I like the fact that no matter what peoples opinions are,that posts like RM's are acctually posted to benefit others,Regardless of the method we choose to acomplish that.Thanks to all who have helped me broaden my knowledge of computing and keep up the extrodinary effort.

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Am I suggesting "how people should live their life?" There's no theology or philosophy here, just ideas on how we can best ask for help -- and how we can best serve those who do ask for it. Not all of us have time to read every post.

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RenMan,I completely and whole-heartedly agree w/newgrl! If you don't want to read it,don't click on it.Your help IS appreciated,as you have helped me b4.But the constant policing of subject lines is getting rather redundant,and I firmly believe that this only fuels the fire,yeilding the opposite results you are trying so hard to achieve. Let's get back to the tasks at hand.Mainly,finicky PC's!

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newgrl, I love you a lot, too! And you contribute even more to this board. Since you take people as they are, warts and all, you’re probably a better person than I am. Mea culpa. But once in a while I like to make a pitch for consideration, courtesy, and kindness, both given and received. I don’t have a messiah complex, and I’m not looking for thanks. I do think some others would feel more encouraged to give help (more often) if they at least knew if their advice was helpful. No bullying was intended, and I’m sorry if anyone took it that way.

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"Am I suggesting "how people should live their life?"" Yes. In a way you are. There are all kinds of people out there. You are suggesting that everyone act like you. Kind, courteous, nice guy. Not everyone is like this. *shrug* If you don't like the way someone has asked their question, don't answer. "Not all of us have time to read every post." So... don't read the posts you don't like the titles on. *shrug* Look at it this way... Say someone is having a problem with their computer and quickly posts a question on the board... because that is how they are... you know... their personality is like "Quick. Quick. I want answers quick." They monitor their question for any answers and answer any questions thrown out to them. No biggie. They get their answer and fix their computer. In another scenerio... the same person asks a question and you answer with this link. They think it is an answer to their question so they go to this link. They are offended (as people who like quick answers are often also offended quickly) and never go back to their question. They just figured this was a crappy board with overzelous moderators. That's not the response you are looking for... but it will happen. I have often not answered questions after you have posted a link to the other "Resource post" like this one because I did not want to get in a flame war over "how to post a question". That would be silly. So the guy who asks the question never gets any real answers. Again... please do not link to this post in other people's questions.

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Again, agree with newgrl 100%. None of us can change another person. The only thing we have the power to change is ourselves and our own attitudes. The thing that makes us most unhappy in life often is the fact that other people don't live up to our expectations. When we stop trying to change other people and start trying to be the best person that we can be, then we are free of a lot of anxiety and unhappiness. That is my basic philosophy of life, and this forum is just another slice of life. So my idea is to stop trying to change other peoples' behavior or way of posting in this forum, accept them for what they are, and contribute to the forum without expectations from those you attempt to help. Otherwise, it is like giving a gift, but with strings attached. Ren Man, it sounds like you are a perfectionist, and expect everyone else to be perfect also. You certainly have the right to be who you are, but I think you will be a happier person in all aspects of life if you stop expecting others to be perfect. No offense intended, you certainly do contribute a lot of great knowledge and experience to this forum.

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After being around this forum for a couple of years now it seems the same things get rehashed every few months. It's comical. mike

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Agree with Newgrl, when i have a WinME question that have nothing to do with hardware meaning it could be on a laptop or a notebook and wont make a single difference, and I get that link for an anwser that tell me that i must put all the PC spec to get response I do find it quite annoying considerring that it wont make a diff with the problem. And yes, NOT everybody is english first language and it is hard to find the exact word to describe whats wrong (I'm ESL) I often posted problem question that I thought was clear enought so are the one that actually responded to that problem and got your posting instruction link, making me think that somebody has a little bit more than computing problem ...

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newgrl, you said: “I have often not answered questions after you have posted a link to the other ‘Resource post’ like this one because I did not want to get in a flame war over ‘how to post a question.’ That would be silly. So the guy who asks the question never gets any real answers.” Maybe you don’t like this post, but I do have some standards: I would NEVER not answer somebody’s post (assuming I could help) just because I didn’t like someone else’s answer! I just wouldn’t acknowledge a response I didn’t like. Why should a response you don’t like cause you to get into a flaming exchange? Why should anyone punish someone looking for help? That serves no legitimate purpose.

