Problems with a cloned drive

ACPI Uniprocessor PC
April 7, 2008 at 20:31:49
Specs: XP Pro SP2 / 1.67GHz, Athalon / 768 MB

Dear group:

I bought a 160GB Maxtor Diamondmax 21 hard drive to use as a backup. The drive that is currently in my computer is a Western Digital WD800 80GB drive. I partitioned off 100GB on the Maxtor to be a primary partition.

I am using Norton Ghost 12.0

I first made a 100 GB primary partition on the new Maxtor drive.

I used the "Copy My hard drive under "Tools" and it takes me to the "Copy Drive Wizard."

I checked the box "Set drive active (for booting OS)."

I also check the box "Copy MBR."

Once copied I looked at both drives by clicking on My computer and the clicking the drive letters. Everything was copied.

However, there was a slight difference in the total used space. Under the C drive properties the used space was 66,935,652,352 bytes. Under the D drive properties the used space was 66,929,106,946 bytes. Why is it smaller?

The other thing I dont understand is Local Disk (c:) total size is 74.5 GB with 12.1 GB of free space. The Local Disk (D:) total size is 100 and the free space is only 37.6 GB. But the Maxtor drive is a 160 GB drive. What happened to the other 22.4 GB?

Next I set the jumper on the Maxtor to be the master and when I turned the computer on the green power light was "on" and the amber hard drive light was not flashing but instead it stayed lit. And the screen was black the whole time. I didnt even see the normal text that scrolls up the screen before Windows starts. Why wouldnt the computer boot from the new copied drive?

I really need to get Western Digital drive duplicated onto the Maxtor and have it bootable because this computer is about 6 years old and the original drive wont last for ever.

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks!

kerry


See More: Problems with a cloned drive

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#1
April 7, 2008 at 21:23:35

http://www.xxclone.com/

I would start over and use XXClone

Here is a list of major features of XXCLONE.

XXCLONE supports Microsoft Windows NT4, 2000 and XP.

XXCLONE duplicates the Windows system volume and makes the target volume self-bootable.

XXCLONE can duplicate both the system volume and non-system volumes.

XXCLONE can perform an Incremental Backup to cut down the time for a periodic backup.

XXCLONE can copy a source volume to a much larger volume.

The target volume can even be smaller than the source as long as there is enough space available to hold the volume.

XXCLONE supports FAT16, FAT32, and NTFS partitions.
It's freeware!


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#2
April 7, 2008 at 21:43:38

Greetings Cuffy!

Thanks for the program link. But what I still do not understand is why would my BIOS not see the Maxtor drive as the master drive? I never saw any of the information that scrolls up the screen when you start the computer. You know, all the sh*t you see right before you see the Windows logo.

As I said before I checked the box "Set drive active (for booting OS)."

I also check the box "Copy MBR."

What could be causing the BIOS not to see the Maxtor as the master drive? I completely disconnected the old drive and I know I have the jumper on the Maxtor set right and I connected the Maxtor to the connector that says "Master" on the ribbon cable. What could be the problem?

If I use XXCLONE I fear I will have the same problems.

I used Maxtor's software to make a bootable new hard drive and I used the Norton Ghost 12.0 to make a bootable new hard drive and both times all the data was copied but the computer would not boot from the Maxtor. Do you have any idea why?

I will try your suggestion. I hope someone can answer all my questions. I have cloned drives in the past using Ghost and had no problems. There is some reason the BIOS wont let the computer boot from the new Maxtor drive. I need to know why.

Thanks for any help!

kerry


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#3
April 7, 2008 at 22:04:17

My approach is simple. If Plan A doesn't work, press on the Plan B.
I've used XXClone many times without incident so I know it works. Just make sure you have all the necessary switches included and it works perfectly, or has in my case.
Clone your original system drive to the 100GB partition on the new HDD.
Make sure it's active, switch jumpers on the two HDDs and it should boot per Plan A to the new 100GB partition.
I'm clueless as to what happened with the other software?

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Related Solutions

#4
April 7, 2008 at 22:05:10

From my experience you cannot accomplish what you are trying to do. I suggest that you either:
1. Follow Cuffy's advice, or:
2. Image the complete drive and if Ghost gives you the option to limit the first partition on the second drive, use that.

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#5
April 7, 2008 at 23:45:45

Thanks Cuffy for the additional advice.

I was wondering, what is "Plan B?" Also if you could elaborate on "Just make sure you have all the necessary switches included." I am not sure I understand what you mean by "switches."

