Looking for DOS 1.0

November 12, 2009 at 14:29:03
Specs: Windows 7, Q9550/4 GB
Refurbishing an IBM PC 5150 and am looking for DOS 1.0. I intend keeping the PC.

See More: Looking for DOS 1.0

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#1
November 12, 2009 at 15:57:22
Maybe one of these 1.x flavors will work for you...

http://www.emsps.com/oldtools/msdos...

They don't get much older than a 5150...that thing come with 1.0 or 1.1?

Skip


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#2
November 12, 2009 at 17:25:53
You should be able to download 1.10 here:

http://www.mirrors.org/archived_sof...

Help me Jebus!


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#3
November 13, 2009 at 04:26:05
SkipCox,

Thanks for the link. My credit card is maxed out at the moment. I'll have to see what Santy brings me.

The 5150 was the original PC, came with IBM Personal Computer Disk Operation System 1.0 (short-name:PC DOS 1.0)

DAVEINCAPS,

Great link. Now I have to figure out how to put it on a 5.25" disk.


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Related Solutions

#4
November 13, 2009 at 11:05:01
Yeah, you'll have to have a working machine, other than the IBM, with a 5.25 drive. Also, I think the 5150 came with 160/180 K single side drives and may not read a 360 K formatted disk. To be practical you should probably 'upgrade' to 360 K drives--360 K being the highest density the 8086/88 can use without adding a floppy card with its own controller. And remember, 360 K drives look exactly like 1.2 meg drives. The only way to tell the difference is by the model number.

Help me Jebus!


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#5
November 13, 2009 at 11:46:51
I need a stepdown transformer 230 V to 120 V before I try the PC.

I'll see what kind of drives the PC has. I have a monitor and keyboard.


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#6
November 13, 2009 at 18:55:34
The keyboards are different too. The plug is the same as all the AT style but the signal timing (or something like that--I forget exactly) is different for 8086/8088 keyboards and all the other AT keyboards. Some keyboards came with a DIP switch on the bottom and you could change its setttings to either PC/XT or AT. I uploaded those settings for a keytronic keyboard here:

http://download.driverguide.com/dri...

Downloading the file will make it clearer than the description I posted there.

The monitor depends on what video card it has. I think they came with a low resolution monochrome monitor but you can add any 8-bit video card, CGA, EGA or VGA, although 8-bit VGA are hard to find.

Help me Jebus!


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#7
November 14, 2009 at 05:12:07
I have the 4th edition of Upgrading and repairing PCs. It has chapters on the PC, Xt and AT. I'll keep you posted on my progress.
I have a PS/1, there was an add-on 5.25" floopy unit, i'm looking for one of those

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#8
November 14, 2009 at 09:54:49
I lhave the 3rd edition of that book. Lots of good information on floppy drives and floppy configuration in those old books.

Skip


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#9
November 15, 2009 at 06:51:33
What's the highest version of dos that will work on the 5051?

Would a 3.5" floppy drive work? presumeably not.


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#10
November 15, 2009 at 14:10:14
I've put 6.22 on XT (8088) class machines. The problem is getting it on floppies that the 5150 can read. You could run 360 K or 720 K (low denisty 3.5) drives on XT's. The 5150 has the same cpu but I'm not sure what its bios could support. I know it won't handle a 1.2 meg 5.25" or a 1.44 3.5" without the special floppy card I mentioned above since no 8088 could.

Help me Jebus!


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#11
November 15, 2009 at 17:19:45
I have to open up the box to see what the floppy drives are.

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#12
November 15, 2009 at 20:29:53
Hi fjk - why do you need a step down transformer?

Did the 5150 originate in a different country, to that where it now resides.

I thought early psu's had a 115/240v switch for such purposes.

Various comments above about type of 5.25 drive. Any possibility hard sectoring was used?

To fit a 3.5 drive will require a adapter cage and driver. It will probably only support DD though.

I would think dos 3.n will work on this pc and if it has a hard disk quite likely dos 6.n will be fine.

As a matter of interest, where are you based?
I am in Hammersmith, West London.

Good Luck - Keep us posted.


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#13
November 16, 2009 at 04:45:16
I'm in Dublin, Ireland and got the 5150 from across the Pond in the good ol' US of A.

The plate says 120 V, no switches on the outside. I haven't opened up the case to check inside yet. It has two 5.25" floppy drives and a very heavy keyboard, no ID on keyboard.