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MY MY MY just got home from work, most entertaining. just to throw in my 2 cents. it appears there is a tempest in the teapot. there is no correct way to ask a question, unless it is a threatening one. questions are the foundation of knowledge, an important step in realizing your potential, and most importantly a step forward. this all looks like some serious RM bashing, but with love of course. RM raises some very legitimate points and would have been better served to follow the advice offered in the* BE NICE* section of his own post. that being said, i find them to be admirable goals i myself try to adhere to. perhaps a less strident attitude would be advisable and instead offer help to the posters for posting, whose only reason for visiting this forum is for* help* not a lesson on forum etiquette. geez i think i was just piling on. RM keep up the good work, don't lose the attitude, and don't take all this too seriously. i read all your posts and replies and you have provided me with help without ever knowing it. shep

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Thanks, sxshep! ========================================= If this thread serves no other useful purpose than to keep all this out of other posts, it was worth it. I have to admit that I was unprepared for so much hostility. If part of the purpose I serve on this forum is to be a lightning rod (ouch!) so be it. (But that's NOT my intention!) If my response to posters whose subject is “WinME problem” or “Help me please!!!” is to post the link to my prior post (on “Subject”) “is getting rather redundant,” so is the “Use Cachman” to every memory problem, and so is “Use fdisk and do a clean install” for far too many problems before easier and less drastic solutions are even tried. Or the “do a Google Search.” But I usually I don’t whine and snivel and mewl about it. I do not believe “one size fits all.” (If there was a “universal” solvent, what would you keep it in?) But there are a FEW universal questions and somewhat FEWER universal answers to those same questions. There are lots of posts that ask the same questions about anti-virus, firewalls, ScanDisk, Defrag, low resources, IE, fonts, deleting unnecessary files, etc. My “RESOURCE -Prior Posts on...” are to bring a lot of resources to bear on a problem. OK, so there’s a lot of junk in some of those posts, but there are some absolute gems as well. That should not discourage ANYONE from bringing their wisdom and experience to bear on the problem at hand and posting a new and possibly better response. I think one other point needs to be made. If someone comes here for a one-shot, quick-and-easy-fix, they will continue to have problems for which they will not have solutions. Maybe that’s what we’re here for. But I think to have even a modest handle on any Windows OS takes at least a modicum of interest and time and effort. Should we discourage that? Or should we be like institutions that perpetuate themselves by dribbling out grace and absolution and redemption in ways and amounts sufficient for a temporary fix, but deficient enough to keep people dependent and coming back for more? I realize there are two conflicting principles here: “Teach a person how to fish instead of giving her/him a fish” v “If you’re bleeding, it makes more sense to go to a hospital than to enroll in medical school.” But such dilemmas are the stuff of life, and are what make life interesting. I take offense at anyone trying to compare me to “Crack Pipe.” Yikes!!! After seeing the post above, I did a search and came up with the quintessential Crack Pipe post. Anyone interested can go here: http://computing.net/windowsme/wwwboard/forum/1965.html I’ll continue to monitor this thread, but I think everything I have to say has already been said. For those who have given advice, both positive and negative, thank you. And no thanks to the flamers and crybabies. --Renaissance Man

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hello to you all i,m new here and i am learning lots from you peaple and your posts.i like new girls postings an renasences and the rest.ive learned to do many things in easyer ways than i had been.but some i the things i new befor comeing here work well.i orgienaly came to here for dos help.as m.e was and still works fine.im a clutz with computers. i learn to run them by working like hell to fix my screw ups lol.im veary interested in the delenex bat ive got the valantines day one copyed and pasted to folder on desk top. im too scared to try it.but ill learn more frm you all and maby be more comfident.i find you all are very frendly and polite. i too try to help in here if you see ive posted some thing thats roung please let me know what it is .so i can get it right anther time.i had one person rub my nose in my spelling and gramer.its bad at times cant help it poor health and medication will do that.i can see an answer to a problem just cant put it into words .but that same person needed help and i gave him the advice he needed.and got thanked for it.not sure what the morel to that is but i felt better. ive rambled long enogh. keep your chins up! and have a nice day :)

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of, course newgrl and rm are both right. whatever we do we are trying to influence others in one way or another i.e. asking them to be more tolerant(newgrl), or more specific and nice(rm). i tend to lean towards agreeing with newgrl's comments as a general rule, but it doesn't hurt to be 'gently' reminded of what could be of benefit to a question asked and an answer given...'after' giving that answer.