And the other part I don't completely understand is "Make sure it's active, switch jumpers on the two HDDs and it should boot per Plan A to the new 100GB partition." When you say "Make sure it's active" what are you refering to when you say "it?"

And finally where you said "switch jumpers on the two HDDs" what jumpers and how do the jumpers have to be set on the two HDDs? Set how? In others words which ones are master, slave or cable select?

Thanks for all the help!

kerry


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#6
April 7, 2008 at 23:54:13

Set the new drive to "Master" and the old to "Slave" (or remove it completely).

Please let us know if you found someone's advice to be helpful.


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#7
April 8, 2008 at 00:14:05

"the Maxtor drive is a 160 GB drive. What happened to the other 22.4 GB?"

160gb is the manufacturer's stated size - it's always stated as a decimal size (based on powers of 10) e.g. 1gb = 1,000,000,000 bytes

The size in most computer bioses, and ALWAYS in your operating system, is stated as a binary size (based on powers of 2)
l kilobyte = 1,024 bytes
1mb = 1,024 kb
1gb = 1,024 mb = 1,073,741,824 bytes

Using binary notation for data storage makes perfect sense - a bit can only be off or on; 0 or 1. There are 8 bits in a byte.

It's bogus that manufacturers use kb, mb, and gb the same as used for binary sizes, but nobody ever bothered to use something else for one or the other.

So 160gb manufacturer's decimal size is = 149gb binary size in most bioses, and in Windows before the drive is partitioned and formatted.

The total number of bytes and the total number or sectors is the same.

You lose some more when you partition and format a drive - that uses up part of the drive space and that amount can't be used for data.
Plus, 2000 and XP often leave 8mb, or as close as it can get to that, unpartitioned at the end of each physical drive.

Most programs and utilities that can make partitions also use the binary size.
........


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#8
April 8, 2008 at 01:58:47

"The Local Disk (D:) total size is 100 and the free space is only 37.6 GB. But the Maxtor drive is a 160 GB drive. What happened to the other 22.4 GB?"

That would be 37.6GB free space on the 100GB partition. If you look in "Disk Management", you'll see that you also have some unallocated space on that drive. That's the unpartitioned space, or the remainder of your 160GB (149GB binary).

You can partition the unallocated space from within Disk Management. As Tubesandwires explained, your total size (100GB + unallocated) will be around 149GB.

Please let us know if you found someone's advice to be helpful.


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#9
April 8, 2008 at 08:52:08

Kerry,
Did you get your drive cloned and set to boot from the new drive?

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#10
April 8, 2008 at 10:32:37

Dear Cuffy:

I used XXClone to copy the master data to the slave. I am still having the same problem as before. When I make the Maxtor the master and remove the Western Digital nothing comes up on the screen. The hard drive light say constantly on.

What is going on?

I also have another problem caused by XXClone. When I put the Western Digital back on as master and remove the Maxtor I get the following message.

Please select the operating system to start:

XXCLONE: (Cloned Volumn) [d:0,p:1] \ WINDOWS

XXCLONE: (Target Volumn) [d:0,p:1] \ WINDOWS

Now what do I do to get rid of this? There must be some way to stop this from comming up every time I start my computer using only the Western Digital drive.

I have to get this Maxtor drive to be bootable by today. Today is my deadline.

Thanks for any help!

kerry


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#11
April 8, 2008 at 11:21:42

Dear Cuffy:

When I used XXClone I had the following options set.

Under the "Operation Mode" tab the only choice is "Back up the entire volumn by copying all the files from scratch. (/backup 1)"

Then under the "Cool Tools" tab I made the Target Volumn self-bootable.

I copied the Volumn's ID (serial number)from source to target.

I modified the BOOT.INI file in the source volumn (to test the target).

I made a Quick Boot Diskette.

The help file says "the Quick Boot Diskette (QBD) that will be good not only for booting into the newly created cloned volume" but it did nothing.

What did I do wrong?

How can I get the computer to boot from the cloned hard drive?

Thanks for any help!

kerry


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#12
April 8, 2008 at 11:27:27

Dear Cuffy:

Also why is this program so slow at cloning a hard drive? I started it at 2:32 am and it didnt finish until 8:30 am. That's 6 hours to clone only 55 GB of data.

Is there some way to make this program clone faster?

Thanks for any help!

kerry


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#13
April 8, 2008 at 12:18:24

Do you have the newly cloned drive set as Master with the HDD jumper?
You copy from the old master to a new slave.
Then change the jumper on the newly created partition to MASTER and remove your old drive from the system Temporarily.
Just unplug the drive.......... you will have to remove it anyway because that now becomes the Slave and the jumper has to be changed to Slave.
Cable Select is a choice on both drives but I never use it. I want to know for sure so I use Master and Slave.
Bottom line:
You copied old to new, Master to Slave.
Now you reverse and make the Slave the New Master.
You should be able to boot to the new partition without the old drive being connected.