I'm cleaning out the house at the moment. My parents papers going back 50 years filled about 10 wheelie bins! Mostly receipts and electricity bills and stuff like that. I kept the good stuff and old photos. No one left now to tell who's who in the photos :-(

Anyway,I'm reading up on old floppies. Do you know if new 5.25" ss/sd floppies for an APPLE II can be formatted for PC?

I downloaded IBM DOS 1.10 from the link above but have no way of putting it on a disk. Finding SS/SD disks has only yielded those disks for Apple II.

I did come across a link for a copy of DOS 1.0 for over a $1,000. I can hear the conversation: "You bought what! For how much!"

I will indeed keep you all posted.


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#14
November 16, 2009 at 16:37:48
The 'heavy' keyboard is probably the original IBM that came with it. They were heavy.

You can format the apple disks as IBM. You can also format high denisty 1.2 meg as 360 K. So any 5.25 disks you come across should be OK.

I'd recommend you get the 8-bit floppy card with support for high density drives but I'm not sure if that old dos will support those drives. If it does, it'd be easier than trying to install an older drive on your working PC just to create the disks.

Help me Jebus!


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#15
November 16, 2009 at 17:55:04
thanks for the info. I hope to get around to opening the box later this week. I'll check the installed drives to see what they are. In the meantime I'll search for an 8-bit card

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#16
November 16, 2009 at 23:46:40
OK, it can't just be an 8-bit floppy card--it has to be an 8-bit floppy card with support for high density drives. They might be hard to find.

Help me Jebus!


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#17
November 17, 2009 at 09:18:54
Looking for 8-bit floppy card. Came across one for 360 K floppies

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#18
November 17, 2009 at 13:17:05
OK, I've opened the box. No change voltage switch on PSU, 120 V.

Two full length cards and one 3/4 length card. the 3/4 is the floppy controller.

one full length card has Hercules on it, i can't make out the rest of the label. Couuld be the graphics card.

The other I don't know. yep i do, it's AST SPK-064 SIXPAKPLUS Controller Card - 8 Bit ISA but I have no idea what it does. It has what looks like an external parallel port.

I have not IDed the floppy drives or controller cards yet.


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#19
November 17, 2009 at 13:23:52
The dos format command has various options asto how it formats.

Thus if you have some 5.25" floppies (preferably unformatted), just format them to what you require. e.g. ss etc.

New or used disks can be purchased cheaply on
ebay/computing/vintage.

Good Luck - Keep us posted.


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#20
November 17, 2009 at 13:55:18
The floppy drive circuit board has TANDON on it, can't see any other ID on the exposed parts. It looks like a single sided drive in that the metal plate that comes down doesn't seem to have any electronics on it or drive heads.

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#21
November 17, 2009 at 14:06:43
It appears to be a TANDON TM-100-2A, which is a DS/DD drive

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#22
November 17, 2009 at 17:41:47
AST made several sixpack-type cards. Usually they had serial and parallel ports and sometimes a game port. They were also memory expansion cards where you could add ram up to a meg or two. The 8088 could only use 640 K of ram but memory above that could be configured as expanded memory. A lot of old software back then was written to take advantage of expanded memory. Or you could use it for a ram drive--that is, a virtual hard drive created out of ram. Programs would really run fast on a ram drive because you never had to read and write to a physical hard drive.

Also some of the six pack cards had a battery for a clock. Those motherboards didn't a clock but with the AST card you'd add a command to autoexec.bat to read the time off the card.

Well, a lot of cards did that back then because it was such an advantage. On my old XT (which I still have) I have a lot of the commands for the various card to call their time.

I think I know exactly what that floppy card looks like. Does it have an external connection on it too? Yeah that card will only work with low density drives.

The hercules card is the video. I think back then hercules only made monochrome cards. I believe they were call TTL monitors (Transitor transitor logic, unless TTL means something different for monitors.) But like I said, any 8 bit monitor card will work. As a matter of fact, some 16-bit VGA cards will work. You just leave its rear contacts hanging out the back of the slot.

Help me Jebus!


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#23
November 17, 2009 at 18:02:56
The floppy card is an IBM 37-Pin I/O FDD Controller Card - 6181682XM. It has an external port. I'm looking for specs for it.

The AST has a battery onboard


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#24
November 17, 2009 at 19:38:56
Then it has the ability to keep time. Does the 5150 have a hard drive? If so it's probably a 5 meg--maybe 10. It may have dos on it already. If not, I'm not sure dos 1.10 has hard drive support.

Help me Jebus!