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Newgrl , I love you . You are the "best"!!

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Even after reading all the responses i can honestly say that i personally see nothing wrong with the posting suggestions listed above. I dont for a minute think Renaissance Man's intentions were to punish. Personally (me) if someone posted the link to this thread the first time i showed up here i would have welcomed it. My many questions about the do's and dont's would be answered. Its like showing up to work the first day and a coworker advising you not to use crazy jims coffee mug again. I also realize that other peoples minds work differently than my own. Some i personally see it as a simple heads up others might take it as an offensive command. Just about every argument has been made in the replies above... These are my 2 cents :) 1.English not being the primary language. Ive seen some posts here that make absolutely no sense whatsoever. Then one day it hit me...The online translator the individual is using to convert whatever language into english isnt doing its job correctly. Luckily we have many talented bilingual techs to help out. 2.Not knowing what question to ask. Ive seen posts where the individual is having problems but doesnt have a clue what the problem could be. Initially someone begins offering advice for what they think might be the problem then later down the line you begin to realize its soemthing else. I usually skim the main page first. I rightclick/open in new window all the posts i think i may be able to offer advice or an opinion in. I go thru these one by one and return to the main page. Then i start opening the help me or pleassse help posts out of curiosity. Then i look for threads with a large number of replies so i can see what ive been missing. Then i go thru the posts with zero replies. Finally i check out My computing.net for posts ive saved that interested me. Computing.net has become a fun hobby for me. It also saved me on a number of occasions at the office. I have a favorites folder named computing.net. In it i keep the hundreds of links to tips and tricks and software or whatever. My experience at another forum: I asked about information on a particular subject. In my post i stated that i was requesting the information so i could impress my friends. I meant it as a light hearted joke. The next day i went to check for replies i find that 10+ flamers were shocked, disapointed, disgusted (you name it) that i would dare ask them for information so i can impress my friends. Several "im above you" responses teling me i was wasting my time and i should be ashamed for trying to impress my friends etc. And a warning/ethical lesson/opinion along with a thread lock placed by the moderator. Ive never been back.

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p.s. thoroughness is nice, but there is something to be said for brevity, too. i've seen questions and answers that are almost book-like in volume. i never had a problem on 9x, me, or xp that required more than a few brief paragraphs post for explanation or resolution. the ones that are entertaining or especially insightful are the exception. :)

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Righty, I really don't care about all this 'telling us how to lead our lives'. I think the only main thing is that If you want more and better replies to your question, then it helps to type a decent subject. I'm not going to look at every post just coz i've got nothing better to do. Granted you may not want my help, but I just may be able to give someone some handy advice. I'm not going to do this if I don't know someone needs it. And anyway, all the time you lot have spent on this topic...!!! How much more effort does it require to write 'Laptop Blue Screen' rather than 'Ahhhh Help Me?!! Think about it, stop winging and get back to what's meant to be going on here... helping people coz we are all nice people

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btw, imho for newbies we might need to explain lol that btw = by the way imo = in my opinion imho = in my humble, honest, heartfelt, holehearted (!) etc. opinion lol = lots of love and without this forum we might all be uscwap! uscwap = up **** creek without a paddle

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This post has certainly taken a fascinating twist and RM is copping a lot of unnecsesary flak for what in my opinion is a perfectly reasonable request. If you care to read the XP forum you will find that the same thing is occuring there and there is a post there which deals with this very problem. The general contention is that posters are bone idel and can't be bothered doing a simple search for themselves. Using the search engine on the left of the page is of no use because people use ridiculous headers and it is no wonder that those that do bother to use it can never find what they are looking for. I have given up (in the main) from replying in this post for the very reasons that RM mentions and quite candidly XP is going the same way. There is a discipline in forums and if you care to visit other forums you will find much the same tom-foolery in the posts but the forums are better organised with more useful and informative sections and moderators who have no hesitation in moving a badly placed post or one that 'flames' or is just in poor taste. I'm with you all the way on this one RM!

