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This is a continuation of the thread regarding setting up a pre-loaded XP Home Edition laptop for triple boot with 2K and ME on three partitions -- one (C:) primary and two Extended Logicals (D: and E:). There is no full version XP installation CD -- only an energency "recovery" CD.
http://www.computing.net/windowsxp/wwwboard/forum/139046.html
I just completed the following steps:
1. Used the XP "recovery" CD to reinstall XP to the factory settings the laptop was shipped with.
2. Used Partition Magic 8.0 to format the 100 GB hard drive to FAT32, and created four FAT32 partitions: C:, D:, E: and F:
3. Backed up the files "ntldr" and "ntdetect" to a backup folder on C:
4. Exited XP and shut down the computer.
The next steps were to install ME on E:, then install W2K on D:. However, after inserting the ME installation CD in the drive, rebooting the computer and launching the boot selection menu, then instructing it to boot from the CD-ROM drive, the computer continued to load XP instead.
Not sure why I can't get the Windows ME install going this time around. I'm sure I'm missing something... some step somewhere... but we've tried so many different attempts and sequences over the past three days, I can't remember.
I'll try to format e: from within XP. Perhaps that's where the snag is.
Nope, that didn't make a difference. Even though I select the "boot from CD/DVD" option at the boot menu, the computer ignores the fact I've got the ME install CD in the drive and, instead, boots right into XP.
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I have had triple boot on my laptop using boot magic. I never use extended drives, I always create three primary partitions and a common data (extended) partition, accessible from either OS and I don't recall having any problems. Although not necessary I always format & lable the primaries because I can then use BM to bring up the correct primary and just do an install into that. I loaded XP, W2K and NT4 and the extended partition is FAT32 which can be seen by either OS.
There is no reason for any individual to have a computer in their home.
- Kenneth Olsen, president and founder of Digital Equipment Corp., 1977.
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While I've never tried multiple OS, I do remember reading a lot of other forums stating you need to install the oldest OS first. That may be your only problem. However, obviously you may need to get the full XP version (or upgrade version) rather than a recovery disc. A possible solution (don't know if this would work) would be format in W2K or ME, install ME in the E, W2K in the D, and then recovery without format in C.
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thread-3...
Hi susan:
You say that after restoring the drive to factory-gate status and "tweaking" the drive partitioning (to get c: , d: , e: , f: ) you set about installing ME in to e: - and have the problem you detail.
What happens if you have another go with another attempt to install W2K (into d: ) - after first cleaning out all evidence of attempted ME installation?
I know you've been down this road before, but who knows - this time you might get lucky...?
A longshot in terms of stopping the system from booting straight to XP - even when told to boot via CD/DVD. Run the " sys c: " routine to reset the mbr to the dos level/version. Then have a go at installing either ME or W2K; I'd go for W2K as clearly it has low priority and anticipated short-life in your scheme of things...?
There is a way to make a bootable CD that is in effect the equivalent of a '98 bootdisk. I'll have hunt for the "how to do it". Possibly others here will know of it too? I think there are downloadable images to this end; also I seem to recall Nero allows it (and maybe includes a "how to do it" in the manual etc.?).
If you do manage to " sys c: " the drive (rewrite the mbr) then to restore access to XP (at least) you simply use the recovery CD and allow it to fixmbr.
As regard using the recovery CD to restore XP if it's been deleted/obliterated entirely, I was under the impression that one could simply put the OS back into a designated (typically/usually the first/only) Primary partition on the parent system; this even though the Primary may smaller than the orginally shipped? I think it's a non-destructive restoration/repair/recovery (or something like) and does not reformat the system. It "merely" restores system files etc. and does not generally overwrite settings in the installation - including anything you changed post receipt of system?
I seem to recall that the recovery CD and possibly a small "hidden" partition (on the HD) conspire to ensure that the recovery CD is used on "only" the system with which it was shipped - or one very close it; i.e. one of the same make/series etc. as shipped. There is some reference data (re' HD, MoBo, bios etc.) stored either on the CD or within the small "hidden" partition - at the start of the drive...). This "hidden" partition may/may not show up via PM or Fdisk; however I'm inclined to think it can be detected via Fdisk - as the math for disk space indicates something is missing, or Fdisk indicates an "odd-ball" partition...?
