Our opinions are irrelevant. Hire an intellectual property lawyer to read and translate the OEM WMCE EULA for you. But then who (incl. M$) is to know if pennies change hands M$ is like the IRS - they want to know even if it's only pennies. i_XpUser

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You stated you upgraded to Vista. That would be the key. An upgrade is cheaper because it is assummed you are using it to replace the OLD OS. If you have circumvented that process then I would say you are violating the EULA agreement. If you have a computer that came with WinXP pre-installed and that same computer is still intact and still running that same XP install I believe it is legal to sell the computer. The OS just goes along for the ride. That OS is attached EXCLUSIVELY to that hardware set.

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OtheHill I have to agree with you. Didn't M$ say that if you upgrade to Vista, the product key for the earlier OS will no longer be valid? i_XpUser

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That goes for ANY upgrade.

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Then what good is it to sell OEM WMCE without a product key! i_XpUser

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XPuser, why wouldn't the poster have an installation key? Technically the license in question was purchased attached to hardware. Legally it is supposed to stay with that hardware. There was much tado about restrictive OEM licensing that would accompany VISTA. MS seemed to backoff some but I believe the EULA is still quite restrictive. OEM WinXP licences were supposedly also restrictive but MS allowed you to reregister when making substancial hardware changes. Going back to the poster's question when they upgraded to Vista the license they upgraded from was no longer valid. As a practical matter I am unsure if MS can actually track every license. I have read and heard of folks using one copy of XP on two computers and getting by. I personally have no experience with this issue other than recycling Win98SE to a number of different configurations. I think this was possible because of the way MS attempted to control use of the software. There are still many folks that don't even understand the concept of ONLY one computer. This whole thread may be a mmot point anyway. I have NO experience with Vista but I thought you needed to have WinXP installed and registered in order to install an upgrade? If this is what was done in this case then the poster may be risking thier Vista registration if the original WMCE software is installed and registered. If on the otherhand this poster is using the word upgrade loosely and actually purchased a OEM or retail version I think they may be in a grey area as the license is no longer attached to the hardware it was purchased with. The solution would be for the poster to use the license themselves, thereby honoring the spirit of the EULA.

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"...But then who (incl. M$) is to know if pennies change hands..." I was effecctively suggesting (perhaps a little naughty...) that "What the eye doesn't see, the heart doesn't miss" (as was said in days of yore...). In other words you donate the OS etc... and the recipient donates (to you) a few pennies (figuratively speaking of course...); and just how many etc... would not be known to M$ (or the IRS) unless one told them... All one might do its to inform M$ (not the IRS) that one has transferred full ownership of sed OS to another... Mind you in the world of Chertoff (Homeland Sekurity Gruppenfuherer...) who know who is listening into to whom; who is tapping whose phones, insepcting whose emails...? But the more serious considerations re' type of EULA etc. are essential to consider and treat in a more serious vein... It used to be that one could transfer full ownership of an OS to third party - as long as one included all relevant disks, the COA and any other relevant info...; and informed M$ of the change of ownership. So far as I can recall there was no prohibition on exchanging it for a few pennies on the way...? Perhaps this one for the Corporate/Property/copyright lawyers to come in on?

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I would suspect you're right Othehill. You will probably have to have XP installed in order to run the upgrade version of Vista. Like you, I haven't played with Vista at all (and likley won't for at least another year til the bugs are worked out and it has a decent set of drivers....lol). I know the last time I performed an upgrade from 98 to XP, you had to have the 98 CD handy, or have the OS actually installed in order to do the upgrade. I can't see MS changing that for Vista. So, if it is indeed an upgrade version, you will have to keep your XP disc in case you ever have to reinstall. Since MS has likely made it a part of the package, it would be illegal to sell your copy of XP as long as you own an upgrade version of Vista. If you had bought the full version of Vista, then XP isn't required to install Vista and you could sell it. Remember, you don't own XP, or Vista or any OS or any other software for that matter. You're paying to license it to use it legally. MS owns the OS software and is only basically renting it to you. Not that that makes it illegal to sell your legally licensed copy of XP (providing your copy of Vista is the full version, not the upgrade version). Who's to know if you do. And, even if it were illegal, you could "give" somebody your copy of XP and he/she in return could "give" you some money because he likes you........there's nothing "illegal" about that.

