Hi all-

I've been given an old 386 PC & I have the 3.11 disks from a church sale.

I'd like to try my hand at loading these but have zero idea how to start.

Please, please don't send me to read at Google? I've done a lot of that (plenty of dead links/ends) but hoped for a 1st-hand "step-by-step" by a knowledgable person here.

I assume I must partition & format as FAT16- can this be done with a 98 boot disk?

Then I read I must first load DOS 6.22 & then 3.1 on top of that.

There's an existing system & I wondered if it's possible to copy off the drivers from that before wiping it?

I appreciate any help with this- just hope to not screw it up too much-

T

http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;EN-US;255867

http://www.windowsreinstall.com/indexmsdos.htm

http://www.windowsreinstall.com/indexwin31.htm

You will learn more by the trial and error DIY method, which is also more satisfying.

Also if you have Windows for Workgroups 3.11 version it has better networking/internet support than the non WfW version.

Prewsuming it is WfW version and you wish to go on the internet you will need the TCP/IP update:

http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;99891

...and the latest web browser available:

http://os2.tucows.com/preview/4842.html
or
http://os2.tucows.com/preview/4843.html

Thanks for those links- exactly what I was looking for.

I'm no stranger to DIY-ing- I'm a long time PC user/builder/tutor starting w/98SE- I just had burned out a bit doing a myiad of projects lately for others- where I had to learn-it-all on my own! <I know, "waaahhh"- grin>

When I had the chance to try this one out- I was very interested- but just sooo tired of looking & reading & looking some more... :^P

OK- those links are good to get me going- what about saving the current drivers? I usually use Windriversbackup freeware but it doesn't run on 3.1 (that's what's on there now- I have 3.11).

The folder structure is somewhat odd to me- I looked around but am not too sure which folder(s) I should copy off?

T

"There's an existing system & I wondered if it's possible to copy off the drivers from that before wiping it?"

What existing system - the same that you intend to (re)install?

If DOS622 is already there, you can just leave it be - partition & format are not necessarily required.

Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.

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Yes, there is DOS & 3.1 from a long-ago install of someone else's. I want to get a feel for the install of DOS 6.22 & then of 3.11- so I was going to start completely over. Do an Fdisk/format & then start DOS. I assumed I would need a Win98 boot disk but after reading the links given above, it appears that DOS 6.22 will do the partitioning & formatting for me? Please do correct me if I am wrong on that?

Whenever I do a reinstall of 95/98- I use Windriverbackup freeware to copy off all of the non-Windows drivers so I can burn them to CD- saves loads of time later on.

Are all of the drivers for this system in the system folder? I see some tagged as .dvr- want to know if I can just save the contents of that folder & be on my way with it?

Thanks for your help,

Tracy

There's no real point to (re)partition the drive - if you want to erase the whole deal(?) format would be sufficient. You currently have a working installation of DOS, (possibly already setup with whatever DOS drivers) - personally, I'd leave it alone.

"it appears that DOS 6.22 will do the partitioning & formatting for me?"

Best to use the installation diskette OR a DOS622 bootdisk
As far as that goes, removing the Windows directory with deltree would be enough for a clean installation of Win31

"Are all of the drivers for this system in the system folder?"

It's not usually that simple - much like 9x, Win31 drivers need to be installed. Windows installation will detect the basics, but for high resolution graphics etc. (if supported) you would need to install the specific driver

You already have a functioning system - you might want to take note of the hardware as identified in Windows first.

The System folder is relatively large, and will contain all manner of files (doubtless quite a few 'orphans')- saving it kind of defeats the purpose of a clean installation

Some system analyzers: DOS Syschk, or Windows SAW

Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.

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OK- you convinced me on the DOS bit- I don't want to have to search the world over for two sets of drivers....I'm not lazy- I've just been doing this a lot lately to help a UK friend who is working on some older systems for some folks. The worst is old modem drivers- gah!

Ok- I need to use deltree to remove the Windows directory/folder- I'll have to Google that. Then I will assume to reboot with the first of the 3.11 disks & I'm on my way? I'm sure I'll hit obstacles- just want to get it off to a decent start.

You can obviously tell that I am all-new to this. DOS & 3.1 were far, far away from my starting point of 98SE- I just feel like I missed some of the foundation of Windows & I like the idea of using the command line a bit to help me to understand the underpinnings.

I'm very interested in Linux, as well- so command line usage (even if the commands are different)- will be a help for me.

RE: video driver- I had it opened at one time - but you know how hard it is, at times, to find a driver- even if you know exactly what you have for hardware?

I also have some older stuff here- cannabalized from toss-off systems- sound cards, video- who knows? may be able to get this as tricked out as it can be (want to try Calmira)- just for the education of it.