Whether or not this hidden partition currently has an influnece, and has a hand in stopping you boot via ME CD - ???
Did you manage to boot via either the ME or W2K CD in the past; I can't recall just now???
The separate Primaries etc. (3 + Extended) and an add-in boot-util is clearly an option that may work. Whether you use BM, SC, or BootIT is upto you... All work and have their respective fans...
As you clearly are "au fait" (hapy with/OK) at restoring the system to facctory-gate status, I wonder if you'd be prepared to try the routine to which I alluded in the latter part of the second (previous) thread related to this topic?
You already have the drive partitioned so you've done a little of the work already?
I worked it our in detail and it will post here; although it will be little long (it's not the first lengthy "how to" item I've posted here. (I guess I should one day create my own web-page to post some of the ideas/workarounds etc. I know of...)
Another very long shot - re' the bootsect.dos; and it was this item that seemed to be the issue way back?
As fas I know that file is NOT machine/PC/drive specific. However it does need to have the correct info referring to the correct partition for a dos/'9x(ME) based OS installed alongside a member of the NT family, and required to run via the NT style boot-loader...?
With this in mind... you could possibly create the bootsect.dos (manually) on another PC and then copy it to the laptop )c: route) - once/if you manage to ME installed...
Likewise a copy from another system may well work; again providing it points the correct location for OS (ME in this case).
Even a copy emailed may work (the file is really quite small).
XP partition size? 5Gig is a min I'd go for; and as you have large drive 8Gig willbe fine. For all three OS involvded here there is not bootcode boundary issue to be concerned about. (Bootcode boundary is essentially the max distance an OS can go into a drive - physically; after which boundary the OS may not successfully install, may not run... It was an issue with NT3x/4x/'95 and early '98. It was - allegedly - resolved for later versions of '98 and anythng else that followed it, so ME/W2K/XP are clear of it.)
By the time this one is resolved what you won't know about dual/multi-boots, recovery CDs and Toshiba laptops will not be worth knowing; and you'll be Queen B...
The more I come across Recovery CDs and system using them, the less I like them. They severely restrict what one can do with one's system. Many folks abandon them and shell out for either a Full version CD, or an Upgrade (knowing they have a compliant previous OS CD to hand for use with an Upgrade OS). More control handed to M$-land, more $$$ to M$-land - when one has already paid for the OS via the vendor...? (I appreciate this is not an option you are willing to pursue at present...)
Hang in there...
More anon.
trvlr
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About to hit the road to Coos Bay.
First W2K and now ME when both installed before?
I am thinking your cdrom needs to be cleaned or you are having a hardware issue with it.
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Re'the CD/DVD drive etc.
It's a thought and worth considering, although I feel it's longish shot since this is a new system; but then one never knows - the CDROM (DVROM?)... may be suspect.There was a period only a few years back when Toshiba (laptop) kit was anything but reliable; poor build, with some less than robust components; also spares were very hard to come by. It put me well away from buying one at the time. However those days are allegedly behind them?
Possibly the laser assembly is a little mucky, less than properly focused etc. (poorly installed); possibly the electronics associated with it are a little flakey. An Adco or similar laser assembly/lens cleaner kit is only a few $$$; useful too for any other laser (CD/DVD) devices in house...
My limited experience of CDROM and DVDROM has me understanding that DVDROM are "a little" more tolerant of CD (disk) vagueries etc. than a CDROM; their laser assemblies are more able to handle a broad range of disks and variations etc. in them.
However the fact that the recovery CD appears to work "every time and flawlessly...(?)" does tend to rule the drive out more or less - but not entirely?
If this problem was affecting XP too I'd be inclined to suspect the CDROM/DVDROM - which ever it is; also to really have another look at installed RAM. A very long shot would be the MoBo itself and any on-board chips (e.g. the cache); but as XP goes in OK... it tends to rule out most (all?) of the hardware? XP is generally more picky about a given system and its components than the rest of the (earlier) M$ products?
Somewhere lies the answer... - but where?