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#14
April 8, 2008 at 12:22:36

See response 3 in this:
http://computing.net/windowsxp/wwwb...

The latest version of MaxBlast......
- is made for use with Maxtor and Seagate drives - it will support other drive brands/models as long as at least one hard drive on the computer is Maxtor or Seagate.
- is relatively fast at cloning. However, how long any such program takes to clone depends directly on how fast your cpu is and how much ram you have.
E.g. it took me about thirty minutes for about 60gb of data on a AM2 system with a 6000+ and 2gb of ram.
- the copy will be bootable no problem without you having to do anything extra
- this version is a somewhat crippled version of Acronis software.
It only copies the complete contents of the source drive whether it has one partition or many. It completely partitions and formats the destination partition(s) by default, filling the destination drive.
It has manual settings with which you can modify some defaults, but in your case you may not be able to have it NOT fill the entire second drive with one partition.

In that case, there are third party programs that can re-size the one partition smaller and allow you to make a second partition without you losing the data on the first one.
(you can't change partition sizes in XP itself without losing all the data)
E.g. Here's a free one:
http://www.partitionlogic.org.uk/


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#15
April 8, 2008 at 13:45:56

Dear Cuffy:

From your response 13.

"Do you have the newly cloned drive set as Master with the HDD jumper?"

Yes I did and I removed the old master and when I try boot from the new master nothing happens. The screen stays black and the hard drive light stays on.

Why cant I boot from the new master?

"You copy from the old master to a new slave."

Yes I did that too.

"Then change the jumper on the newly created partition to MASTER and remove your old drive from the system Temporarily."

I changed the jumper on the new drive to master. The computer would not boot from the new drive.

What do you think is the problem?

"You copied old to new, Master to Slave"

Yes I did.

"You should be able to boot to the new partition without the old drive being connected."

But it wont boot. In fact the screen stays black.

And now there is a new problem. When I slave the Maxtor drive and the old drive is the master I get a message that says "NTLDR is compressed"

What do I do now? I did insert the floppy I made with the XXClone program and it booted when I restarted the computer.

Why does this program cause these problems? How do I undo these problems?

And this is something that I hope you can tell me how to fix.

I also have another problem caused by XXClone. When I put the Western Digital back on as master and remove the Maxtor I get the following message.

Please select the operating system to start:

XXCLONE: (Cloned Volumn) [d:0,p:1] \ WINDOWS

XXCLONE: (Target Volumn) [d:0,p:1] \ WINDOWS

Now what do I do to get rid of this? There must be some way to stop this from comming up every time I start my computer using only the Western Digital drive.

I got the above message when the old master was connected. But when I connected the Maxtor as a slave I get that message "NTLDR is compressed" and the computer will not start until I put in the floppy I made with XXClone.

I hope you know how to fix all the above problems.

Thanks for any help!

kerry


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#16
April 8, 2008 at 14:33:35

Sounds like a mess and I never run across it before.
It boots from the floppy....
Can you run XXClone after booting with the floppy?
If you can get XXClone running then go to that Cool Tools tab and make the C:\ partition bootable.
Can you see C:\ after booting from floppy?
Strange?


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#17
April 8, 2008 at 14:46:06

Dear Tubesandwires:

I looked at that link you put in your response 14.

When I bought the Maxtor I used either MaxBlast or Partition Magic to make a primary 100GB partition. The other part that was left was made into a logical partition.

If he sees things like what is below, he will blow out an "O" ring.

Please select the operating system to start:

XXCLONE: (Cloned Volumn) [d:0,p:1] \ WINDOWS

XXCLONE: (Target Volumn) [d:0,p:1] \ WINDOWS

If you dont mind I would greatly appreciate you taking a look at my response 15 to Cuffy. I have given detailed descriptions of problems I started having after using XXClone.

Am I doing something wrong?

I need to produce an exact bootable reproduction that I can exchange for the original, without even the slightest noticeable difference.

Do you have any idea how the NTLDR got compressed?

This is really not a good thing. Is there some way to fix the NTLDR so it is not compressed? Please note that this message only shows up when I connected the Maxtor as a slave.

As I said before when I connect the Maxtor as a master and leave the old drive disconncted I dont see anything on the screen. It just stays black. Normally I would see the drives and other things.

Do you think the BIOS is the problem?

