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PC shuts off instead of restarting

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Name: vglover
Date: January 7, 2007 at 00:48:10 Pacific
OS: Windows XP Professional S
CPU/Ram: Intel Pentium 4 HT 3.0Ghz
Product: MDG
Comment:

Hi, I recently have some power issues since I just installed a Thermaltake Power supply on this computer as well as a fresh installment of Windows XP professional w/ SP2. My problem is, is that when I want to reboot, the computer decides to shutoff instead. Intriguing because I thought it would be an ACPI issue when I found out ACPI has nothing to do with restarting your computer from what I've been reading.

I upgraded my firmware from P14, to P25 on my Intel D865GBF Motherboard. This caused the computer to power on again when I did a turn off. Usually this happens if you have something waking up the computer, eg, LAN, PCI, some keyboard/mouse manufactures have drivers that cause this. So the best option would be to turn all of that off, even in Device Manager. That didn't work. But reverting back to P14 solved the problem.

I can live with Bios P14 for my mobo as I'm happy with it. Although, can anyone explain why my PC is shuting down and not restarting when I issue a restart? It's like this all started to happen when I first used the new power supply. It only has 2.0amps on the 5VSB rails. I'm not sure if this is causing any issues of why my mouse/keyboard isn't waking up the PC as well after it has been on standby.

Thank You



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Response Number 1
Name: Tubesandwires
Date: January 7, 2007 at 13:04:16 Pacific
Reply:

Did you load the drivers for the mboard chipset after you re-installed XP Pro, after Setup was finished? You MUST do that so that Windows has the proper information about the capabilities of the chipset. Otherwise, ACPI, and shutdown, restart. etc., may not work properly.

If shutdown, restart was working properly before, you certainly did not need to flash the bios. Changing the power supply makes no difference. Forgetting to install the chipset drivers certainly can make a difference.
After you flash the bios, the first time you boot you will get a "Cmos Checksum Error...." or similar message. You will either be prompted to enter the bios Setup or you will automatically go there. Enter the bios Setup, and load Bios Defaults - save settings, reboot. You MUST do this (or Clear the CMOS by moving a jumper on the mboard) in order for the bios update to be fully accepted by the mboard bios.
Loading Defaults may work in situations where Clear Cmos does not help.


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Response Number 2
Name: vglover
Date: January 7, 2007 at 19:48:04 Pacific
Reply:

I had the Intel Chipset drivers for this motherboard installed long ago. I don't think thats the issue. There are only jumper blocks for the bios on the motherboard. Jumper setting for pins 2-3 will enter a configure mode where you can clear passwords etc. Having no blocks on will do a recovery mode.

I don't understand why you want me to do that since the bios reports the latest BIOS revision. But since then, I downgraded because of the rebooting issue.

I think the power supply has something to do with waking up the computer from standby. If I click the mouse or press a button on the keyboard, nothing will happen. If I press the button on the wireless hub, then the computer comes on. Same if I disconnect and reconnect the hub via USB. Obviously when I press the button on the hub, it's sending a command to the computer. If you press a button on your keyboard, that message would be sent on a specific channel to the hub, and be identified via the composite device on a USB host controller. So in sleep mode, why wouldn't the keyboard work? Not enough power to the hub? Interesting... Some people said switching power supplies has helped this problem.


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Response Number 3
Name: Tubesandwires
Date: January 8, 2007 at 09:51:42 Pacific
Reply:

"I had the Intel Chipset drivers for this motherboard installed long ago. I don't think thats the issue."
You said:
"....I just installed a Thermaltake Power supply on this computer as well as a fresh installment of Windows XP professional w/ SP2."
If you haven't installed the chipset drivers in Windows since then, that probably IS the issue!

"I don't understand why you want me to do that since the bios reports the latest BIOS revision. But since then, I downgraded because of the rebooting issue."

If you were under the impression I wanted you to flash the bios, you are mistaken. You should never flash the bios unless you have specific information, such as in the release notes for a bios update, that doing so will fix a problem you were having. You had no justification for flashing the bios.
You are taking a big risk when you flash your bios - if the flash fails, and/or the flash chip physically fails while flashing (this is COMMON - these cheap flash chips can only be flashed an unpredictable small number of times), you will have a mboard that will not boot.
But since you did flash the bios, I was pointing out that you must load the bios defaults in the bios Setup settings - otherwise the main part of the bios is whatever version you flashed to, and the Cmos part is that of the previous version, or a mixture of the previous version and the new version, which can cause all sorts of problems.
If you want to go back to the newest bios version eventually, yes, you could do that.

