Thanks for the help; I am going to try the suggestions this week and see how it goes. The SBIDE.SYS error is odd since I never had a sound blaster cdrom. I did use a Windows95 floppy to do the reformat though. My hd has 2 partitions on it and I have data on it that I need. If I connect the hd as a slave to my other computer, and if it turns out the hd is the problem, will this cause my back up computer to crash as well even though the hd is a slave and does not actually load anything?

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Yabut Sure thing, no harm doing format /u but this is the command description: Format /u Specifies an unconditional format of a disk. Unconditional formatting destroys all exsisting data on a disk and prevents you from later "unformatting" the disk. You should use /u if you have received read and write errors during use of a disk. In no way is Windows going to try to produce drivers from faint footprints that are left behind. They are, quite properly, regarded as deleted. This bit "Ram saves part of the bios commands" I have never heard of in my life. Have you some reference to support this idea please? Derek.W

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*L* Heck yes.. first the command I have always used is format c:/u I dont know if yours works.. Second in regard to ram holding stuff.. COURSE it does *G* think back to old 386 days when you should never kill your power supply cause if you did youd lose your settings in bios set up. Eventually what they did is put a battery back up on the computer. Anyway all computers now have the ram battery backed by the motherboard. You can look that up anywhere. I trouble-shot allot of computers a few years ago that were having the same problems and I found that...a regular format DOES leave things behind on the drive and that doing a regular flash on the bios chip also leaves certain things behind. (Everybody thinks when you flash a bios , thats it.. everything new.. but thats not true at all. You have to know specific commands in the bios flash program to actually WIPE the bios and start clean. One example is of course the DMI. Anyway... Partial stuff is loaded into the RAM from the bios and it stays there. Unless you completely wipe the bios like I said. But one way to get around this is to load windows and then shut down and pull the RAM for about a minute, and then start windows again. The settings apparently only load with the set up of windows, and if y ou do this you will find a TON of stuff in WINDOCTOR. I did windoctor before and after to find the results I needed. The left behind incomplete paths were very interesting to say the least and windows ran fine after getting rid of them. I also found..( very mysterious here *g* ) and if anyone KNOWS why.. I d love to know.. during that time I was triple checking everything and one thing I found was that my start up disc 's EBD cab was one size BEFORE I used it, and then after I booted with it, it was a little bigger.(when I got to the A prompt) Shut down.. look at the disc.. it was the same size as in the beginning. I figured.. something ( bios? ) loaded up a few extra commands to the EBD cab during boot. Cause it plainly showed that it was about 5 kb bigger ( cant remember the exact diff) Lots of people say you should maintain a CLEAN original start up disk. For lots of reasons. Its all interesting study though. *s* A computer is a perfectionist's nightmare.

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Of-course Format /u wouldn't work "as a command". That was just my paragraph heading - geez. The idea that MS would use traces left on the HD (marked as deleted) to reform drivers sounds bizzare. The very reason you might be reformatting is because of file corruption, including that of drivers. The true reason for /u is given in the definition and I see no reason or evidence to make additional assumptions. RAM is volatile memory, a BIOS chip is not. The latter is "intended" to keep its data which depends on a Flash. Your RAM is cleared when you power off. In fact just restarting Windows clears the RAM, that's why folks reboot if their system slows down due to "memory leaks". I would be surprised if you have never run into that one. I too have fixed many computers so I don't think that alone justifies much. As I said, just find me an authoritative reference to MS producing drivers from deleted traces, and BIOS info being retained in RAM after power down. If you manage to do so then I might be prepared to think again. Otherwise I will stick with my original view, which I believe makes sense. Derek.W

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"think back to old 386 days when you should never kill your power supply cause if you did youd lose your settings in bios set up." Load of crap. I don't know if "yeah, but" is trying to blind us with brilliance or baffle us with bullshït, but the effect is about the same I'm not insensitive, I just don't care.