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>> Technically the license in question was purchased attached to hardware. << I purchased an OEM version of Windows XP along with a hard disk which conforms to MSs rules regarding OEM software. Are you saying that if this hard disk fails, then legally I should go out an buy another copy of Windows XP. Yeh! sure I will. There is not a court in the UK that would uphold such restrictive practises, regardless of how loud Bill Gates shouts. >> I have NO experience with Vista but I thought you needed to have WinXP installed and registered in order to install an upgrade? << If it is anything like an upgrade of Windows XP, no you don't, just the qualifying disk. I have an Non-OEM upgrade version of Windows XP Prof and when doing a clean install it asks for a qualifying previous version. For this I use Windows NT 4, which is itself a retail OEM version. At no time does it ask for a Windows NT installation key. Stuart

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StuartS As I stated I haven't used Vista. However I have read more than one article concerning this issue. Unless MS has backed off from thier pre-release policy supplying the disk would no longer be suffiecent. XP needs to be installed. This may have changed since then due to the uproar from the entheuseist community. Most knowledgeable people would prefer a clean install, which isn't what MS stated would be possible. The premise that the OEM OS goes with the hardware is the MS rule. As you are aware, Dell, Gateway, etc. pre-install OEM versions of Windows. These versions are linked to the hardware and can't be moved to a different machine. I assume that because of the large number of units sold with pre-installed units MS has taken extra diligence with these units. I also assume the these vendors pay a fraction of what we would pay for an OEM version. MS insists all OEM Windows licenses only be sold with qualifying hardware. Many vendors don't actually meet MS criteria in that they sell OEM with any hardware purchase. The qualifying purchase is suppose to be an integral piece of hardware that is needed for the computer to operate. With XP the activation rules were basically expanded by MS to allow reactivation after significant changes in the computer. This is counter to thier own EULA. With VISTA they initally decided to tighten up the enforcement. I don't believe simply replacing the HD would stop your computer from booting and flag as in need of re-registration. In summation, MS has had restrictive rules for some time but has found ways to enforce them since the advent of product registration requirements for operation. They control what can and can't be done.

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I just downloaded the EULA for VISTA. Here is the link. Tkae note of #13, 15b & 16b. These are similiar to the XP EULA. Overall this EULA is more restrictive. http://download.microsoft.com/docum...

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mmm... time to go back the zx81, or the Acorn/BBC-Micro, or the Commodore etc... and cpm... No issues there with M$ control freakery etc...

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Isn't it amazed that 40 million of us bought Vista in a two month period (according to Gates & his monkeyboy that used his own monkey-made calculator) i_XpUser

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Haven't met a soul yet who did buy it... and seriously doubt I will for some considerable time... Now that XP is reasonably sound - why the need to spend more pennies on an "upgrade" to another untried and really unnecessary M$-OS...? Clearly Bill and his chums are trapped in a virtual world of their own...?

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I saw this before going to be bed but decided to not respond until after seeing the assorted & presumably controversial responses the thread would generate. Lo & behold it did do that. IMO, this is one of those common sense dilemmas & there is no need to view this from the perspective of a piracy motivated transaction. Agreed that "leasing" a Windows license implicitly interdicts selling the license since the end user does not technically own it - but give me a break! Viv is not trying to setup a piracy cartel here, I bet he/she is just another easy going individual trying to dispose of what they no longer have any use for at probably a very reduced rate - I really can't imagine M$ going after someone like that for prosecution in a piracy suit. Last time I checked about a dozen states are still yet to repeal the law prohibiting oral sex even between married couples, but you won't find folks from these states inquiring about the act even though the penalty is 1 to 20 year mandatory jail sentence - steep, eh! If I was Viv, I would make sure I do not have a copy of the OS activated with the same license on any other system before unloading the OS (disc & license) to an interested buyer. There is hardly any need to over analyze the situation here.

