Folks,

I'd been considering another browser. IE is just becoming too much of worry.

I'd heard of Mozilla Firefox and without much checking...just gave it a try. I must say that I'm quite impressed.

It seems much faster and smoother loading pages, etc. My main concern was it working with online banking and other sites that make use of high security and other embedded programming.

Everything seems to work flawlessly (so far). And the pop-up blocker is great. HOWEVER, for sites that use pop-up windows as part of their core features, you can open the tools section and add urls to the "pop-ups are okay " list.

I use AOL's web email and AIM and wondered about AIM's pop-up, etc. It did block it at first (aim) but after putting its url on the "okay" list, it's working fine.

SO......for just day to day browsing (as is prolly 80% of the market) this thing is great. I even have to look twice to make sure it is not IE...the look and feel is virtually identical.

IMO, MS has something to worry about (meaning they'll either sabatoge, copy, or buy them out within 1 year).

P.S. I have notice that resizing of and text-wrap around in embedded text boxes (like what I'm typing in now) is very occasionally a bit quirky. But it's virtually not worth mentioning.

Any other opinions?

Firefox is far from having the look and feel of IE in my opinion and it lacks one huge feature of IE that I've come to enjoy and use a lot and that is the links option. It also has the netscape fell because that is what it is, netscape with a new wrapping and I hated netscape, still do hate it.

I myself will not stop using IE as with SP2 it has become a lot safer and I enjoy IE and have no fear myself because my system is locked down pretty tight.

One day I might switch over to firefox and I do have it on my system but not anytime soon as the fears in my opinion are more media hype than anything else but that is my opinion. I can't wait till firefox gets hit hard and trust me, it will as more folks use it.

KTTD

Though I walk through the valley of Microsoft, I shall fear no OS for skills are with me

I have noticed that some of the free online virus scanners (e.g. McAfee) will not work with Mozilla. And there may be some needed plug-ins that are not available (not sure).

You are prolly right about it being safer simply b/c it has not been hard hit (so, the its safety is not something that's inherent in it's structure ?)

But, until then, I think I'm gonna use it as my default browser....it seems to run so smoothly. If I come across something that I simply must do that it will not....I'll just click the blue E.

Maybe after the final SP2 comes out I'll switch back.

Don't get me wrong I do not dislike Firefox I just feel it has a long way to go before it will knock IE off the radar map. Of all the IE flaws that have come and gone I myself have never been effected by one of them nor have any of my clients even been effected by any of these flaws.

Now if a major flaw comes along and 50% of IE users are caused headaches then IE is in serious trouble but that has yet to happen and I doubt it ever will.

KTTD

Though I walk through the valley of Microsoft, I shall fear no OS for skills are with me

“Of all the IE flaws that have come and gone I myself have never been effected by one of them nor have any of my clients even been effected by any of these flaws.”

That is an interesting comment, I have never been affected by any of the flaws and I personally don’t know anyone who has. I also have had only 1 virus in the 11 years I have been using the Internet. There is an article on CNET that claims “The weakest security link? It's you”

http://news.com.com/The+weakest+security+link%3F+It%27s+you/2100-7355_3-5278576.html?tag=cnetfd.buzz

which is a valid argument. I did however, switch to Mozilla recently, I felt if I have the option to pick a browser that is safer I should. The old argument that is something similar to, “the more popular an application becomes, the more frequent security exploits occur,” is true but the chances of Mozilla/Firefox becomes more popular (or even close to it) than IE is slim to none. A comparison could be the number of security holes found in Apple’s OS compared to Windows.

Richard,

How is it safer to switch if you know how to protect your computer? If I felt IE was a huge security issue I would switch in a heart beat and I would advise my clients to do the same but I do not because I have them pretty damn well protected.

A computer is not like a stove. You cannot just hook it up properly and forget about it. People treat computers like everyday household appliances and they are not the same.

Hear is a scary fact but this is a fact I speak of from truth and nothing more. 98% of the time I was called out to remove spyware from a computer was because of a teenage boy was looking for porn and using Kazaa. Older folks never had issues with spyware or browser hijackings and if they did on their PC it was because of the teenagers in their homes.

It was also rare that a teenage girl was the cause of massive spyware or virus infections but it did happen from time to time but it was rare. A co-worker of mine even went to Newt Gingrich's house to remove spyware that was porn related.