The spec of the power supply that can determine whether your ACPI features including wakeup from .... work properly is the 5vsb - 5 volt standby - rating. The mboard manual may state what that has to be, minimum - the 2 amp rating of your Thermaltake PS is probably more than enough for that.

Assuming the power supply is working properly and has enough 5vsb current capacity available, whether the movement of a mouse or pressing a keyboard key, or any other thing such as something accessing a modem or a LAN or USB activity, wakes up your computer depends on:
- settings in your bios Setup pages to do with ACPI, or APM, and wake up on or with ... settings. If ACPI or APM is turned off, the wake up .... settings in the bios will not work.
- if you are using a USB keyboard and/or USB mouse, you may need to turn on USB legacy support, or USB keyboard and Mouse support, or similar, in the bios Setup pages, in order for the USB keyboard or mouse to be able to wake up your computer.
If you can't get into the bios while booting when you have a USB keyboard connected, you must temporarily use a PS/2 connected keyboard to get into the bios, and turn on USB legacy support, or similar, save settings, and from then on as long as that setting is enabled, you will be able to use a USB keyboard to get into the bios, and USB activity of the keyboard or mouse will wake up the computer if other settings are correct.
- in Windows:
- that you have the proper chipset drivers loaded
- what your settings in Control Panel - Power Options are

Even if everything is set right and the PS is fine and has enough 5vsb capacity, Windows support of ACPI features and how well Shutdown/Restart/Standby works sometimes doesn't work properly with some mboards no matter what you do, but if the mboard behaved properly before, that situation doesn't change when you change power supplies, unless the power supply is defective.


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Response Number 4
Name: Tubesandwires
Date: January 8, 2007 at 10:04:38 Pacific
Reply:

If the Thermaltake PS is not new, a Thermaltake PS is considered to be quite reliable but any PS can be defective and that alone can cause problems with Shutdown/Restart/Standby not working properly. In that case, try another PS temporarily if you can.


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Response Number 5
Name: vglover
Date: January 8, 2007 at 14:56:28 Pacific
Reply:

Sorry I made an error about installing the chipset. I put the PS in 2 months ago. So, since then, I have installed the chipset drivers.

Legacy USB is on, since I have Legacy devices on this PC, (Keyboard, Mouse). However, USB seems to be waking up because when I press the reset button on the wireless keyboard/mouse hub, the PC turns on! Ironic, as soon as it turns on, it turns off again. Figure that one out? You can simulate the waking up as well by pulling the USB cord out and pushing it back in again.

Something smells fishy if you ask me. Never had these problems with the other stock PS. Same keyboard, same mouse, same bios, same everything pretty much, of course with a fresh installment of XP.

Well I'm back to P14, the original bios. No harm done.

I'll try another Power Supply and report back when I'm done.

Thanks for the help.



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Response Number 6
Name: Tubesandwires
Date: January 8, 2007 at 18:56:16 Pacific
Reply:

"...when I press the reset button on the wireless keyboard/mouse hub, ...."

I have no idea what you are talking about.

If the keyboard and the mouse are USB connected but are not plugged into a port connected directly to the mboard, or a port directly connected to a PCI USB controller card in a slot, and are plugged into sort sort of USB hub instead, they may not work correctly - hubs do not work with everything, even if they are powered hubs. (an externally powered hub, that is one with an extra power supply, can supply 500ma to each port even if all ports in the hub are used - a normal, non-externally powered hub shares the 500ma from one mboard or USB card controller port with all the ports in the hub).


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Response Number 7
Name: vglover
Date: January 9, 2007 at 14:30:03 Pacific
Reply:

Your thinking about the wrong type of hub. Here is what I am talking about.

http://www.tweaknews.net/reviews/mi...

There is a rest button on there just to inform you.

Just say "Bus Power Hub" instead.

Bus powered buses are limited to 4 ports anyways because they can only use a total of 4 100mA units. But it doesn't matter anyways since I'm not using external hub. The only hub I'm using is the one built into the USB Host Controller itself.

See that pic above? As I stated, if I press the button on it, (reset button), that will wakeup the computer again, but then put it in back into sleep mode.

I was just thinking, I switched MinSleep to S3, before it was at S1 using dumppo. I'm not sure if this was when I started experiencing the "When I reboot, it shuts off syndrome".

Could there any settings in that program which could change it?


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Response Number 8
Name: Tubesandwires
Date: January 9, 2007 at 19:03:07 Pacific
Reply:

Unless you provide the model number of that Microsoft device, I have no idea what that is in that picture, and I don't see any USB connector on the cord. It looks like a dual (mouse/keyboard) PS/2 to USB adapter, or dual PS/2 to wireless adapter - it's not technically a hub.