*****************
Wanderer:Coos Bay - sounds like a fishing trip? Oh, the idle rich... - enjoy.
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Okay... this is what I'm going to do next.
Since, with W's help, I was able to get everything installed (contrary to general consensus) when I did it in this order (W2K, then ME), that's what I'm going to attempt next.
When we did it that way, we couldn't get ME to run because of the bootsect.dos file. All three operating systems showed up in the boot selection menu. This time, though, I'll take your suggestion, trvlr, and copy the bootsect.dos file from my desktop running 98SE and try to load it on the laptop.
In regard to the size of the XP partition on C: -- when I partitioned everything the first time, I made it 8GB (based on various posts I read in this forum).
When I was reinstalling XP from the "Recovery" CD last night, my first thought was to make it smaller. However, the opening screen on the "recovery" CD said something like: "Warning: there is an existing partition on this drive that is smaller than the required 10GB needed to recover without lose of data. If you continue, all data will be wiped from this hard drive." (Or wording very similar to that.)
So... when I partitioned last night, I made the C: partition 10.5 GB. Definitely bigger than what I'd like. Come to think of it, though, if I ever had to use that "recovery" CD again in the future, it's probably going to wipe out all my partitions anyway. So, I think I'll go back to 8GB.
I'm gonna give all this a try and post back.
Thanks, guys.
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Well... here's what I've done.
1. Shrunk the c: partition down to 8GB from 10.5GB
2. Copied the XP boot files "ntldr" and "ntdetect" to a backup folder.
3. Changed the drive letter of the CD/DVD drive to R: from within XP.
3. Booted with the W2K install CD and (successfully) installed W2K.
4. Changed the drive letter of the CD/DVD drive to R: from within W2K.
5. Installed the W2K Recovery Console from within W2K so it's a boot menu option at startup.
6. Copied the backed-up XP boot files back into C:
7. Rebooted into the Recovery console.
8. Ran "fixmbr" and "fixboot"
9. Rebooted and selected XP to start.
10. Successfully got into XP.
11. Rebooted and selected W2K to start.
12. Successfully got into W2K.
13. Rebooted the computer via CD/DVD with the ME install CD in the drive, and tried to install ME.
14. Drive didn't read the CD, and instead presented me with the options to start XP, 2K or the Recovery Console.
So... the problem isn't with the CD/DVD drive itself, since I was able to successfully install W2K with it.
Checked the ME install disk itself to see if there were any fingerprints, smudges, dust, etc. on it. There were none. (This disk, afterall, had successfully installed the other day.)
Now I'm wondering whether I should reboot the computer with my ME boot disk (CD) just to get the command prompt, switch it out with the ME install CD, and type "setup.exe' from there? I could probably also copy the bootsect.dos file from my 98SE desktop computer onto that ME boot disk first.
What do you think?
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Wonders never cease...
Quite why you had problems installing W2K (at times) and then succeed is beyond me...
Well done "susanr"!!!
However I do have "slight" suspicions about your CD/DVDROM nonetheless. Wanderer's comment triggered a vague idea a little after my post following it... - based on a recent experience in Utah; it involved both an ME CD, and also a US Robotics modem software CD. Neither of these CDs would autorun, and could not be accessed manually either... Several attempts (including a reboot or two) and suddenly they were accessible/usable... These two CDs were not used consecutively - but over two day period. I noted the position of the CD in the drive tray each time and noted it do NOT appear to have spun/revolved when access problem presented itself. (Also I did not clean any lens etc...) Nonetheless when they were "good 'n ready" the two CDs were accessible... The USRobotics CD was used in two different systems - and produced the same access issue - which in due course disappeared.... Now this had me wondering if there was an intermittent issue with the CDROM in question (one maybe - but two different units...?) Thus far I have no clear position on this..., but cannot entirely dismiss either of the CDROM units - or the CDs...
"Possibly" you have slightly flakey CDR/DVROM unit - who knows...? If there is an issue there then it would explain why you seem to boot to XP on occasion - even when calling for a CD boot? With the boot-sequence CD/DVDROM first and then hard drive, if there is no access to (i.e. no output from) the CD/DVDROM then the system defaults to the next boot source in the selected sequence. If the CD/DVD drive doesn't spin, or the CD/DVD is not detected within the drive - then no ouput signal from the CD/DVDROM... Even if the CD spins there could still be no output from the unit - laser issues, or other electronics not OK (this presumes the disk is OK...)?