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Sabertooth A agree with most of what you say. Where we disagree is with your advice. To respond to your analogy about oral sex I would agree that folks do things that may be illegal. The issue is IF they ask supposed experts for an opinion on the legality of something that is what should be given. I am of the opinion that MS strongarms users with these rules. That said, they are the rules.

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The question is: do you need the help or don't you? If you want help sell it. If you don't need/want help don't sell because, you'll be getting helped.

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Ummm... now I'm really konphuzzed... That last post was bit along the lines of Rumsfeld's (in)famous "...things you know you don't know, things you don't know you don't know..." and so on...

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There are always ways around the rules. Just charge $100 for the CD case & throw in the XPMedia CD for free. ;-)

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......without the license (Product Key) the CD case & the disc doesn't amount to anything........LOL

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but then the license might well be (accidnetally) trapped within the back-plate area of the case...?

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Thanks for all the posts and opinions...I didn't expect this much controversy over my question...LOL Othehill you stated: "Viv is not trying to setup a piracy cartel here, I bet he/she is just another easy going individual trying to dispose of what they no longer have any use for at probably a very reduced rate - I really can't imagine M$ going after someone like that for prosecution in a piracy suit. " AND...you stated: "If I was Viv, I would make sure I do not have a copy of the OS activated with the same license on any other system before unloading the OS (disc & license) to an interested buyer. There is hardly any need to over analyze the situation here." First off lemme tell you that you are 100% correct, I am not trying to create a piracy cartel here. I am simply trying to sell an O/S that is no longer on my PC. And...I did some research too after all these posts and it seems that what you posted with the link is correct... " #13. UPGRADES. To use upgrade software, you must first be licensed for the software that is eligible for the upgrade. Upon upgrade, this agreement takes the place of the agreement for the software you upgraded from. After you upgrade, you may no longer use the software you upgraded from." With that, it seems that my XP Media Center CD is no longer being used by me, seeing how my Vista upgrade took over. I also did some research and found out that if I had to reinstall my Vista upgrade on the same PC, it would work without XP being on there because of Vista being there now. When I had my PC custom built, my friend that built it for me asked me to buy the O/S that I wanted him to install, so I bought it right off the store shelf. I do have the actual COA and original CD's and case etc. And, I don't have it on any other PC in this house as all the PC's here have their own OEM CD's. So, I think I am ok, but a lot of the posts here made me think twice about it...and...I DO appreciate everyone's opinions here...I need to think a little bit more about it and possibly call M$ and ask them, seeing how I have nothing to hide and am not trying to do anything illegal. Hmmm... Thanks...all. Sincerely, Viv Never enter a battle of wits with an unarmed person...

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Viv I didn't say those things. I don't think you are a pirate though. I simply tried to state the facts as I know them. Now that you are back on the thread please answer if the Vista License is an upgrade or full license.

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Othehill...sorry...my bad...it was all meant for Sabertooth...LOL...sorry. It is a Vista upgrade... Again, I apologize for directing my post above to you... Never enter a battle of wits with an unarmed person...

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When you upgraded using that license and CD your right to use the old XP license and CD were voided. I assume you installed over the top of WinXP? When you registered, or Vista did that automatically, the old registration data and new Vista registration were linked in MSoft database. If the old WinXP software were installed it probably would not register.

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I see... Yes, I installed right over XP. I may just call M$ and talk to them about it. Thanks for writing back... Viv Never enter a battle of wits with an unarmed person...

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After you talk to MS come back and tell us about it.

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".....the old registration data and new Vista registration were linked in MSoft database. If the old WinXP software were installed it probably would not register." The above is not the case, there is nothing linking the keys to one another AFAIK. Moreover, there is a "perfectly ethical & M$ acknowledged" method of performing a clean install of Vista using just the upgrade DVD - albeit a tad convoluted.