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#25
November 18, 2009 at 03:08:39
The floppy controller can control 4 floppy drives. A and B from
the card edge connector on the inside and C and D from the DB-
37 connector on the rear panel. C and D was housed in an
expansion chassis as large as the original box. I had 4 half
height drives in the original box with a hard disk (Drive E) on a
hard card with a 100 watt power supply (original was 63.5 watt).
The Hercules card had monochrome graphics.

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#26
November 18, 2009 at 04:00:13
No hard drive. I had a look again at the floppy drives. The're full hight and seem to have a drive head top and bottom. It's fascinating to see the size of the cards.

I need a step down transformer before I power up the system. It is a 63.5 W PSU.

There's a lot of DIp switches on the boards and cards.


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#27
November 18, 2009 at 05:13:48
I've located inexpensive step down transformersbut I don't know if output frequency will be 60 Hz. What effect will using 50Hz have on the PSU rated 60Hz. as the output of the psu is DC i'm thinking it should not matter.

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#28
November 18, 2009 at 12:14:02
I'd have to look it up but I think if the input is 115 volts at 50 HZ instead of 60 Hz to the PSU, its DC output voltages will be higher

Help me Jebus!


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#29
November 18, 2009 at 16:05:06
Here's a little more information on a 5150...this one from Scotland.

http://www.sothius.com/hypertxt/wel...

http://www.sothius.com/hypertxt/wel...

As to the 50Hz vs 60Hz question, I suspect you'd have some problems with clocks or other AC motors; doubt if you'd see any problems after it's converted to DC.

Skip


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#30
November 18, 2009 at 17:04:34
Cards are big because there were few VLSI and ASPIC integrated circuits. The dip switches control configuration, this was before CMOS. 50 Hz power will reduce power output (up to 10%).

Schematic diagrams for many of the cards were provided in the Technical Reference.


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#31
November 18, 2009 at 18:38:57
I had a professor do the math on the differences in power output of motors when using 50 hz instead of 60 but couldn't find any of that now. Google did find this:

"For the 120 volt electronics, the optimum voltage for 120 Volt 60 Hz motors and transformers used on 50 Hz. is 100 Volts, but a very common dual rating for coils is 110/120 Volts, 50/60 Hz."

about halfway down this page:

http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread....

That's for motors and not necessarily power supplies.

Since the 5150 power supply doesn't need a load in order to fire up I'd go ahead and hook up the step down to the power supply and then check the open circuit 5 and 12 voltages at one of the drive connectors. That way you won't damage anything if its output is too high.

Then compare those figures with ones taken from another computer, say the one you're on now. It's not perfect but may be enough for you to decide if you can use the setup as it is.

The DIP switch settings may be OK as they are. If not we can look them up, maybe on one of the TH99 sites. Also I should have paperwork on some of the six pack cards.

Help me Jebus!


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#32
November 19, 2009 at 09:26:32
SkipCox,

DAVEINCAPS,

Great links.

I had a PSU with the same connectors as in the 5150 and an input voltage switch. I only gave it to the street recently. Wah!

I also gave away my electronics notes about transformers recently too! Double Wah!

I'm supposed to be tidying up the house at the moment and have gotten to the attic where I have boxes of computer stuff that I'm culling. I'll move the 5150 up there and do a more systematic analysis of the board and cards.

TH99 is new to me. I'll look at that stuff later. I've located a copy of DOS 2.1 on Two, 5.25" - 360K Disks.


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#33
November 19, 2009 at 12:44:44
Here's one of the TH99 sites:

http://www.resoo.org/docs/_hardware...

If the dos 2.1 disks are good you might consider zipping them for others to download who are trying to put together old systems.

Help me Jebus!


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#34
November 20, 2009 at 12:37:14
I'll see what I can do on the DOS.

I'm thinking of getting an AT PSU. They seem to have the same motherboard connectors as the 5150.


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#35
November 20, 2009 at 13:54:21
The only difference is the AT power supply has a 'power good' connection. It uses the place of the missing wire on an XT power supply. It should be OK to connect to a 5150 motherboard but you should probably verify the voltage wiring is arranged the same. There's some info here:

http://www.epanorama.net/documents/...

The power supply that came with the IBM AT (286) computer was a different size than fits in their PC/XT case. If that's what you plan on getting I don't think it'll physically fit in the case.

Help me Jebus!


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#36
November 20, 2009 at 14:09:40
I had a look at the power connectors to the motherboard, there is indeed a wire missing.