I'd be very inclined to keep a close watch on the Toshiba CD/DVD unit... If the ME CD (and the W2K CD) work OK (everytime) in another PC then it could suggest issues with the Toshiba CD/DVD drive (albeit intermittently)?
As for your idea to boot with ME boot CD (the floppy on a CD) to a dos prompt and then insert/run the ME OS CD... If the boot (floppy) CD has CDROM drivers too, then that may/should work OK; those drivers should be loaded from the CD/floppy as per a normal boot-floppy with CDROM drivers. (I'm presuming that you will need CDROM drivers installed via a boot-disk in order to access/run the ME CD, as I can't see how else it would be accessible...). That the CDROM drivers are loaded from the boot-disk is standard requirement when booting via a standard dos/'9x(ME) boot-floppy, and needing access to a CD. Presumably your CD "floppy" version has the drivers?
There is no need to copy the bootsect.dos to the ME CD/floppy; simply copy it straight into the c: root; that file is complete in itself.
However - I'd copy this over to c: root "after" ME is successfully installed - not before.
I did a "little" more digging around re' bootsect.dos issues, and came across no information that said it "was" machine specific (my understanding over several years has been that it is not machine specific); but I did find a brief reference to it perhaps not working properly following a defrag routine. It's to do with "fat table" information changing... If this happens there is a "free fix" available...
If you do copy over the '98 bootsect.dos to c: root and it does not work - for whatever reason - post back and I'll point you to the free download of the util; this may well correct any errors/issues with your copy..
You can also create it manually via notepad and the "debug" routine (debug is part of NT and W2K - but not part of XP). I have a reference to that too if need-be. Using W2K is neat way to get round not having floppy drive (a requirement if using the method detailed by doug knox and others in order to run the util some of them apply?). There is also is at least one free util that will also create any required bootsect.dos (and the boot.in entry too - I think). If you want/need that (for whatever reason) post back...?
Once you have the bootsect.dos installed (manually) all you have to do is to add the line (for ME) to the boot.ini (on c: root). I think you have the entry required in one of the several boot.ini examples posted here earlier...
If you cannot get the ME CD to run either via a CD boot or via the CD/floppy boot, then try reverting to a W2K only system (temporarily); i.e. restore the W2K version of ntldr/ntdetect.com so that only W2K can/will boot. But first save the XP version of ntldr/ntdetect.com to a floppy (if you haven't still go them on a floppy).
These files (W2K version) can be found in the W2K i386 folder (on the CD); and if you copied the i386 to the hard drive, they should be in that copy too. Copy them back to c: root and when you reboot you should be able to boot to W2K only.
Then try booting with the ME CD and installing ME; via yoiur CD/floppy...
If you do then get ME installed OK there is the simple routine I posted earlier (the M$ KB) to automatically create the bootsect.dos correctly. It does not use notepad and debug... You might prefer this approach to copying over the version from '98? Likwise if the copy doesn't work (for whatever reason) this auomated proicess will do all that's needed. Essentially it's W2K repair routine; inspect boot-files. You do NOT use recovery console. Note that (for whatever M$ reason) the XP equivalent routine does NOT produce a bootsect.dos; only NT/W2K appear to do this... (One can only wonder "why" - M$???)
W2K/ME repair routine:
http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;293401
Personally I'd use the above routine; nice 'n easy... Much as Wanderer "et alii" suggestedd eons ago...
Once you have W2K/ME working OK - simply copy back the XP version of ntldr/ntdetect.com and all should be done?
When you boot to W2K (no ME installed) - make an ERD; when you get ME installed - make a second version. Keep both versions safe...; they may come in handy sometime or other. To the best of my knowledge, there is no similar ERD routine for XP (again one wonders why...)