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At last - restructuring. First is to eliminate notion of factions or sides on this thread - a non issue - for all want to help people with computer problems. The same objectives. It's just the path that varies. There's never any harm in wanting to improve. Second - discussion is rather wasted because all who have posted here are already forum disciplined and understand the social rules of written behaviour extremely well. Third - you need to guide those inadequate or ignorant on basic forum behaviour (not being snobbish) to achieve this in a practical way without the system been too rigid -which often brings the reverse. This remark excludes those with varying English skills for many reasons. Contrary to popular belief, mortals generally do not act logically under any stress. Bear in mind, if they're "ignorant" here, they're likely to be the same elsewhere. Fourth - if above cannot be achieved, then status quo remains. Hence you either enforce or you don't. IMO, the former is not practical from anyone's viewpoint. At best you can try to influence or guide. A real toughie, if I might say so.

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Aramis... I wish I'd said that as succintly as you have because when all is said and done that is exactly what this is about.

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I’ve kind of enjoyed this debate, although I was rather taken aback by some of the vehemence. There are some responders who have helped me greatly, for which they have my gratitude. I sat out some of this discussion so I could ponder and digest it. I am stunned that some who think I'm telling others how to live their lives have no problem with telling me how to live mine. I’m also bowled over by the fact that some people withhold their help because they don’t like the responses of others. I’ve come to the conclusion that there’s somewhat of a pis*ing contest going on here. I really don’t feel like there should be any feeling of competition, but hey, welcome to the real world. I do not care if someone posts before I do, or posts something I disagree with, before or after I post. On some threads, some people who’ve responded in an overwhelming negative way to my comments have had their responses removed. In only ONE instance have I asked that a response (attacking me) be removed because it was an ad hominem argument that was not helpful to the poster or to anyone else. And it was removed. But usually I can stand the heat, and find the exchange helpful; usually hostile respondants sow the seeds of their own destruction, so I like most comments to stay. They’ll stand or fall on their own merits. In a recent exchange, someone had a problem with her computer and she was blamed for buying the wrong brand of computer AND for “stuffing up her pc”. I was sympathetic, and said those responses were hurtful and unhelpful, for which I was taken to task, for "rubbishing" the respondents. (BTW, I also posted some resources I thought would be helpful.) I’m not suggesting that we end this thread by holding hands and singing “Kum Ba Yah” but rather, in the words of Rodney King, “Can’t we all just get along?” I am grateful for all who have contributed to this lively debate, and I hope this thread has provided more light than heat, so we all can post both better question and better answers. I appreciate all the positive comments and the constructive negative ones as well, with special thanks to Ewen and Aramis for their thoughtful, considerate, and rather profound commentary. Pax, Renaissance Man

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RM... I have a signature on all my emails that reads: "War is what happens when language fails!" My regards...

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"...and, where fear succeeds." -me

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Virtue repulsae nesca, RM Coeur-de-Lion! (Courage knows no defeat, RM the Lionheart!)

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Since I hope we're nearing the end of this debate, I will just add that your posts are some of the best on the group, RM, and the time you obviously take to compile them for the benefit of others is very considerable. It is this selflessness that help forums are all about and I greatly appreciate your expertise here.

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My quick two cents. As the web is World wide we will often receive posts that are difficult to understand, or may appear rude on the surface but based upon the persons cultural background are normal for them. As responders some time it is best to sign out and get off the computer. I have had a few occasions where after awhile the brain goes to another zone, and I want to respond with less than positive intentions, so time to quit and either surf or turn the cpu off. I think the vast majority of responders here do a great favor to many who are learning, but they also get to learn from others as well as teach so it is and equal sharing of information. RM nothing wrong with trying to inform people to give more information to receive more information, I did not see anywhere within the framework of your message that you were trying to change life styles. Must be the interpretation factor.

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