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Do I need dual processors

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Original Message
Name: Osensei
Date: June 25, 2004 at 17:23:58 Pacific
Subject: Do I need dual processors
OS: SuSE Linux 8.0
CPU/Ram: 512 MB
Comment:

I'll be hosting website for my online store from a server that I'm building. This is the typical store catalog with online shopping cart. The main question is does this server need to be a dual processing system.

On this server I'll be running:

SuSE Linux 8.0
Postgres SQL database server
DNS (may move to another server)
SSL (Open SSL)
SMTP (may move to other server)
Apache 2
Tomcat 4

My original plan was to run a dual Athlon MP based system with an IDE software raid (4 drives in raid 5 configuration).

Due to budget contraints the webserver and database server will have to be combined as you see above. I can afford to move some services like the local DNS and SMTP to another box.

The internet connection will be the bottleneck as I cannot afford T1. I'm stuck with a Business class DSL with 380+ KB/s upstream.

I need a second opinion. I've been told in other forums that the dual CPU and perhaps the raid was overkill. The reasoning seemed to be that given the speed of the connection any system I build using todays technology (even a single processor + an IDE HD w/o raid) will be fast enough to keep up with my upstream bandwith of 380+ KB/s. It was said that a multiprocessing raid box will just sit idle most of the time.

What's your opinion? Anyone want to weigh in?


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Response Number 1
Name: FBI Agent
Date: June 25, 2004 at 18:31:38 Pacific
Subject: Do I need dual processors
Reply: (edit)

well i have to say that 380K is WEAK!! how many hits do you plan on getting every hour? that maximum download speed will be less than 47KB/s. if you do continue on this internet connection, you dont want a lot of pictures on your website, maybe 1 or 2 as they use a lot of bandwidth. if i were you, i'd try and get a t1 if you have multiple pictures and plan on having lets say... 50 users at once.

FBI_Agent


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Response Number 2
Name: anonproxy
Date: June 25, 2004 at 20:27:08 Pacific
Subject: Do I need dual processors
Reply: (edit)

The comments you recieved previously are correct. Common network traffic is not CPU-intensive and the bandwidth is low. The only likely situation that can tax your machine's performance would be once your RAM is basically filled. Obviously, it's hard to imagine that happening under any sane configuration with your kind of network limits.


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Response Number 3
Name: Osensei
Date: June 25, 2004 at 21:12:00 Pacific
Subject: Do I need dual processors
Reply: (edit)

What about the database? Since the database and the webserver reside on the same machine, user requests will cause database activity on the server. Won't that increase CPU activity especially with multiple hits.

Won't the raid also help by reducing disk drive contention between multiple requests?

Also there is CPU overhead associated with software raid isn't there?

Am I just missing the point here? Should I just go with a single CPU? Should I dump the raid idea as well?

Anything approaching T1 speed will cost $500/month. I currently can't afford that. My provider in my area is SBC. They have business class services at various speeds for DSL. The package I can afford is 1.5 Mb/s download and 384 kb/s upstream.

In terms of cost where can I find a better ISP option?

Osensei


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Response Number 4
Name: FBI Agent
Date: June 26, 2004 at 10:09:59 Pacific
Subject: Do I need dual processors
Reply: (edit)

if you have no pictures on your site or maybe one picture you might be could get away with having a 384k upload, but thats the bottle neck right now, not the processor. im pretty sure one processor can handle 30-50 people (im not really sure about processors and webtraffric but i think this makes sense) depending on what they're extracting from the database. the pictures however would have to be minimal as they would use a lot more bandwidth compared to an ASP file that you use to display your page.
it might be a good idea to just keep the 2 processors because it soundslike you dont have anything else to spend the money on and you may be able to afford the t1 line someday which might actually be need the duel processors.

"afford is 1.5 Mb/s download and 384 kb/s upstream"
if you wanna save some extra money each month, you might wanna get rid of the 1.5M download. i dont think you'll be downloading a lot of stuff and saving like 100-150 bucks a month with a 384/384 line would be good.

i dont know all of what you need, but those are some suggestions. i hope they helped.

FBI_Agent


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Response Number 5
Name: Osensei
Date: June 26, 2004 at 11:04:21 Pacific
Subject: Do I need dual processors
Reply: (edit)

384/384? I thought 384 was too slow. Right now my thumbnails are about 2-3 kb on average. The gallery images average < 20k each in size. How much of a performance lag are we talking about here?