Wouldn't hurt to copy the final bootsect.dos (however you derive/install it) to a floppy along with the XP version of the boot-files too. It gives you a floppy (CD in yur case...) boot up which will give you the standard boot-menu and allow you way back in case of emergency...?
You should then have two boot CD/floppies; one for W2K/ME and one for XP/W2K/ME.
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Thanks, trvlr. For some strange reason, I do not have a file called "bootsect.dos" on either of my other two computers -- another laptop running ME and a desktop running 98SE. Unless I'm looking in the wrong place? It should be in the root c:, right?
Wanderer pointed me in the direction of a utility called BTSECT from "tweakhomepc.com" that'll create the bootsect.dos file; however, it needs to be unzipped to the boot floppy... and a floppy does me no good, since the laptop doesn't have a floppy drive. I may play around with Nero and see whether I can burn a boot disk and then add files to it after the fact.
I must confess... I'm a little wary now of trying to get this d**m WIN ME installed. At least right now, I've got a good, stable dual-boot going with XP Home/W2K. I'm not sure I want to risk messing everything up again, especially since it's been about a week now and I really need to actually start *working* on the laptop (as opposed to diddling around with the operating systems!)
I don't believe the problem is with the CD-RW/DVD drive itself... if for no other reason than every other CD I've popped in there has run just fine -- not just the XP Recovery and W2K install CDs, but hardware and software application CDs as well.
At this point, I need to think about what I want to do -- whether getting ME on there is, ultimately, as important as it is to (finally) actually be getting some work done. :-)
I'll keep you posted.
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The bootsect.dos will be a hidden file... (enable show all files etc. in Explorer); then locate the file and go via its properties to remove the read-only/hidden "flags"). It can also be done via dos prompt (in a dos window is one way).
The teakhome util does work; it should possible to add it to a CD equivalent of boot-floppy.
There is also the "simple" routine that involves Notepad and the debug routine in W2K to create the bootsect.dos - as I alluded in my last post. And then there is a freebie util that will do all that's required - adds items to the NT style boot-loader.
http://www.winimage.com/bootpart.htm
It seems generally well regarded; very useful etc. It offers another "simple" way to get ME into the equation (i.e. create a bootsect.dos condition)?
However I'm a great fan of allowing W2K (repair - inspect/repair boot files) to do it all for me... It will do all that's necessary saves a lot of effort/agro/grief in the process...? (Details are in the M$ KB I've already posted; I have a slight variation on it - but essentially it's the same ideas).
I can empathise with the ME frustrations. If it isn't "really" necessary then I'd be inclined to forgo it. XP is allegedly ME + W2K after a fashion (according to some folks; others will howl in protest at that observation - but it's out there...). Also XP has its emulation modes for dos/'9x/ME?
Personally I can see no reason to use ME at all - unmless there was hardware/software issue involved (legacy kit); but if I had to use one of that strain I'd use '98SE - with updates.
I doubt you would end up in the same mess again if you did decide try to add ME (or '98)...) again - no access to either XP and/or W2K. And restoring access to both would (should) be a very simple process whether or not you succeeded in getting ME installed, or had to abort it... But as this laptop is needed for "work" it may not be worth candle and frustrations that may arise trying again with ME.
I admire your perserverance etc.; many (a chap...) would have given up by now. At the least, as a result of all the input from folks here, you have a wealth of assorted info/ideas and links that may be useful in the future...?
The CD issue not being read (especially the ME one - but also the W2K on occassion...) who knows? It may be an issue with the CDs - they're not all perfect...; and I have seen comments around that some brands will not work in some CD/DVDROM units at all - or are very selective...?
Possibly this is the case for the ME CD at least?
Keep "us" posted on what you decide etc. re installing ME?
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Well, guys, I've decided not to risk it with another attempt to install ME. Right now, I've got XP and W2K up-and-runing just fine. The last time I tried to install ME after having the other two already installed, I could only get into ME. And then I had to reformat and reinstall XP and W2K from scratch. I just don't have the time to continue playing around with this anymore. I need to get some work done! <g>
I want to thank you both, though, for all the help, time and suggestions you've provided. Even though we weren't able to get it figured out, I do have a wealth of information now at my disposal in case I decide to do something similar in the future!
Thanks again!
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