T

Oh sure - DOS is the actual Operating System - if it's installed & running fine, I'd leave it. It should have its own mouse driver and sound card settings (if there is one) setup in autoexec.bat & config.sys

While Win31 uses its own mouse driver, it depends on the DOS settings for memory management (himem.sys, emm386.exe) and will want to use its own version of those files - it also adds "c:\windows" to the PATH statement in autoexec.bat.

Most DOS commands will return a brief help screen by adding a question mark:

deltree /?

Deltree is powerful - make sure you only remove the Windows directory:

deltree c:\windows

Basically, you wouldn't even have to reboot to reinstall Win31 that way

"Then I will assume to reboot with the first of the 3.11 disks"

Win31 is not an operating system, and does not boot - DOS does all the 'booting' - removing Win31 from a drive will not stop it from booting to DOS - althugh there may be a few error messages, depending on the configuration.

Having the right video driver isn't essential - Windows will default to VGA, 16 colours - for higher resolutions (if the card supports those) you'd need to install the correct driver, also for whatever soundcard (if present)

Calmira is a Win31 shell with some added functionality - some like it (some don't) - it resembles the now (more) familiar Win9x

Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.

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"Basically, you wouldn't even have to reboot to reinstall Win31 that way"

So, I start up- get to 3.1- close that so I'm back to a prompt- then run setup on the 3.11 floppy?

Thank you again,

Tracy

Hmm - can't stay for long, but let me just say:

Win31 is not an operating system - if it's starting automagically immediately after the DOS boot, then there will be a line in autoexec.bat that loads it (win) - you might want to disable/edit that out for the timebeing, at least

If your goal is to perform a 'fresh' installation of Win31, then yes, you should indeed close Windows prior to deleting the Windows folder.

In Win31, pretty much everything is contained in c:\windows & the subdirectory c:\windows\system - removing those (via deltree) effectively removes Win31, beyond a few errant lines in autoexec.bat & config.sys.

Once Windows has been removed, you can reinstall - reinstallation without removal is more of a repair method and is the opposite of a 'clean' installation.

gotta go

Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.

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The worst is old modem drivers- gah!

Few older systems even needed modem drivers, since most of the modems of the day were hardware (i.e.-jumpered for the COM ports) modems...

Ok- I need to use deltree to remove the Windows directory/folder- I'll have to Google that. Then I will assume to reboot with the first of the 3.11 disks & I'm on my way? I'm sure I'll hit obstacles- just want to get it off to a decent start.

You may want to save everything with a ".drv" extention off to floppy, just in case you have some weird video card which may have drivers that are tough to find. The generic drivers with Windows 3.1 will support most VGA cards to 16 colors (and an updated svga.exe driver from M$ brought that up to 256), but higher-end cards usually required a manufacturer's driver...

You can obviously tell that I am all-new to this. DOS & 3.1 were far, far away from my starting point of 98SE- I just feel like I missed some of the foundation of Windows & I like the idea of using the command line a bit to help me to understand the underpinnings.

I'm very interested in Linux, as well- so command line usage (even if the commands are different)- will be a help for me.

Yep, it's a good way to understand DOS, but be prepared for a few setbacks. Not all commands from DOS are Linux command-line equivalents...

RE: video driver- I had it opened at one time - but you know how hard it is, at times, to find a driver- even if you know exactly what you have for hardware?

I also have some older stuff here- cannabalized from toss-off systems- sound cards, video- who knows? may be able to get this as tricked out as it can be (want to try Calmira)- just for the education of it.

If you're familiar with FTP, then you may have some success locating drivers here:

ftp://ftp.cs.tu-berlin.de/pub/msdos/mirrors/ftp.mpoli.fi/hardware

You'll need to know what kind of hardware is in the system first...

Here are my files:

autoexec.bat:

@ECHO OFF
C:\DOS\SMARTDRV.EXE
PROMPT= $E[36;40m$l$t$h$h$h$h$h$h Hi! $p$g
PATH C:\WINDOWS;C:\DOS;C:\NORTON;C:\WPWIN;C:\MOUSE
SET TEMP=C:\DOS
SET SOUND=C:\SB
MOUSE
rem NDD /QUICK
cd windows
win

Am I correct in thinking that it's the "cd windows- win" that is automagically having it boot to 3.1? What do change to fix this for the install?
----------------------
config.sys

DEVICE=C:\DOS\SETVER.EXE
DEVICE=C:\DOS\HIMEM.SYS
DEVICE=C:\DOS\ANSI.SYS
DOS=HIGH
FILES=50
STACKS=9,256
BUFFERS=25
-----------------------
Yes, the idea is to load a fresh 3.11 & to lose the 3.1.