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Just to clarify further, the battery is there to preserve BIOS "settings" which are in a volatile area of the chip. Removing the battery is a well documented method for clearing "BIOS". It has nothing whatever to do with preserving anything in RAM. Derek.W

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ok...well.. crossed thoughts , I think. I meant that a regular format command doesnt totally clear the hard drive, not that the format U leaves anything behind.(ive heard that from many tecks) As for the other stuff Ill see if I can find the time to dig some details and links up for you but that was years ago now. some processes are obviously ( and been proven ) as hidden. I found some of those old references while researching how someone can send a remote command to a bios. Obviously this can be done, since it is done in windows/with software now. Knowing that someone can access those commands directly, is what I was researching. Proving that someone can add a command to your bios if they have an effective connection to your computer (trogan etc.) , is what I found. And what it did was to tell windoze to add certain commands at windose setup so that it would load certain programs and run them hidden every time you reformat and load windose. I confirmed what I found with a head master at a local computer school, and a security specialist in Toronto. But,security has changed alot in 5 years. I like debating stuff and I like learning but what few things about security I have put up on this message board has been practically attacked by people who have a know-it-all attitude. So I wonder.. * roe* Another interesting fact I got directly from zone alarm was that ( and I do quote) "Firewalls are not allowed to police some connections". Id love to have that explained further but they wouldnt budge. ANyway I ll see if I can dig up something but for instance.. if flashing the bios clears ALL of the bios,,,, why is there a specific command to clear the DMI and it is NOT automatically overwritten by regular flashing? A computer is a perfectionist's nightmare.

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You oughta publish all of your quaint little 'beliefs' under the title "Confessions of a Crap Artist" (fiction, of course) If you keep spinning these unsubstantiated, meandering (and poorly spelled) yarns, sure, you're going meet plenty of opposition, as that kind of BS doesn't fly here I'm not insensitive, I just don't care.

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I was generalising - my post was already long enough. The BIOS has a non-volatile area which is what you flash (upgrades and the like). This is not affected by loss of power. There is also a volatile area that retains user settings, passwords and so on. This is the part that has to be held up by the battery. RAM is not in the equation after power down, which is what raised this issue. Derek.W

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Hi, To explain myself and in effort to prove what I said before I have dug up these links and quotes for you. Keep in mind that any access to your PC wether thru a trogan or a legal software program, many can and do access DOS commands, and DOS connections can access anything and execute anything. I dont have to prove this, its well known because everyone did everything on DOS before windose came along and you can still do everything IF you know how to use DOS to its full potential. ISPS send info to your PC telling it what speed it is allowed to use on the net, verify you are a customer etc. These connections are one perfect example of a connection that is not policed by firewalls. A modem or BIOS can be updated on line. ANy connection can be configured to be hidden from a firewall (if your good). I have tried to condense this as best I can. IN regard to format not cleaning all sectors of the hard drive, this is an excellant tidbit for example. http://www.resellerratings.com/forum/t112085.html "the boot sector is followed by 62 reserved sectors. You can even FORMAT the drive and the reserved sectors aren't touched." As for any other proof.. Im tired.. There are tons of refs on line about people having freezing problems that were eventually fixed by a format U. If there was nothing there, why would it fix it? On to part two.. A computer is a perfectionist's nightmare.

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http://www.computorcompanion.com/LPMArticle.asp?ID=76 This explains why the battery saves system settings ( and in older PCs it saved Hard drive config) so if you had an OLD pc you would have to manually set settings with dip switches to recognise the new hard drive, OR if your battery went dead you would find that you had to set up the hard drive specs/ ie cylinders etc in bios set up, since there was a big problem with the old style batteries only lasting 2 or 3 years, the problem existed that " If you unplug your computer you will lose your hard drive settings." (there is a specific command for clearing DMI and if you have ever flashed a bios you will notice it NEVER replaces that area) This command can be seen by running the flash.exe and bringing up the help menu. /cd Clear DMI data Google up "Microsoft Systems Management Server" program/can be activated on ANY PC running any windose. http://computer.howstuffworks.com/bios1.htm explains ram in bios chip ( why I clear DMI) and RAM shadowing http://www.nwc.com/netdesign/desk7.html Explains remotable interface (DMI 2.0) is designed to provide remote access to DMI functionality and data http://www.dmtf.org/newsroom/presskit/DMTF_backgrounder.pdf explains DMI, CIM and SYMBIOS. BIOS interface allows its retrieval by management applications that use DMI, CIM or direct access http://www.cpilive.net/news_ver2/inside.asp?wherefrom=search&newsitem=1216200453142AMRESELLER+WORLD+ME.htm&channel=RESELLER+WORLD+ME more about MS and DELL SMS and DMI and its functions. A computer is a perfectionist's nightmare.