Do you think it is not going to work with the Maxtor no matter how I duplicate the old master?

I have never had problems like this before. I have used Ghost for years with no problems at all. I have used Partition Magic for years with no problems. When I bought the Maxtor drive I did try to partition off the 100GB partition and use MaxBlast to make a bootable copy of the old master to the Maxtor drive. But it would not boot.

So far everything I have done is not making the Maxtor bootable.

What could be the reason?

This is giving me a major anxiety attack. I have already taken 3mg of Xanax to help calm me down.

I have to have the Maxtor be able to boot the computer before midnight CDT or I will be in the unemployement line tomorrow. My boss says, "Failure is not an option."

I am desparate guys. I need all the help I can get to solve the problems I have listed above.

Thanks for all the help!

You guys are at least think of things I never would have been able to think of by myself.

Please don't give up on me yet. I am a chemist but my boss found out I knew how to make a bootable copy of a hard drive. And in the past I have never had a problem making a bootable copy of hard drives, until now.

I hope to God you guys will come up with something that will work for me.

Thanks for any ideas!

kerry


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#18
April 8, 2008 at 15:13:10

There's something missing in this picture somewhere. The initial problem where the new drive wasn't recognized by the BIOS...
You said you partitioned the drive at 100GB.
Did you format that partition because if you didn't, the BIOS can't see it.
Six hours to copy those files is way too long?????????????
No format or bad format would account for a lot of time but nothing would be copied, at least it sounds impossible.???
Could easily be a bad drive but an error should have turned up before this.

Time for Plan C maybe?
Can you reformat that drive?
Do you have the Windows CD/


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#19
April 8, 2008 at 16:26:44

"You said you partitioned the drive at 100GB.
Did you format that partition because if you didn't, the BIOS can't see it."

A hard drive does not need to be formatted in order for the BIOS to recognize it (otherwise, new drives would have to be shipped pre-partitioned and formatted). The BIOS sees the hardware itself (if compatible), not the contents of the hardware.

Kerry,
You stated that this was an older computer. It's possible that the BIOS is too old to recognize drives bigger than 137GB. Check the BIOS for an option to enable 48-bit LBA. That should solve any hard drive recognition problems.

If the WD is still bootable, start over with the Maxtor wiped clean (partitions deleted and recreated). Use the Maxblast software to make your clone.

Please let us know if you found someone's advice to be helpful.


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#20
April 8, 2008 at 16:50:26

Dear Cuffy:

In response to your response 16...

I can see C:\ after booting from the floppy.


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#21
April 8, 2008 at 17:56:23

Dear Cuffy:

In response to your response 19 here is what I found out.

"You said you partitioned the drive at 100GB. Did you format that partition because if you didn't, the BIOS can't see it."

I used MaxBlast to delete the partition so now I have one big 149GB partition on the Maxtor and the BIOS does see it as an IDE primary slave. The settings are [manual] and the access mode is [auto].

I could reformat that drive but once the partition is deleted all the data is destroyed. Right?

Thanks for all the help!

kerry


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#22
April 8, 2008 at 18:02:24

You blew away the partition and there's still data on the drive???

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#23
April 8, 2008 at 18:06:36

I've lost track of where you are and what you're doing???
Are you in Windows?


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#24
April 8, 2008 at 18:13:48

If ntldr is still missing or compressed........
Follow steps 4 through 10.
Insert the Windows XP bootable CD into the computer.
When prompted to press any key to boot from the CD, press any key.
Once in the Windows XP setup menu, press the “R” key to repair Windows.
Log into your Windows installation by pressing the “1″ key and pressing enter.
You will then be prompted for your administrator password; enter that password.
Copy the below two files to the root directory of the primary hard disk. In the below example we are copying these files from the CD-ROM drive letter “E.” This letter may be different on your computer.
copy e:\i386\ntldr c:\
copy e:\i386\ntdetect.com c:\
Once both of these files have been successfully copied, remove the CD from the computer and reboot.

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#25
April 8, 2008 at 18:31:02

Kerry,
I'm only going to be here another 30 mins.

If we don't connect and you still have a copy of Windows on your drive, ntldr problems, you need these files on C:\

copy e:\i386\ntldr c:\
copy e:\i386\ntdetect.com c:\

On the Win CD or from inside Windows in the i386 folder.
You have a bootable floppy so you could add the files to the floppy and then copy them to C:\


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#26
April 9, 2008 at 09:01:12

Dear Cuffy:

Response to your response 22.