I'd like to have it load up automagically after, as well- so I will assume to re-add those lines?
---------------------
You said to remove the C: & C:Windows- but wouldn't removing C: automatically remove everything within C:?
-----------------------
I so appreciate you helping- it's incredibly refreshing to find someone who actually knows what they are on about. I've had some very bad experiences before where the advice was missing steps & I ended up hosing everything.

In this case- worst case scenario is learning more than I hoped (lol) on an old, not-daily use PC- so not quite as critical as before...

Appreciatively,

Tracy

"You said to remove the C: & C:Windows- but wouldn't removing C: automatically remove everything within C:?"

It sure would!! I don't believe I suggested that, just:

deltree c:\windows

.. will erase c:\windows and any subdirectories branching from there

Windows is invoked by the very last line in autoexec.bat:

win

'cd\windows' isn't actually required, since c:\windows is "on" the PATH - however, that can be condensed to c:\windows\win

.. all of the rest setup the DOS environment & DOS drivers (and could stand some adjustment)

As part of the Windows installation process, Windows setup will 'offer' to rewrite autoexec.bat & config.sys - basically what it does is to add 'c:\windows' to the PATH statement and ensure that memory management (himem.sys, emm386.exe) is configured - although (iirc) it will want to use its own (older) versions of those files. If you refuse to allow the files to be rewritten setup will save autoexec.win & config.win instead (you can examine those and edit or rename)

Ok - one thing is, for Windows to run smoothly, DOS must be in good order. I do notice that memory management is not optimal - try these:

CONFIG.SYS

DEVICE=C:\DOS\HIMEM.SYS
DEVICE=C:\DOS\EMM386.EXE RAM
DEVICEHIGH=C:\DOS\SETVER.EXE
DEVICEHIGH=C:\DOS\ANSI.SYS
DOS=HIGH,UMB
FILES=40
STACKS=9,256
BUFFERS=15

AUTOEXEC.BAT

@ECHO OFF
C:\DOS\SMARTDRV.EXE
PROMPT= $E[36;40m$l$t$h$h$h$h$h$h Hi! $p$g
PATH=C:\WINDOWS;C:\DOS;C:\NORTON;C:\WPWIN;C:\MOUSE
SET TEMP=C:\TEMP
SET SOUND=C:\SB
LH MOUSE
C:\WINDOWS\WIN

For some reason, M$ sets the default 'temp' directory as C:\DOS (bad idea) - to correct this, the line is changed as above, also you would create the new temp directory:

md c:\temp

... I'm not so sure you need that STACKS setting (and a couple of others) but it may be best to leave alone, just in case

Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.

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Update:

Thanks for those config/autoexec suggestions. After tangling with the existing 3.1 for a day (using Calmira III- which is very cool to see w/8mb RAM)...& having no luck getting the SB card drivers to load, I went for the gusto & wiped C:\Windows- lol.

Just got 3.11 installed & had no trouble with the SB card at all? I located a driver for the VGA & am running 800x600 @ 256 colors (it can do 16M).

I found a couple of system tools- very nice to have the info. Oh- I found this & thought others might find it useful when it comes to DOS commands:

http://home.earthlink.net/~rlively/MANUALS/INDEX.HTM

In your opinion- is it possible to connect to the 'net with this unit as it sits? I imagine I'd have to scrounge a serial telephone modem or such (no PCI here)...

Tracy

An excellent DOS reference is the Help/Qbasic program included with DOS622 - entering 'help' (no quotes) should invoke it.

SoundBlaster/SB compatible is something of a standard - that's good that yours works ok. Achieving high res video depends on the driver, and the amount of video RAM on the card

" a serial telephone modem "

Yes, well - a modem is a serial device. An internal hardware modem acts as a COM port, and external one plugs into a COM port. Chances are an internal 'Winmodem' would not work, as those depend on Win9x hardware emulation - some early ones were designed for Win3x (iirc), but probably not worth bothering with.

Sure, it's more than possible - a bit outside my own experience, but take a look at LightSpeed's Reference page

Glad to hear that things went well.

Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.

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Oops- yes, I did mean an external serial modem. I'm just wondering if 8mb ram will be sufficient to even get connected to an ISP?

No biggie- I'll have to keep my eyes peeled for a toss-out around town or garage sale.

One more question I hope you can clear up for me. I edited the config & autoexec & all was ok. However, now I'm getting an error at startup (during the post screen)- though it then continues to boot up to Win ok:

HIMEM: DOS XMS Driver v.3.10
Extended memory specification (xms) v.3.0
Error: An extended memory manager is already installed.

XMS driver is not installed.