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Sabertooth - Where were you shortly after Brian Livingston article first appeared? You must have missed reading M$ disputes HERE and HERE. i_XpUser

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Sabertooth All you state may be true but doesn't change the fact that the poster here used an upgrade version of Vista to install Vista on her computer. This invalidated the OEM WinXP license. This is spelled out quite clearly in the Vista EULA I linked to. What folks do or not do is thier business, but the poster asked a straighforward question and the answer is that it isn't legal to sell or transfer that OEM license. This is the reason UPGRADE licenses are cheaper than Retail.

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XpUser, I am sorta confused about your linked articles since they appear AFAICT as having nothing to do with the upgrade disc installation for Vista - I'm not sure what I am supposed to make of the articles since they primarily deal with activation workarounds which is not what this is about. OtheHill, I don't think anyone here is flagrantly suggesting that Viv should henceforth saddle up & become an outlaw & start breaking laws starting with Windows.......LOL What some of us are implying is for the OP to research all his/her options so he/she is able to make an informed decision. I'm not going to argue about what should take precedence between common sense or EULA. That is strictly for individual computer users to decide. Threads like this remain one of the reasons why I like CN. I have & will continue to recommend many with computer inquiries to the site because I believe (in the grand scheme of things) that there are no slights of hand on the site - you'll be helped with your issue & you also get a nice little education to go with the help. Not bad eh! Gosh! I hope you are not taking any of these responses personally because none of them are supposedly like that ;-)

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I love a great debate anyway. If necessary I will take the opposing view.