I decided to just have one big 149GB primary partition on the Maxtor. The BIOS sees the drive as a slave when I hit the DEL key during boot up but when I cloned the drive with XXCopy and I made the cloned drive with a MBR so the computer should have booted from it. But like I said in several of my responses the computer didnt even see the new drive as a master. In fact the screen stayed black. I never saw the info that you normally see when you start a computer.

Why wont the computer see my new Maxtor when its set to master?

Thanks for any help!

kerry


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#27
April 9, 2008 at 10:18:23

Dear Cuffy:

Response to your response 23.

You said, "I've lost track of where you are and what you're doing???
Are you in Windows?"

I am still have the same problems that I stated in several of the above responses. So here they are again.

I explained the problems XXClone has caused. Here they are again.

1) When I start the computer now I see

Please select the operating system to start:

XXCLONE: (Cloned Volumn) [d:0,p:1] \ WINDOWS

XXCLONE: (Target Volumn) [d:0,p:1] \ WINDOWS

These two lines are in the boot.ini file. How do I get rid of them and make the boot.ini entries like they are supposed to be?

2) I need to produce an EXACT BOOTABLE REPRODUCTION of the old master. I need to be able to use it and be able to exchange it for the original, without even the slightest noticeable difference.

3) The computer will only start with the floppy I made using XXClone because I get the error message NTLDR compressed. I have the old drive as master and the new drive as the slave. The when it boots I get the information that is in problem #1 above. How do I fix that?

4) When I used XXClone I made the new partition bootable but the computer cant even see the Maxtor as a master. Why is that?

I hope you can figure this out. I am totally in the dark.

Thanks for all the help!

kerry


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#28
April 9, 2008 at 10:41:46

Dear Cuffy:

Response 18

You said,

"Can you reformat that drive?"

Yes I can reformat the new Maxtor.

"Do you have the Windows CD/"

Yes I have the orginal Win XP install disk.

Does that help?

Thanks!

kerry


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#29
April 9, 2008 at 10:58:44

See the end of response 14 if you still want two partitions on the drive.
However, I don't know if it detects SATA drives, which is what your Maxtor is.


"....the computer didnt even see the new drive as a master.In fact the screen stayed black."

Apparently your new Maxtor drive is SATA, the older WD is IDE.
So your mboard probably has both IDE and SATA headers on it.

SATA drives have no jumpers for master slave or cable select so they cannot be set to master or slave.
Whether they are seen as master or slave depends on which SATA header they are connected to.
E.g. the SATA headers are often different colors - one color, often red, are master and drives connected to them can be booted from; another color, often black, are slave and cannot be booted from.
On some mboards, all the SATA headers designate the drive as master.

The bios Setup has default settings that may affect which hard drive boots first, the default may change depening on whther SATA drives are connected or not - and sometimes you have to change the boot order in the bios or which hard model drive boots first when you add a drive.
E.g. some bioses will boot IDE drives first if they are the only type, but will default to booting SATA drives first if a SATA drive is connected and the mboard has SATA headers.
Also,
The info about that is in your mboard manual.

However, if MaxBlast allows the Maxtor to boot the way it is connected and XXclone doesn't in exactly the same situation, your problem is with the data on the drive, not the bios or drive connection.


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#30
April 9, 2008 at 15:48:04

"However, I don't know if it detects SATA drives, which is what your Maxtor is."

The Diamondmax 21 series of hard drive are available as either serial ATA or Ultra ATA. With a six year old motherboard, I doubt it has SATA headers.

Please let us know if you found someone's advice to be helpful.


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#31
April 9, 2008 at 21:12:04

"The Diamondmax 21 series of hard drive are available as either serial ATA or Ultra ATA. With a six year old motherboard, I doubt it has SATA headers."

Good point. I got this subject mixed up with another one I was answering.

In that case...

"....the computer didnt even see the new drive as a master.In fact the screen stayed black."

You can't have two drives jumpered master or two drives jumpered slave on the same data cable. Don't mix cable select jumpering and master or slave jumpering - some combinations still work, some don't.

See the end of response 14 if you still want two partitions on the drive.

It is common to un-intentionally damage IDE data cables, especially while removing them - the 80 wire ones are more fragile. What usually happens is the cable is ripped at either edge and the wires there are either damaged or severed, often right at a connector or under it's cable clamp there, where it's hard to see - if a wire is severed but it's ends are touching, the connection is intermittant.
Another common thing is for the data cable to be separated from the connector contacts a bit after you have removed a cable - there should be no gap between the data cable and the connector - if there is press the cable against the connector to eliminate the gap.
80 wire data cables are also easily damaged at either edge if the cable is sharply creased at a fold in the cable.

Try another data cable if in doubt.



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