A computer is only as as safe as the person in front of it and always will be that way. Ok, I'm done with my rant :)

KTTD

Though I walk through the valley of Microsoft, I shall fear no OS for skills are with me

All because something bad has happened to my computer besides the 1 virus, it doesn’t mean it won’t. I protect my computer to the best of my ability, I also back up my important files because I like to take precautions.

I don’t recommend your clients use Mozilla simply because of ease of use and the message, “Internet Explorer Version 5 or Higher Required” will drive them nuts. For experienced users, I suggest you look into Mozilla and decide if it is right based on your findings. It seems like KTTD’s mind is already set and that is fine with me, I won’t argue with it.

Commenting on the social aspect of security....I agree that most (virtually all) is a behaviorial issue.

I do occasional residential pc service calls and sometimes wonder if most res connections are just sitting ducks.

With the ever growing popularity of broadband and self-install kits, this will prolly increase significantly in the near future, unless bband ISPs begin to build in some sort of security.

Very often I have provided phone or an actual on-site support for a res who had a bb connection that was WIDE OPEN. No router....no software firewall.....no NOTHING. They would not only not know it was necessary, but would have no clue as to what it was.

Even more shocking is that for those who had the isp do the install, the installer did not even mention it.

I cannot imagine the horrors currently residing on thousands of res PCs around the country.

All that said, if Mozilla tends to be more secure "out of the box," it may be a good option for many users.

However, I must add that after using it for a few days, I have noticed glitches with more ccard/finacial sites (I assume encryption issues) and simple display formatting issues on others.

It appears to be a great browser for basic surfing.....especially if one only visits a specific few sites regularly.

This is a good read kev100

"Online Security Tips" and "Tips for Securing Online Financial Transactions"

http://www.bitsinfo.org/ost.html

kev100,

Regardless of what browser you use, you will still need IE to visit Windows Update!

i_XpUser

Indeed.

For anyone following the thread....it would never be advisable to remove/disable IE (if that's even possible). It is simply too integrated into the Windows OS as well as being needed for many important sites that one may rely upon (e.g. banking site, etc).

Another IE necessity I've found is for FTP as a drag/drop webfolder. I don't think that Mozilla has FTP built in.

However, this evening (as a test) I visited several sites notorious for dropping TONS of cookies and having a zillion pop-ups...almost to the point of being unusable.

With Mozilla...I was able to view without any disruptions....only 1 site had a couple of pop-ups .

After browsing a few minutes.....I closed Mozilla and ran several updated spy/ad cleaning programs. All showed completely clean.

While IE can be made to be just as ad-free (or even more so), it has to be used in conjunction with various blocking programs or be configured in ways that only a tech or geek-inclined person would be inclined to do.

Mozilla allows pretty clean browsing upon install. Great for the home user. And, of course, the blue E is right there on the left whenever needed.

Yes, it is impossible to remove IE from Windows. I don't even know why IE has an uninstall option.

I too have been getting a little concerned with my security while using IE. So I also switched to Firefox. It’s not perfect, it freezes up sometimes when you have to many tabs open. And it has other tiny flaws. I really wish it had the personalized favorites menu feature but it doesn’t.

Over all it’s a very good browser. I prefer Netscape though, and yes I’m aware that Netscape is made by Mozilla, but I have Netscape on CD so why download Mozilla? lol

Symbios

Mozilla seems to work fine in most instances except where some not too smart webpage designer has written the page to IE standards and not to true html standards . I have never had a problem with any financial pages , all these browsers support 128 bit encryption so security really shouldn't be a worry from that aspect , the popup and tabbed browsing are the best reasons to use the Mozilla , Netscape family .
It is also not totally integrated into the OS so there isn't any problems with it interfering with other stuff .

Hi

Just a small point ot the above comments, I have uzed firefox, and do use the latest Mozilla browser, as wel as the Latest From Netscape.

Yes most of them work better than IE we all agree on that.

But your comments about removing IE from Wondows !!! Yes it can be done.

1. Controll Panel
2. Add and Remove Progrmas
3. Add and remove Windows components.
4. Select IE Icon
5. Click on Uninstall
6. Restart.

= IE Gone

To Reinstall follow above procedure but select Install instead of Remove.

Be warned though I have come across a couple of programs that will not update without IE.

As for windows Update !!! Wel there are other ways to obtain the patches and updates without using the windows update feature.

Regards

IF IT AINT BROKE, DONT FIX IT - SIGNATURE COURTESY OF BUZZ187

As for windows Update !!! Wel there are other ways to obtain the patches and updates without using the windows update feature.