"The only hub I'm using is the one built into the USB Host Controller itself."
That's not a USB hub, technically speaking - each port on the mboard is connected directly to a USB controller - often two ports connect to one controller, and you have two or more controllers, but on more recent mboards more than two ports may connect to one USB controller.

A hub more properly refers to something with 2 or more of the same type of ports that are shared for the same purpose - e.g. a USB hub (any usb device), or an Ethernet or Network (cable) hub (any ethernet device).

A PS/2 port for a mouse usually has different wiring from that of a PS/2 port for a keyboard (there are a few mboards where the wiring is there for either at either PS/2 port).

I don't know what dumppo is.
.....

I took a look at your manual.

Bios Setup settings.

Power - After Power Failure - you may want to set it to Stay Off (optional. Last State may not be what you want.)
Power - Wake on PCI PME - set it to Power On
Turning this on is necessary to be able to "wake" the computer. (mandatory)
Power - ACPI- ACPI Suspend State - the default S1 should be fine. It's unlikely it was S3 before. You could try S3 but I doubt it would help.
Power - ACPI- Wake on LAN from S5 - turn it on if you want that (optional; most people don't want that)

Wake Up Devices and Events - page 52 of the pdf.
It seems all those events except wake on LAN which isn't turned on by default will wake up the computer.
Many mentions of Wake in the manual.

Advanced - Peripheral Configuration - Parallel port - Mode - set it to EPP or ECP if you have any scanner or printer or multifunction device newer than 1998 or so connected to the parallel port - Bi-directional will not allow those to work properly. (mandatory if you have such a device).

Advanced - USB Configuration - USB 2.0 Legacy Support - you may want to set it to Hi Speed instead of Full Speed (optional).
.......

If that doesn't help, try another Power Supply.
It does say in the manual you must have adequate 5vsb capacity, but it doesn't seem to state how much, saying it depends on the power requirements of what you are waking up.



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Response Number 9
Name: Tubesandwires
Date: January 9, 2007 at 19:08:15 Pacific
Reply:

Oops -
saying it depends on the power requirements of what you are using to wake up the computer.


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Response Number 10
Name: vglover
Date: January 9, 2007 at 23:04:06 Pacific
Reply:

"Unless you provide the model number of that Microsoft device, I have no idea what that is in that picture, and I don't see any USB connector on the cord. It looks like a dual (mouse/keyboard) PS/2 to USB adapter, or dual PS/2 to wireless adapter - it's not technically a hub."

Actually, it's been called "receiver", "hub", alot of things. It's not a PS/2 to USB adapter. It's a USB to PS/2 adapter. It IS infact a USB device! It's a Microsoft Wireless Multimedia Keyboard W/ Mouse & Hub.

You could say that it is an hub and that it is brings connectivity to both keyboard and mouse. Therefor, they share the same purpose. To "Connect" to one device. That would be the same if you were to use the same logic of connecting two different devices to a USB hub such as a gamepad, or digital camera. Both devices are different, but they are of the same type; USB Devices.

"That's not a USB hub, technically speaking - each port on the mboard is connected directly to a USB controller - often two ports connect to one controller, and you have two or more controllers, but on more recent mboards more than two ports may connect to one USB controller."

It's actually a USB Root Hub. It's a hub too. Some of them have 2 ports like you said, others have 7. I have 4 USB Host controllers for this chipset. It's the USB controller that assigns each USB device a 7 bit address to identify that address, (2^7). HID (Human Interface Devices) are amongst those kind.

Power - Wake on PCI PME - set it to Power On
Turning this on is necessary to be able to "wake" the computer. (mandatory)

I had this on, on this current firmware, and would keep the computer on, when I would shut it off. I had to switch to off to correct this problem.

But the computer is WAKING up for USB. Like I said. If I press the switch on receiver/hub/whatever else it's called, it will bring the computer back to life like Frankenstein would. But then it would shut off.

To sum this up, I'll try a few settings you suggested In order for you to switch to S1 to S3, you have to forward this state to Windows XP as well, or else Windows XP will choose the MinSleep state of the bios of when you first installed Windows XP! There has been no-other way to change it. As long as you're using an ACPI compliant power supply/computer , you have to change it in XP as well. Dumppo.exe will do this for you. Changing it in the bios did not work.


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Response Number 11
Name: Tubesandwires
Date: January 10, 2007 at 11:04:08 Pacific
Reply:

"Microsoft Wireless Multimedia Keyboard W/ Mouse & Hub" is not anywhere near the proper description.

