.
(Onboard video - video built into the mboard - IS NOT A CARD ! )
If that info is not in the ad for the video card, you can go to the video card maker's web site and look up the specs for the model - often under system requirements - the minimum PS wattage, and, more important, the minimum amperage the PS must supply at 12v is stated. If you don't find that, any card with the same video chipset including any letters after the model number has very similar minimum PS requirements. Some power supplies have two or more +12v ratings - in that case, add those ratings to determine the total +12v current capacity.

If you're a gamer...
In most if not all cases, the max capacity rating of the PS is an intermittent rating. It's recommended that you do not load your PS to any more that 80% of that rating if you are going to be using something that puts a constant load on it, such as playing a recent game for hours on end. In that case, you multiply the min capacity stated for the system with the particular video chipset on the card by 1.25 to find the min. capacity of the PS you should get.

In this case, 400 x 1.25 = 500 watt minimum.

If you need to get a PS with more capacity, you can usually replace it with any decent standard sized standard ATX PS.

Standard (PS/2) power supply size - 86mm high, 150mm wide, 140mm deep, or 3 3/8" h x 5 7/8" w x 5 1/2" d , or very close to that, though the depth can be more or less for some PSs.

Going by the appearance of your tower case, you probably have a standard sized, standard ATX power supply.

Don't buy an el-cheapo PS.
See response 3 in this:
http://www.computing.net/answers/ha...




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#6
June 29, 2010 at 13:30:12
A 300W PSU is more than enough for an HD 4650, provided the amperages are spec'd out correctly. According to the following site, total system power with an HD 4650 under peak load = 148W:

http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/...

And this site puts the total at 176W (scroll to the bottom):

http://www.madshrimps.be/vbulletin/...

One more:

http://www.silentpcreview.com/artic...


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#7
June 29, 2010 at 13:39:27
jam

Going by his info so far, I'd bet 10 to 1 his problem is caused by the power supply.

BDP

Quote the max. amperage for +12v found on the label on the PS. There may be two for +12v, if so quote both, but I doubt that.

If you can borrow a PS with more capacity, preferably at least 400 watts, try that.


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#8
June 30, 2010 at 13:47:06
Thanks everyone for your suggestions...hopefully I'll have some time tonight to confirm the PS specs and troubleshoot some more. I don't have another graphics card and/or PS to test but am trying to bum some from friends. I'll share any progress.

Tubesandwires- it was definitely the fan on the graphics card making the noise. Confirmed when stopping that particular fan stopped the noise.

After reading some of your comments with respect to the bigger problem (PC won't power up), I have a question. The PS seemed at least adequate to support the graphics card for 15 months. This isn't a new card, it is the one that came with the PC that HP shipped- I just took it out of the PCI-E slot, removed the fan, and put the card back into PCI-E slot. Since I did that, the PC won't power up with that same graphics card in, but does with the graphics card out. Could the PS have been limping along under the necessary capacity this whole time, and only now it is a problem? To me it feels more like the PS was probably ok for my configuration, but I somehow damaged the graphics card, PCI-E slot, or PS, but maybe you can put me in my place on that assumption.


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#9
July 1, 2010 at 08:42:43
Last night I took the Radeon 4650 out of the case and started my PC with the onboard video. I first got a error screen, giving me the option to either attempt a repair or try to boot normally. I selected repair, which took me to some windows repair dialogue- after about 10-15 minutes the repair was apparently unsuccessful, but I was able to log into Windows ok anyway. Besides needing to perform some video adjustments, it appears that everything is ok.

Not sure if this rules the PS out as the culprit and puts the blame squarely on the video card and/or the PCI-E slot- but as requested below are the specs for my power source.

I guess next steps are to try another card to rule out the PCI-E slot, and then consider a new card?