384/384 look symetrical. Will the SDSL 384/384 perform better on the upload side than the ADSL 1.5 - 384. If not, if found a DSL quote for SDSL @768/768 kb/s for $249/mo.

My other option is to let my ISP host my server for $84 a month. This sounds like a deal, but as usual these web hosting companies impose their limits. They only give 500MB and limit downloads to 30Gb a month. To me it sounds like there are too many gotchas built into web hosting.

What's your opinion?

Osensei


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Response Number 6
Name: FBI Agent
Date: June 26, 2004 at 18:12:07 Pacific
Subject: Do I need dual processors
Reply: (edit)

it actually would be a whole lot better to host it somewhere other than your house.
500MB and limit downloads to 30Gb a month. with your current internet speed of 384k upload, its NOT possible for you to use 30gigs of badwidth in one month and 500MB of HD space!?! thats SOOOO much. i have some web stuff that im messing with and it's only like 7MB, but i dont have a whole lot either. however, you'd have to multiply all of what i have by about 80 to use all 500MB and that IS a lot of stuff.

if you are still pushing toward using your own comp and whatever, that 768/768 would be a whole lot better than 384 upload.

oh, here's another thing.

"500MB and limit downloads to 30Gb a month" * 2 = about $170

if you got 2 accounts from your ISP, you'd be saving 250 - 170 = "$80/month" and your website would be as fast as lightning.

FBI_Agent


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Response Number 7
Name: anonproxy
Date: June 27, 2004 at 15:06:13 Pacific
Subject: Do I need dual processors
Reply: (edit)

"Won't [the database] increase CPU activity especially with multiple hits."

Yes, but the CPU will be the fastest part of the machine. I would therefore look to the slower parts. What are you doing? Querying data and sending it over the network, mostly.


"Won't the raid also help by reducing disk drive contention between multiple requests?"

Yes. RAID is recommended. I never hinted not to use RAID.

"Also there is CPU overhead associated with software raid isn't there?"

Oh yes. Do your homework, pay a real price, and buy a respected RAID card.

"Am I just missing the point here?"

Your're looking at everything. Assuming your software is suitable, look at two things (aside from common sense like getting the functionality you need):

1) The most immediate bottleneck to the machine's chief function.

2) The cheapest ways to increase performance.

Going by #2, RAM and CPU are cheap to extend a little and both directly influence performance. An SMP setup is not, relative to these basic things, cheap.

Think about #1. Clearly, your bandwidth is limiting. It's the slowest part and yet the whole point of this machine relies on the network. The cheapest option is offsite hosting to improve this. If that's unreasonable, then bringing the bandwidth to you is relatively expensive. Depends on factors you have not shared related to your business plan (as a reoccuring cost, for one).

RAID is not cheap, but it's a multifaceted solution. IDE drives are cheap and storage is part of your needs. RAID can cut your seek times and that can be a bottleneck. RAID also can provide some stability and backup.

"Anything approaching T1 speed will cost $500/month."

That's one reason why DSL is so cheap, ironically (offset the cost of infrastructure to business). Some ares have DSL above T1 bandwidth, but it's not necessarily business grade lines. I probably would have looked at a hosted box. You're may be right in the middle where you need the extra performance and customized features beyond reasonably-priced hosting, but you also need the bandwidth. Still, even with 1Mbps you're talking <128KB/sec. We can safely call it really slow for a server.

The only other option I can see is using multiple DSL lines (not cheap and requires more configuration on your end too). Again, I would have explored hosting, but that's a different route. I never saw much economy in enduser hosting. Webhosting is nice, but you have to be a little savvy. It's not eBay though and there are some respectable companies (ask around off the Internet, check some rating sites, check Netcraft, etc.). You need to lay down a little money to have a good business relationship, no question.



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Response Number 8
Name: Jeruvy
Date: June 29, 2004 at 10:20:00 Pacific
Subject: Do I need dual processors
Reply: (edit)

Why not look into either:

Dedicated hosting or co-location hosting.

These providers can offer you more bandwidth for less buck.

Some great ideas above but I didn't see this mentioned.

J.
j e r u v y a t y a h o o d o t c o m


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Response Number 9
Name: FBI Agent
Date: June 29, 2004 at 17:55:05 Pacific
Subject: Do I need dual processors
Reply: (edit)

actually, that was pretty much about what anaproxy and i were saying. im guessing you didnt read it all or you read it too fast


FBI_Agent


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