I've been googling and thinking, and I'll try to properly identify all the parts. I have a monitor, it's still in the box. I think it's the type that came with the 5051


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#37
November 20, 2009 at 14:34:09
The card connection for TTL monochrome, CGA and EGA monitors were all the 9-pin. Some cards had switches to accomodate more than one type.. But your card is almost certainly only TTL monochrome. If you plug in CGA or EGA monitor to the card you may damage the card or monitor.

Way back when I had an XT computer I'd bought a fairly decent monochrome monitor. But I was running some circuit analysis software (microcap) that needed CGA. There was software that would 'fool' microcap into thinking you were using CGA instead of monochrome. But I didn't have that. The card had a switch to accomodate either monochrome or CGA so I flipped it to CGA. It worked for about a minute and then POOF, that was the end of my monochrome monitor.

Help me Jebus!


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#38
November 20, 2009 at 14:51:29
ok, i'll be extra careful

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#39
November 21, 2009 at 07:04:50
The Hercules has an FCC ID: EW65T5HERCULESLCS.

There's a square chip in a socket labelled HERCULES V 112 - B


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#40
November 21, 2009 at 14:12:29
I couldn't find anything helpful when I googed either of those terms. But I was reminded those cards are called MDA--monochrome display adapter.

I think the IBM MDA hercules cards also had a printer port. There was a full size CGA card that was sometimes used. I don't think it was hercules but it had an RCA plug in it. If yours has a printer port also then I'm pretty sure it's just MDA.

Help me Jebus!


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#41
November 21, 2009 at 14:27:41
Couldn't find anything myself. There is a printer port, no rca port. I found a few images of the card but none of them said what type of card it is. It's full lenght.

I looked up the pin outs of the motherboard power connectors for the pc/xt and the AT in Scott Mueller's book. Both have the P.G. at the same location. The AT has a +5V at the PC/XT's No Connection


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#42
November 21, 2009 at 16:54:34
The IBM MDA was character mode only. The Hercules had
monochrome graphics capability with suitable drivers. The power
supply connectors were labled P8 and P9 if I remember
correctly. The grounds were together adjacent to each other.

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#43
November 21, 2009 at 23:22:49
Yeah, the ground wires being side by side when the plugs were connected was the only way I could remember their proper placement. They weren't keyed very good and could be pushed on wrong.

Never thought about the adapter being character only. That probably explains why microcap wanted CGA.

The PC/XT may have been able to use the 'power good' function or maybe it was just about the power supplies. But I don't think I ever saw it used on an 8088 motherboard.

Since the card has the printer port it's MDA only. At least I never saw one configured that way that wasn't.

Help me Jebus!


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#44
November 22, 2009 at 07:26:39
I looked again at the power label: 120 V at 50/60 Hz.

So a straight forward stepdown transformer should do the trick.


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#45
November 22, 2009 at 18:24:58
Yeah, the difference in output voltages when using 50 vs 60 HZ may not be significant. Still, it wouldn't hurt to put a voltmeter to it just to make sure.

Help me Jebus!


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#46
November 22, 2009 at 19:10:20
Yep, err on the side of "check everything". The combination of old psu, added stepdown transformer, and different power frequency could possobly cause a problem.

Think of a slew of ±10% components all being off spec in one direction and how it could add up.

Skip


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#47
November 23, 2009 at 14:41:48
i've located an xt power supply ibm 5051438 and am trying to find it's specs

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#48
November 24, 2009 at 13:56:00
I've located an XT psu that has a voltage change switch for America and Europe.

But I think I'm still stuck because the monitor is 120 V and feeds off the other socket in the psu. Presumably that just fed through from the incoming voltage, which will be 230V

i came across this http://choiceprinters.com/video/TTL...


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#49
November 24, 2009 at 17:34:48
Yeah, it's just a straight feed through but I think it splices off after the voltage switch and not before so you should get 120 volts. But again just check it with an AC voltmeter.

Help me Jebus!


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#50
November 25, 2009 at 00:48:48
The aux socket on the power supply is the same as your input
voltage. I haven't seen such a socket on s dual voltage power
supply. 230 volts ac cannot be reduced to 115 volts ac without a
heavy transformer.

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#51
November 25, 2009 at 04:56:25
I have not bought the XT psu yet. It has two power sockets and a voltage selector switch

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#52
November 25, 2009 at 22:54:30
Are you sure the xt psu will fit inside the pc?

Often, there were of differences between those for 'authentic' and compatible pc's. (e.g. size, shape, fan position etc.)

If not, are you considering using it externally?

Good Luck - Keep us posted.


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#53
November 26, 2009 at 03:04:43
I think I'll go the step down transformer route and measure the output voltages before I connect to the board.