Like what - autopatcher?

i_XpUser

All patches can be downloaded for installtion at alter point in time dricet from the download section of MS.

Have a look

IF IT AINT BROKE, DONT FIX IT - SIGNATURE COURTESY OF BUZZ187

http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/search.aspx?displaylang=en&categoryid=7

IF IT AINT BROKE, DONT FIX IT - SIGNATURE COURTESY OF BUZZ187

http://www.microsoft.com/security/bulletins/200407_windows.mspx

Latest July updates section.

Neext question XP !!!

IF IT AINT BROKE, DONT FIX IT - SIGNATURE COURTESY OF BUZZ187

I did forget one small point XP

When you have alook at the latest update section click on the Get More Information in the technical bulletin.

That will open the specific info and down load manu for ech OS choose the one you have and save the patch to your hard drive and install it at your will.

Your appology is acceppted.

IF IT AINT BROKE, DONT FIX IT - SIGNATURE COURTESY OF BUZZ187

Like I said, I don’t know why there is an uninstall option. You cannot remove IE because it is to tightly integrated into Windows, and a lot of other programs depend it too, such as Windows Explorer! And you can’t do a heck of a lot on your computer without that!

The only thing “uninstalling” IE seems to do is remove the IE icons. Try it! Uninstall Internet Explorer and click on an HTML file, or go to “My Computer” and type a web address in, such as www.google.com and Internet Explorer will pop right up. So you see, Internet explorer is still there and always will be.

Damn you Bill Gates!

Symbios

Sym !!!

So what am I doing wrong ????

I have removed the thing a number of times and its never poped back up again !!!

The few programs which I have would not update withoiut it, so I had to put the darn thing back.
No matter how many times I made Netscape my default browser with and without IE.

Try importing the links from IE into your other browser first. But Im sure you have done that already.

But I will go and try it again, on the ME installation, and will post the results to you.

IF IT AINT BROKE, DONT FIX IT - SIGNATURE COURTESY OF BUZZ187

Totally remove IE6 from XP? Look here

MSKB Article 293907 / How to Uninstall Internet Explorer 6

Quote:

Internet Explorer 6 is preinstalled by default in all versions of Windows XP. To provide computer manufacturers greater flexibility in configuring desktop versions of Windows XP, Microsoft has made it possible for OEMs, administrators, and users to remove user access to Internet Explorer while leaving the Internet Explorer code intact and fully functional to ensure the functionality of programs and operating system functions that rely on it. For example, Windows XP supports an "IEAccess=off" switch in the Unattend.txt file, and Internet Explorer has been added to the Add/Remove Windows Components section of the Add/Remove Programs tool in Control Panel.

i_XpUser

All patches can be downloaded for installtion at alter point in time dricet from the download section of MS.

Hi Janos,

You're correct. I stand corrected. When I use Firebird as one of my alternative browsers, I got this:

Thank you for your interest in Windows Update

Windows Update is the online extension of Windows that helps you get the most out of your computer. You need to be running a version of Internet Explorer 5 or higher in order to use Windows Update.

Download the latest version of Internet Explorer

Once Internet Explorer is installed, you can go to the Windows Update site by typing http://windowsupdate.microsoft.com into the address bar of Internet Explorer.

If you prefer to use a different Web browser, updates to Windows may be downloaded from the Microsoft Download Center.

Regards

i_XpUser

About downloading XP updates for later installation....

I've tried this in the past, but I could not (using IE) get the process to work where the browser will check the available updates then report which updates are needed and also divide them into Critical/Drivers/etc.

I sometimes need this for computers that need many of the updates (but not all of them) but do not have bband connections.

In the past, I have been able to download all updates (which are tons) and then take that cd on site....BUT would have to install each update one by one....usually having to reboot after each - a HUGE pain.

So...is it possible to Download all available updates then run the "Windows Update" proceedure (or something similar) which checks a specified location for the update data, reports which ones are needed, and installs them all at once (sort of simulating the online process)?

PS - I have gotten the free CD directly from MS, but it did not appear to have any sort of utility that would do the above.

Thanks very much.

Ok ladoes and gentleman here is the story.

I have just done a complete new isntall of Xp on my test rig, with ME, and Linux SUSE 9.0 on a triple boot setup.

Yes you can UNISTALL IE6 and its tools completely. I am using firefox latest eddition at the moment.