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Othehill... I did contact MS and here is my full conversation with them, straight from the source... This should clear up all the different debates here... it sure cleared things up for me too...LOL Welcome to Microsoft Windows Vista Chat Support The Windows Vista Chat Session has been accepted. {Vivian}Hello {Abdul}Thank you for choosing Microsoft Windows Vista Chat Support. My name is Abdul Rahim. May I address you as Vivian? {Vivian}of course {Vivian}did you see my question?? {Abdul}Please give me 3-4 minutes, while I go through your case records and get back to you soon. {Vivian}ok {Abdul}Thank you very much. {Vivian}yw {Abdul}Thank you Vivian, being online. {Vivian}yw {Abdul}From the case description , I understand that you have query on selling your OEM windows vista media center. Am I right? {Vivian}correct {Abdul}Thank you Vivian for confiming it. {Vivian}I just want to know if it is legal, if it is NOT on my PC anymore seeing how I upgraded to Vista and it is not on any other PC {Abdul}yes, I understand that and I will surely tell you what you have to do. {Abdul}To make sure I have it right, could you please confirm the following information? {Abdul}Vivian, we shall trouble-shoot this issue in this session itself. But speaking generally if we do need to contact you for a follow-up, what would be the ideal time to contact you? (A two hour time slot with the time zone, please) {Vivian}6 to 8pm EDT {Abdul}Thank you. {Abdul}Vivian, you can sell your OEM disc to your friends and in any auction web sites like e-bay,etc., But you can use them on only one single system. {Vivian}ok, I only have the one disc and I don not have it on any other system...everyone in this house has their own legal versions of different Windows versions, so no one has it. {Vivian}But, I also want to know something {Abdul}That's cool and fine. {Abdul}Please go ahead. {Vivian}when I upgraded from the XP Media Center to Vista, did that make the XP Media center null and void as far as the product key and all,. on my PC?? Meaning, it is now replaced with my Vista and therefore the XP does not exsit on my PC, correct?? {Vivian}and... {Abdul}yes, you are right. and now you have only windows vista on your machine and not XP. {Vivian}if I should ever have to format my HD, how will I do that with an upgrade version of my Vista?? {Vivian}ok {Abdul}Vivian, since you have upgraded to windows vista from XP, your XP product key is working in your system, so you will be unable to use them in other systems. {Vivian}what I really mean is...it is an upgrade and not the full version, is it still installable if I ever have to format?? {Vivian}so, that is telling me that I can't sell it, cause the product key will not work on some buyer's PC, correct?? {Abdul}yes, you can use the upgrade disc to perform a clean install on your system after performing a format on your hard drive. But we have a to follow a method to install it. {Abdul}yes, you are right. {Vivian}I C {Vivian}so, what is the point of selling it then if a buyer can't use the XP product key?? {Abdul}What you can do is, you can only sell it. when the XP is completely wiped of from your system. {Vivian}ohhhhh I C {Vivian}so, if I format, and reinstall my upgrade of Vista, then there is no more XP and it is sellable... {Abdul}That means , if you format your hard drive and use the upgrade disc of windows vista to install newly on your system.it would be possible. {Vivian}ok, now...how would I go about reinstalling the upgraded version of Vista should I have to format?? {Abdul}yes, you are right. {Vivian}but... {Abdul}you need to know, how to perform a clean install on a upgrade disc. Am I rioght? {Vivian}when I first got Vista, I made a mistake on the install, so I completely wiped out my XP Media Center and tried to just install Vista, and a message popped up and told me that an upgrade version can't be done as a clean install, so.... {Vivian}yes, {Vivian}I reinstalled XP, reactivated it, and then did the upgrade install again and all was fine, so I am confused as to how I can clean install the upgrade, if I couldn't do it once before. {Abdul}Don't worry , I will tell you how to perform a clean install with the upgrade disc. {Vivian}cause I may do that, as all my data and everything else is on my external HD and I don't have to worry about backing anything up... {Abdul}Okay Vivian. then you have no problem in performing a clean install. am I right? {Vivian}correct, as far as backing everything up {Vivian}I just have my O/S on my C drive {Abdul}Okay. To perform a clean install. {Vivian}ok... {Abdul}Just insert your windows vista DVD and boot your system from DVD , run the installation setup now. {Abdul}please wait, it still lot of steps required. {Vivian}sure will... {Abdul}This process involves running Setup for Windows Vista two times. To do this, follow these steps: 1. Start the computer from the Windows Vista DVD. 2. Click Install Now. 3. When you are prompted to enter the product key, do not enter a product key. Click Next. 4. You are prompted about whether you want to go back and enter a product key. Click No to continue. 5. When you are prompted to specify the edition of Windows Vista, select the edition that corresponds to the Windows Vista upgrade product key. 6. Continue through the clean installation process. 7. After the installation has been completed successfully, restart the Setup process in Windows Vista. This is also known as an in-place upgrade. 8. When you are prompted to enter the product key, enter the Windows Vista upgrade product key. 9. Continue through the in-place upgrade process. {Abdul}yes, you must be at the desktop of windows vista and run the setup again. and this time you have to choose upgrade option and enter the product key to finish the installation. {Abdul}Okay, I will sent you a mail with my mail id and mangers mail and the step's to be done for your future reference. {Vivian}very interesting...I would have never have known that...so, actually my upgrade would be considered as a full-version once I did all that, correct?? {Vivian}oh, TY Abdul {Abdul}Are you completely satisfied with the support. {Abdul}only the product key makes it as a clean installation disc or an upgrade disc. {Vivian}and, once that is reinstalled, then and only then I can sell my XP Media center, correct?? {Abdul}yes, you are right. {Vivian}ok, then I may do all that this weekend... {Abdul}That's fine. {Vivian}thank you Abdul, you were very helpful to me and I appreciate the info. {Abdul}Do you think that, microsoft has provided you the proper solution for your issue. {Abdul}you are welcome, Vivian. {Vivian}Like I said, I wanted to do it all legally as I never had any thing illegal from Microsoft. {Vivian}LOL {Abdul}That's good of you and nice to hear from a true microsoft customer. {Vivian}Goodnight Abdul, or rather good morning?? LOL {Abdul}That's great that you have find my location too. {Vivian}Well, I do not believe in piracy...LOL {Abdul}that's cool. {Vivian}good night...and thanks again... {Abdul}May I call you , so that my managers wants to have a word on your issue. {Vivian}sure... {Abdul}good night and thank you very much for your co-operation. {Vivian}yw...bye bye... {Abdul}I appreciate your patience too, because without that I would not able to tell you all these things. {Vivian}sure...LOL Never enter a battle of wits with an unarmed person...