I've looked up the theory and the AC frequency shouldn't affect the DC output.


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#54
December 4, 2009 at 06:26:12
I've moved the PC up to the attic and am waiting for a stepdown transformer to arrive.

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#55
January 15, 2010 at 13:01:39
I have not been well so my project is dormant at the moment. I have the stepdown transformer.

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#56
September 30, 2010 at 05:21:15
Just an update to let you know that the refurbishing is still on hold.

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#57
October 3, 2010 at 07:21:11
Gee, I have DOS 4 on a 5.25. I wonder how much it is worth!

Getting the dos 1.0 software is one thing, but making it bootable is another - even when you get it on the 5.25. Those things aren't normal setup programs we've been used to since the advent of the 286. Totally different animals. There is no disk drive like we know, so you'll need the 5.25 disk as the 'hard drive'.

A handy thing to have is a 386 for transfer work though. This is because the 386 usually has 3.5 diskette as well as 5.25 drives or at least SCSI support for either, which 286s should have as well.

Sounds like a fun project...


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#58
October 3, 2010 at 08:05:13
'tis indeed. Interesting to read how Microsoft got started. I have a 386 but it doesn't have 5.25" drives, although it has provision for them.

I havn't been well since I started this post. just back from the doctor, i have an infection in a wound that i have stitches in. Doc says she caught it in time, stitches could have fallen out.

doing some reading on virtualisation.

i'll keep u all posted on the PC projected


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#59
October 3, 2010 at 20:16:55
Yeah, you don't absolutely need an antique PC in order to use a 5.25 drive--just one in which the bios has the option. And then of course you need the drive. There are 360 K and 1.2 M 5.25 drives and you need to know which you have.

Real men don't use AntiVirus; they just reformat


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#60
October 9, 2010 at 09:28:02
OK. I've gotten a disk image of Pc-DOS 1.0 and a program called "Flopper". The image boots up and says "The IBM Personal Computer DOS, Version 1.00 (C)Copyright IBM Corp 1981" and displays a A> prompt.

It has COMMAND.COM but I cant see IBMBIO.COM or IBMDOS.COM so I'm unsure how the image is booting.

I'll read the Flopper Manual and see what it says.


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#61
October 9, 2010 at 10:09:47
IBMBIO.COM and IBMDOS.COM are hidden files but dir /a doesn't work.

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#62
October 9, 2010 at 18:00:38
Do you have a download link for the dos 1.0 image?

Real men don't use AntiVirus; they just reformat


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#63
October 10, 2010 at 05:14:26
Think so. I've PMed you.

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#64
October 11, 2010 at 06:13:05
fjk61011 , any chance you could send a link for the 1.0 image my way.
Thank You

Keep the old stuff running


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#65
October 11, 2010 at 07:20:51
LinuxOS2

PMed you.

I've been searching for awhile. Took all sorts of word combinations before Mr Google came up trumps. I had to roll up my left trouser leg, open the oven door, turn on two taps and stick pins in a juju doll. :)

Only looked in the zip file recently. So I'm not sure how long I've had it.

Next challenge is to put it on a 160k disk. I've located some data rescue firms and I'll see if they can do that. I'll need a160k drive to try and put on real hardware rather than Flopper.


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#66
October 11, 2010 at 12:15:45
I think the floppy drive(s) that came with that one were the 160/180 K Tandon full height drives which will probably be impossible to find at a decent price. However the floppy controller should be able to handle 360 K drives. Did it come with the Tandon drives or are you looking for them?

You should be able to use any 5.25 disks--even 1.2 meg--and then format them as 160 K in the Tandon. 160 K format is single-sided and only uses one side of the disk.

Real men don't use AntiVirus; they just reformat


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#67
October 11, 2010 at 12:50:34
there are two drives in the 5150. there in the attic at the moment, i'll check them later

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#68
October 13, 2010 at 04:56:53
The drives are full height floppies, Tandon but I cant see any ID. If they are 160k i should be able to see only 1 head, i think. As I don't know what I'm looking for that might be difficult.

I have a half hight drive and a controller card. I'll try and install them in my 386 and see what i can do.


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#69
October 24, 2010 at 07:39:00
OK, I've managed to put the DOS 1.00 160k image on a 720k 3.5" floppy. It boots on my PS/1 486SX 20 MHz machine. It's CHKDSK shows it's massive number of files, 40.

About half of which are BASIC applications.


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#70
October 24, 2010 at 17:47:33
Good job. You may want to make a few copies since floppies don't last forever.

Real men don't use AntiVirus; they just reformat


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