I have been to MS and other sites and I have had no trouble of downloading the patches etc for later installation.

Here is the trick, you will need to activate the auto update feature if you want to get the normal on line updates direct. This will eliminate the need to visit the windows update site. And its working fine, I left 2 updates on the MS site and yes the auto update has found them brought them down and i have inatalled them.

It will run in the background and look for updates allong the time frame as you configure it.

I have done this for both ME and XP and so far no problems.

Kev !!

I dont know if that is possible as I ahvent played with the update side of things that much, but I do know some of the patches and updates do have an option box for you to tick if you dont wish to restart at that time. You can continue with other udate installations.

But there are some which will restart your system automaticly, this you have no controll over.

Hope this has been some help to you.

IF IT AINT BROKE, DONT FIX IT - SIGNATURE COURTESY OF BUZZ187

I have a question: I'm using Win95 [still] and have been using Mozilla 1.7 for a few weeks, with satisfaction. However, my hard drive is loading up and I'm wondering how to clean out the stored info. Uninstaller doesn't touch the stuff. Deltree/y tempor~1 does do something, but there's more to be scraped off, evidently. Any ideas? Many thanks!

Janos,
You can't take away IE from XP. It is built into XP, when you uninstall it, that is just taking away the shortcuts to it from the start/programs and the desktop. Check it out when you go to add/remove programs then click the windows components. It gives all the space you save if you uninstall it. On XP that space is 0 , noda , nothing, and the reason for that is because it doesn't really uninstall it, but takes the shortcuts away only. If you highlight it in that box and read the description below it says "Adds or Removes access to Internet Explorer from the Start Menu and Desktop".
I as Kevin the Tech Dude have had very little problems with security on Internet Explorer. But I use it only for Windows update!! Why you may ask? For me it's because Firefox with the proper extensions will change the way you see the web, literally. Installing extensions are as easy as 1 2 3, go to the extensions page, click on the extension you want, it will ask if you really want to install it you click yes, it takes about 5 or 10 seconds and then you restart the browser. The Adblock extension is probably the best thing since apple pie. You can either right click an ad and choose to adblock it or you can put in key words like this /doubleclick/ and every ad from doubleclick will not be downloaded. That saves loading time on page also. One keyword can eliminate hundreds or even thousands of ads. You also don't get the big ugly space there where the ad used to be, it is compressed so you don't even know the ad was suppose to be there. If you want to turn it off to see if it's blocking a ad you want to see, you just hit ctrl,shift and b to toggle off and on. This is just one example of one extension and there is over 100 of them. I'd like to see anything like this on IE! Heck IE just got the pop up blocker on it. Firefox has had that since it was named Pheonix when it first started.
There are so many other features to Firefox that I could spend all day telling you about like, when you middleclick(mouse wheel) it will open that link in a new tab. You don't like the way buttons are arranged you can drag and drop them to any bar. For instance you could put the forward and back buttons up by the "help" on the top bar.
Bottom line is that just cause KTTD doesn't want to give something a chance and install some extensions and customize a browser because he likes IE better, doesn't mean you have to feel the same way.
Bottom line is YOU have to make up your mind if you want to try it and play around with it and see if it's right for you. Just cause I think it's GREAT doesn't mean you have to like it, but the only way you will know is if you download and install it and play with some of the options and extensions, give it an honest chance and if I'm full of crap you can uninstall it(unlike IE) and come back here and tell me so.

I've been comfortably using Mozilla Firefox for about three years now. It doesn't suffer from any security flaws often, unlike Internet Explorer which is ridden with them (just take a look at Windows Update on a fresh non-SP1 install of XP).

The pop-up blocker is a great feature, even though I have Javascript disabled anyway. The options dialog is far more logical and understandable than IE's too.

Yes, it is impossible to completely remove IE from Windows XP. There are probably dozens of DLLs that you would need to modify so that they no longer contain IE code. You can uninstall the program (from the Internet Explorer folder in Program Files) using a variety of tools. XPlite is a nice tool for doing this. However, the operating system is hardcoded with IE controls everywhere.

I would love to see a cleaned-up version of XP with no IE at all. But it just ain't gonna happen. Unless Microsoft smarten up their act. Anyway, that's another story. The bottom line is: Firefox is a better, safer, quicker and smaller browser. IE lovers can convert themselves in less than an hour.

James

Mozilla Firefox is a great browser..

Simple design, fast, with User friendly setup and options.

Definitely my choice over IE any day...