This is the config.sys-

DEVICE=C:\DOS\HIMEM.SYS
DEVICE=C:\DOS\EMM386.EXE RAM
DEVICEHIGH=C:\DOS\SETVER.EXE
DEVICE=C:\DOS\SETVER.EXE
DEVICE=C:\WINDOWS\HIMEM.SYS
DEVICEHIGH=C:\DOS\ANSI.SYS
DOS=HIGH, UMB
FILES=50
STACKS=9,256
BUFFERS=25
LASTDRIVE=Z
DEVICE=C:\WINDOWS\IFSHLP.SYS

What have I done wrong here? I assume something is conflicting??

Tracy

I don't think memory would be a problem, but much depends on the browser requirements. WfW works best with more than 4Mb and can usually emulate RAM if necessary (virtual memory)

That is an interesting error - it may be that the installed DOS version is not M$-DOS but maybe DR DOS which combines the function of HIMEM.SYS with EMM386.EXE - - you should be able to check by entering

ver

to return version information.

You might also try disabling the himem.sys line:

rem DEVICE=C:\DOS\HIMEM.SYS

.. and see if that helps

Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.

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.. should have clarified - you'd try disabling the line if the DOS version turns out not to be M$-DOS (which might well explain why emm386 wasn't loaded in the original config.sys)

Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.

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Aw fudge - ok, I'm screwing it all up (some distractions here) - just see what 'ver' returns

Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.

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if you wanted to you could jsut install 3.11 or 3.1 but that would be an a upgrade so all stuff on the syetem before will still be there

??

Yes, well (if you are following along at home) Windows 3.1 was removed and WfW was installed, as per #14

Nice try though

The current stumbling block pertains to DOS memory management

Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.

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DEVICE=C:\DOS\HIMEM.SYS
DEVICE=C:\DOS\EMM386.EXE RAM
DEVICEHIGH=C:\DOS\SETVER.EXE
DEVICE=C:\DOS\SETVER.EXE
DEVICE=C:\WINDOWS\HIMEM.SYS

I spotted your problem instantly. You have HIMEM.SYS loaded in your CONFIG.SYS file twice. Clear out the extra line, and you should be fine.

.. and the gold star goes to Wonton

Windows by default tries to use it's own (older) version of himem.sys.

At any rate, best to delete the line loading from c:\windows - - himem.sys needs to be loaded before emm386.exe can load.

For that matter, setver is also entered twice (likely not needed at all, but once will do)

Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.

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Ok- ver is 6.22 MSDOS.

I removed the C:WIN/HIMEMSYS & the DEVICE=C:\DOS\SETVER.EXE

All seems ok now. Thank you.

Now, I hope you'll bear with me a bit longer?

I'd like to install a soundcard that I have here. Tossed off to me by an old uncle. It has two main chips:

OPTI-Media Chips-82C928

and Crystal CS4248-KL

It is ISA w/3, 34 pin connectors labeled , Panasonic, Sony, Mitsumi. As luck would have it, I have a 34 pin Sony 2X cd-rom (had to have come from this same uncle- I don't think he ever goes to the dump- just comes straight here- lol).

I have to assume I need the card installed before the CD works- but I swear I can find no drivers after searching for two days now. FCC ID doesn't show anything except a long out of business company.

Any thoughts?- I've been through 3 driver sites & have tried some w/o success...

If you've ever actually loaded a card such as this- I'd be very interested in the chain of events...

Tracy
This has been such a great learning experience so far- thanks again to all (especially jboy!).

"FCC ID doesn't show anything except a long out of business company"

Please can you provide details ?

Thanks

I've been a little distracted - should have taken a better look at that config.sys (we all have our moments, I suppose) - my concern over the version was to fit my improbable (& quite incorrect) explanation of the error message.

That card may be problematic, although the more info you can post, the greater the chance someone might be able to pin down a driver.

It may prove simpler in the long run to try and find an old SoundBlaster/CD combo to install. I believe the only kind of CDs that would be supported on a 386 would run from its own interface card (or soundcard). SB drivers would likely be a little easier to find

Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.

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Hello everyone

Hind if i jump in here? Tracy, try this link:

http://members.driverguide.com/driver/detail.php?driverid=6825

...if you haven't tried this one yet? I downloaded the driver file myself and had a look at it; it is for windows 3.1. The readme in the file says it does not support all cdrom models (so it does support some). Worth a try if you're interested....

If you're not a member of driverguide.com, it's free to sign up (and takes about a minute).

Good luck,
James.

more info...

looks like your card might be a Reveal MSC-400 Multimedia FX; do you see writing like this on the front of the card? here is a link on driverguide.com for another possible driver:

http://members.driverguide.com/driver/detail.php?driverid=11807

looks like it might be a better driver than the first one.

James

one more post...

here's a possible driver for the cdrom on the card:

http://www.soundcard-drivers.com/drivers/65/65077.htm

description of the driver says it's for a 2x cdrom (possibly that sony you've got).

james