PSU: LITEON
Model: PS-5301-08HA ROHS
DC Output: 300W
Combined Power On: +5V And 3.3V Rails Shall Not Exceed 175W Max
Combined Power On: +12V And +5V Rails Shall Not Exceed 268W Max
Continuous Total DC Output Shall Not Exceed 300W

Input: 100-127V - 8.0A 50/60HZ
200-240V - 3.0A 50/60HZ
Output: +5V === /25A MAX +12V === /19A MAX +5Vsb === /2A MAX
+3.3V === / 18A MAX -12V === /0.8A MAX


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#10
July 1, 2010 at 20:07:40
"Last night I took the Radeon 4650 out of the case and started my PC with the onboard video. I first got a error screen, giving me the option to either attempt a repair or try to boot normally. I selected repair, which took me to some windows repair dialogue- after about 10-15 minutes the repair was apparently unsuccessful, but I was able to log into Windows ok anyway. Besides needing to perform some video adjustments, it appears that everything is ok."

Did you install the 4650 again - it doesn't sound like it.

Data problems on the hard drive cannot cause the HD4650 to produce no video, if there's nothing wrong with the card or the power supply - no video drivers are required before Windows starts to load.

"Not sure if this rules the PS out as the culprit and puts the blame squarely on the video card and/or the PCI-E slot-.."

If you didn't install the 4650 that doesn't rule out the power supply no longer having the capacity to power the system with the 4650 in it.

Assuming you didn't do something dumb such as not removing the AC power to your PC while removing and installing the card, or leave the video fan off the card for too long while the computer was running, there's probably nothing wrong with the HD4650 card or the PCI-E slot - try the 4650 on another computer if you can.

ATX mboards are always powered in some places as long as live AC is being supplied to the PS (and the PS is switched on if it has a switch), regardless of whether the computer is running. You must remove the AC power to the PS whenever you install or remove any connection or component that plugs into the mboard or the PS connectors inside the case, otherwise you may damage something.

The only way you can tell for sure if the problem is the power supply is to try another one - it doesn't have to be new.


" Output: +12V === /19A MAX "

HP does not list a HD4650 in their Parts list.

They do list.....

"PC Board (Graphics)

FJ219-69001 PCI Express x16 graphics card (Lynx) - nVidia GeForce 9300 GE, 128MB memory "

I couldn't find any wattage or current ratings for any 9300 series card, but...

GeForce 9400 GT
Minimum of a 300 Watt power supply.
(Minimum recommended power supply with +12 Volt current rating of 18 Amps.)

"KQ809-69001 PCI Express x16 graphics card (Seasprite) - nVidia GeForce 9600 GS, 768MB memory - HDMI, DVI, and using included DVI-to-VGA adapter cable

9600GSO (similar)
Requirements
Minimum of a 350 Watt power supply.
(Minimum recommended power supply with +12 Volt current rating of 18 Amps.)
http://www.evga.com/products/moreIn...

"KT334-69002 PCIe 256MB GeForce 9300 GE graphics card (Lynx) - With DVI support, low-profile bracket, and active cooling fan at dynamic speed"

See above.

"KT636-69001 PCI Express x16 graphics card (Seaking) - nVidia GeForce 9500 GS, 512MB memory - HDMI, DVI, and VGA support using applicable adapters "

9500GT (similar)
Minimum of a 350 Watt power supply.
(Minimum recommended power supply with +12 Volt current rating of 18 Amps.)
http://www.evga.com/products/moreIn...
....

So even with those, your power supply @ 19A output MAX would be being loaded to near to 100%.

I have have not found any amps @12v rating for any HD4650 card, but one that specified a minimum 350 watts, many that specified 400 watts, and one - ATI brand - that specifies a minimum 450 watts.

E.g. I have an Enermax 460 watt PS - 33A max @ 12v.
.....

The amps at +12v rating varies, that's why many graphics chipsets specs state that, so sometimes with a better model PS that may be higher than average, but that doesn't apply in your case.

As I said above,
"In most if not all cases, the max capacity rating of the PS is an intermittent rating. It's recommended that you do not load your PS to any more that 80% of that rating if you are going to be using something that puts a constant load on it,..."
which you would probably doing be doing with a 4650, or any of those optional cards HP lists.

"Often when your PS does not have enough capacity to support the video chipset being on your system, the card will work anyway when you install it, but the PS is loaded to 100% of it's capacity, or nearly so, and that damages the power supply over time, eventually to the point the system will not work properly when the graphics card is installed, and eventually the PS will fail completely, which can damage other things while failing including the mboard."


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