I chopped off the last part of your link to the picture of the receiver and went here:
http://www.tweaknews.net/reviews/mi...
to find a review and the proper name of your Microsoft product:
MICROSOFT WIRELESS OPTICAL DESKTOP

On page 2 of that review,
http://www.tweaknews.net/reviews/mi...
the reviewer calls the same thing as in your picture a wireless hub/receiver, and says you can plug in a USB connector or a PS/2 connector for the mouse, but only a PS/2 connector for the keyboard.
Just because the reviewer calls it a hub doesn't mean that is what Microsoft calls it - I think that's not a proper term in this case.

On page 4 of that review
http://www.tweaknews.net/reviews/mi...
he says Microsoft wants you to install the software first, then plug in the receiver.

Did you do that? As in, did you connect a different keyboard, install the software for the MICROSOFT WIRELESS OPTICAL DESKTOP set, then plug in the receiver?
If you didn't, I suggest you Uninstall the devices for it in Device Manager, and Uninstall the software in Add and Remove Software, and install it the proper way.

There is no documentation for this product, other than a spec sheet, on the Microsoft web site.
I have no idea what you call the reset button on the receiver does - I suspect it resets the wireless connection if it is faulty.
To say pressing the reset button briefly starting up the computer proves the wake on stuff is working is a leap of logic - it doesn't necessarily prove anything.

Things you could try.
If you still have a conventionally connected keyboard and mouse,
- try installing the wireless set the proper way - software first, Once you have done that, try Power - Wake on PCI PME - set it to Power On.
- remove the receiver, connect the other keyboard and mouse,
Power - Wake on PCI PME - set it to Power On.
Try the computer to see if it's restart, and Wake on features work properly.
You may need to uninstall the MICROSOFT WIRELESS OPTICAL DESKTOP set devices and software as well.
- try the MICROSOFT WIRELESS OPTICAL DESKTOP set with the USB disconnected, both PS/2 connectors connected instead, Power - Wake on PCI PME - set it to Power On.


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Response Number 12
Name: vglover
Date: January 14, 2007 at 06:59:36 Pacific
Reply:

"the reviewer calls the same thing as in your picture a wireless hub/receiver, and says you can plug in a USB connector or a PS/2 connector for the mouse, but only a PS/2 connector for the keyboard.
Just because the reviewer calls it a hub doesn't mean that is what Microsoft calls it - I think that's not a proper term in this case."

Hmmm, I don't think you understand how this works. It's a hub because it connects BOTH Keyboard and Mouse together. I'll say it again. It connects both keyboard and mouse. There is only 1 USB Plug for keyboard and mouse or PS/2.

On page 4 of that review
http://www.tweaknews.net/reviews/mi...
he says Microsoft wants you to install the software first, then plug in the receiver.

Sleep/Calculator/Log Off and the rest of the 100 or so keys are covered by the basic Optical Desktop Driver. It's the custom commands that are propriortary. Eg, changing volume, custom shortcuts etc which need the full driver.

"To say pressing the reset button briefly starting up the computer proves the wake on stuff is working is a leap of logic - it doesn't necessarily prove anything."

Actually, if you think about it, it does prove one thing. The computer is able to wakeup. I'm lucky, some computers can't wakeup at all. So this means wakeup is working, but it's also faulty as well. When I press the rest button on the hub, it actually resets the channel, and cycles through the caps, scroll lock, and F key lock as well. This will send a signal to the USB Host Controller and if USB is set to wakeup from sleep, then this should indeed wake it up.

That's a start, but why the keyboard and mouse won't is another mystery. Any command I type is directed to the hub then to the controller where the 7 bit address is looked up. However, the keyboard and mouse have there own address because they're a separate HID devices. This keyboard is "It's own device". It is defined in Device Manager. You can check "Allow this device to bring the computer out of standby".

It is unclear why the hub for the keyboard/mouse can wake the computer up. Possibly, any command to the USB controller will wake the computer up. That means, if you unplug your printer, and re-plug it in on stand-by, it should wake-up again if it's USB of course. This logic would also imply that even if you have "Allow this device to bring the computer out of standby" uncheck, then, pressing a key on yoru keyboard should wake it up still because it's the USB controller waking up the computer, not the keyboard itself. This sounds weird, but the logic proves this to be correct.

If I put my printer on, while my PC is in sleep mode, it will wake-it up again, but of course, go back into a permanent sleep mode right after.

I'm going to try a 370watt p/s spare I have. I will reply back when I have tried another power supply.


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