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"Trogan"? Y'know, it's funny - the more ignorant a person is, the more frantic they are to prove otherwise. Similar fiction in the same (ludicrous) vein here I'm not insensitive, I just don't care.

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Post 16 & 17 are a mixture of well known facts (reasonable) and myths (unreasonable). The trick is to distinguish between what is true and what is false, applying logical interpretation where necessary. The following remain true: MS do not use previously deleted driver traces to reform new drivers during install. There is no harm using Format's /u switch if you so wish but the reasons for its existence are as given in Microsofts own description. BIOS information is not retained in RAM after power down, but you are welcome to remove and re-instate the RAM if you so wish. This process might help clean oxide off the edge connectors (sometimes benficial) but nothing else. Note, in general, that just because you happen to do something and later on you get a specific result, it is not "necessarily" because of what you did at all. There can be many other factors and possible reasons. It is far too easy to jump to conclusions. Derek.W

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Oh yes... This bit "There are tons of refs on line about people having freezing problems that were eventually fixed by a format U. If there was nothing there, why would it fix it?" You are implying that I have questioned the fact that normal format leaves trace data on the HD. I have never disputed this in any of my posts. Similarly I have not questioned the fact that this switch can cure specific problems. Read the MS description I gave about /u command, "they actually say this". It is the only your "assumption" that drivers are restored using these traces that is in dispute. You are now appear to be attempting to argue against things that "I have never said" to sidetrack the specific issues that I raised. Either that or you are failing to understand anything that I am saying. Whichever one it is, proves that this discussion is/was a complete waste of time so there is no point continuing it further. Derek.W

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Pete20033 Apologies for this discussion (I wasn't expecting it to result in quite so much verbiage). This bit (your post #7). "If I connect the hd as a slave to my other computer, and if it turns out the hd is the problem, will this cause my back up computer to crash as well even though the hd is a slave and does not actually load anything?" Well, I can't promise it won't crash it but all you would then need to do is remove from the back up computer and it should be fine again. Please pop back and let us know how you are getting on, or raise a new post if the situation has now changed. Derek.W

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I'm nowhere near as charitable or even tempered as Derek, but I agree completely. Facts blended with fiction are not a good mix in a computer help forum. It's hardly worth the effort (for me, anyhow) to point-by-point debunk what's been presented, other than to say that the referenced pages don't mean quite what the poster thinks they do. Doubtful if he'll ever be convinced otherwise though. For example - - yes, the CMOS chip is maintained by a battery, pretty much standard from 386's onward, but also present in many 286 models and earlier as the RTC (Real Time Clock) chip or add-in card. Other than maintaining the time and the hardware settings, it does little else. "Trogan" says it all for me (really) A mind is a terrible thing to waste. I'm not insensitive, I just don't care.

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* smh* Well in closing, I have talked and brain bashed ( in person) with numerous well certified technicians as well as a noted Professor and a security specialist who makes $300 an hour. They have all concurred on everything that I know and have told you. So apparently you (Jboy) are smarter than all of them put together. As for the battery thing, its a tidbit, and I dont understand why you all flip out so much. I can only assume you have nothing better to do. Ill leave it at that. A computer is a perfectionist's nightmare.

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I'm not commenting on their credentials - yours, however, are pretty obviously a product of your imagination. Believe whatever nonsense you like - just don't spread it around here as gospel I'm not insensitive, I just don't care.

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