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Then sell your OEM WMCE - with M$ blessings. i_XpUser

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Viv, Thanks for getting back to us. I Assume that you recorded this conversation with Abdul? I am planning to save a copy of this text. This is very interesting that MS tech support is instructing someone how to use a backdoor installation that was discovered by an enduser and then disemmenated on the web. I read about this technique some time ago. I guess if MS gives thier blessing we should all take advantage of it. This means that you can KEEP your WinXP box running and use an upgrade version of Vista on a new build. Good to know. Thanks for getting back to us with this info. I just now linked to this Q&A on the MS Windows site: http://www.microsoft.com/windows/wi... Can I transfer or give away old versions of my products when I acquire an upgrade? No. Since the original full product and the upgrade product together are considered a single software unit, you must retain the old product to remain legally licensed.

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Below is something from the same link as above. "Is it legal for me to sell software that I have bought and used?" In some circumstances, yes, as long as you follow the terms of transfer outlined in your license agreement. You may not rent or lease the software, but you may transfer your rights under the End User License Agreement (EULA) on a permanent basis provided you transfer all copies of the software and all written materials, including the original license agreement and the Certificate of Authenticity (COA) where applicable. For any valid transfer, the software recipient must agree to the terms of the EULA. Any transfer must include the most recent product upgrade as well as any prior versions that you have. Prior to transferring your software, you must remove all copies of the product from your computer, including your portable computer, in instances where a second copy is allowed. If you want to transfer software that was licensed under a multiple license pack, you must transfer all the product copies to a single new owner. Microsoft License Paks cannot be broken up. Many Microsoft products distributed by original equipment manufacturers (OEMs) may not be transferred under any circumstances. Check the terms of the EULA accompanying the OEM products to determine transferability."

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Othehill, Yes, I suppose you can keep the XP on another PC and do the clean install on another PC of Vista. But, in my circumstance, I am going to format my HD, to wipe out XP WMCE and then do the clean install of Vista as he instructed me, and then sell the XP WMCE. I read the link you posted, but it seems to contradict what I was told, seeing how the upgrade can be done as a clean install and the old O/S will no longer exist. Sabertooth, What you posted is exactly what I am going to do...remove all traces of it from my PC, provide the COA, CD and everything else. So, according to them (MS), I will be ok to do it all legally. He knew that I have an OEM version and still told me it was ok to sell after my format. Boy, I never thought that this simple question was going to generate so many posts...LOL BUT, I do appreciate ALL the feedback, and all your thoughts (from everyone here). Thanks everyone for being so involved with my question...muchly appreciated! Sincerely, Viv Never enter a battle of wits with an unarmed person...

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Viv The point I was making was the person you spooke with is obviosly misinformed. I suggest you keep a copy of that conversation. I would believe the information posted on the Microsoft site before a level one off shore tech. The reason upgrade versions cost less is because they REPLACE the old version. That said, you were told it was OK so go for it.

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Othehill, I most certainly did make a copy of the entire conversation. And, perhaps you are right about what you said as far as whom to believe... Hmmm, something to ponder... I certainly appreciate your advice and everyone elses for that matter. From all this, now I am seriously thinking of scraping the whole idea of selling it, seems it just may not be worth it, LOL We'll see...LOL Thanks again... Sincerely, Viv Never enter a battle of wits with an unarmed person...

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By all means sell the copy. You were authorized to do so. I just think Abdul told you to use a hack that was discovered by an end user. Think about it, if MS really felt it was OK why would the screen say otherwise. Hang on to that copy of XP and you will get more for it in 6 month or a year from now when MS stops selling XP. Can't recall the latest cutoff date.

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Yeah, I certainly will, it is not worth it to sell it now...I will wait till MS stops selling it as you said...good idea... But, I certainly learned a lot from this thread... Viv Never enter a battle of wits with an unarmed person...

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