What's up with all the VB questions lately? Is it just me or are VB problems on the rise now? Maybe I'm just a little edgy or my eyes are playing tricks on me...

-Rolos

C & C++ till I die...

I noticed the same thing. Someone opened the gate to let the VB programmers loose. lol. The question is, why is Oracle trying to force People Soft out of business... is Oracle the next Microsoft !?!?

Infinite Recursion

Haha. I highly doubt that. Until you can master Microsoft's schemish technique of slapping pretty GUIs onto sloppy engineering, thats the only time that any company will be able to compete with Microsoft.

lol, yeah. I say we all work togather and take the Linux kernel. Throw a bunch of bugs and memory leaks in it, take out a ton of features, and have some kindergartner design one of those crappy XPee style GUIs to take up all the screen. Then sell it for $200. I'm thinkin we could get a lot of business...Oh we have to advertise it as being "secure" and "advanced technology" Also, every two weeks we need to put out another security patch or service pack and make them update OR buy the new and improved(more buggy) update for only $125:þ

We'd be rich, and I'd have money to go to college. The only prob. is I don't think I could do such a thing to the Linux kernel.

-Micah

I heard that microsoft is beginning a new advertising campaign, where it will start allowing advertisers to put their logos on the blue screen of death.

A spokesman for microsoft noted that this would be an enormous advantage over its competitors, saying "So far as our testing has been able to show, linux doesn't even HAVE a blue screen of death."

That was a little joke I heard around campus that none of my friends or family seem to get...Thought I'd give it a go here among my peers:-)

Yeah I hear ya on the VB overrun. Today was the first time I'd legitimately answered a question for quite some time. Somebody finally asked something on perl.

Don't forget micah, the "service packs" have to be at least 50MB.

-SN

Sure we could get to work on it whenever we want. And why not make the entire Operating System 500 Gb's large? I mean with the size of the current hard drives consumers can afford that kind of disk space nowadays. Look at what has become of technology now, in the days of the Altair you would be lynched at the very thought of a 500 Gb hard drive.

Come to think of it, the only reason I could think of as to why hard drives are so big now, are for people to find a place to keep their porn. Who knows, maybe tomorrow companies might be announcing the all new 200 Terabyte hard drive at 5 billion rpms with Pentium announcing their 500 Ghz Pentium 20 processor and jlkj0239eij motherboards. Microsoft will launch their new Windows POS to support all the new goodies (end sarcasm).

But pertaining to the original topic, why are people trying to use VB to handle the system queues?

- Rolos

P.S. Sorry my imagination ran wild there in the beginning.

Sounds like a lot of "students" just got out of school for the summer and are trying to do some "real" programming, not just class assignments, and have found they need to learn VB to do anything in the real world. I don't think there many courses that teach VB and there are few good reference books left on store shelves nowadays.

lol. I'm glad to see my Oracle vs Microsoft concept take flight. The linux kernel shouldn't be destroyed to compete with Micro$hit, although I found the idea amusing. lol Maybe we can buy Microsoft winders and put another name on the box and sell it back to Xerox? lol

Infinite Recursion

Well, honestly few people care about how code works, efficiency, or clever/innovative design.

Computers are for the world now, not just smart people. VB is only the beginning.

I care about about how the code works, how smooth it flows, effiency, portability, creative design, etc. I always try and find ways to optimize code and algorithms that I find useful.

Even if today's computer hardware makes it to where its not important because of super sonic speeds and lower resource consumption... It is still a concern because, what about the businesses and individuals who don't have the funds, nor the desire to upgrade to the leading technology? If this was the mindset of programmers that were flipping the switches on the binary inputs, then it is safe to say that all of our software today would require a minimum of a Tetrabyte of memory...

Visual Basic questions are on the rise, because, in my opinion, its the easiest to learn. It has the nice, point-and-click interface... and the "i don't know what to do, so tell me" factor. Tell me where in the current industry do you find mission critial applications developed in Visual Basic?

I personally like VB, I don't have a problem with it at all... especially for quick and dirty interface development. I just figured, that I would share my rant with you all :)

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It is the advances in mathematics and technology that makes data abstraction possible. It is also brilliant minds that make good reliable algorithms, which is also why consumers really could give a rat's arse about algorithm and software efficiency. Considering that the public is naive about such matters, you would know that as computer scientists our main area of study is algorithms, we study computing. And we are of a clever breed to say the least.

I don't know about you guys, but whenever I strike up a conversation about what computer science really is, I choke in giving an explanation. It's just that you learn so much in one semester that it's impossible to explain the depths of computer science to anyone. I mean how in the heck are you supposed to tell someone on the street how to work and compute with binary. On the same foot, I know for a fact that people could care less about Turing and finite state machines for that matter.

It is also on that matter that people do not understand what programming is all about. Everyone thinks that computer science is all about studying the mouse or the monitor. No matter how hard I try, people are just so fixed on the idea that it's nearly impossible to change their minds about computer science. I mean sure any person could write a hello world program in any language, but can that person really understand how it works beneath the hood?

However I do agree that VB is the way to go for beginners. I found it quite curious as to why there were so many VB questions. As of late I have been anxious to answer a good C++ question again. It has been quite a while. But to say that no one cares about computer efficiency is off the wall. It's just like saying that mechanics are useless because no one cares about what goes on beneath the hood of their car. People like us are needed to shield the user from doing stupid things that could prove fatal to their computer.

On the Microsoft issue however I must impress that Windows 2000 is my favorite operating system as of late. I find it to be the most reliable OS that Microsoft has released yet. Microsoft indeed produces a lot of good stuff, and more so a lot of bad stuff. They just pioneered particular marketing and technological strategies that make them what they are today, HUGE.

I had never planned on becoming a computer scientist in the first place. But as most of you can relate, the thrill you get, that 'Aha' you feel when you find that pesky bug in your code is the reason why I love this whacky profession in the first place. I have found nothing more challenging or rewarding and I am proud and honored to be among such field of talented and clever professionals.

Visual Basic in my opinion, are engine parts pre-assembled so you can quickly put things together with greater ease. C & C++, allows you to make adjustments to those engine parts which makes it all the more powerful as well as allowing you to put things together as well. Like Bjarne Stroustrup's philosophy, it is impossible and worthless to try and compare languages. Without a doubt that is the truth. Each language has it's ups and downs. But I like C & C++ more because you can do a heck of a lot with it.

-Rolos

I agree that it is very difficult for the average, educated person to understand many "simple concepts":

*Decimal is not the only way to count.
*Your computer does not use GUI's, you do.
*It is a not-so-easy thing to generate a truly random number.

The list goes on of course...

I see computer science as a wonderful, practical discipline. Computing is about getting things done. In the process, tools are created, languages are developed, systems are devised, and algorithms are set to work.

And these are only by-products. The real fun is just understanding everything.

Good thread - even if it did start about VB.

Seriously though, VB is fine. I really do not care what anyone else programs in.

Right on rolos...

"But as most of you can relate, the thrill you get, that 'Aha' you feel when you find that pesky bug in your code is the reason why I love this whacky profession in the first place."

Progasm:þ

I also agree with your wind0ze 2k comment. It's their best work since 3.1

Exactly anonproxy, sometimes I just cant understand how and why they dont get it. Why cant everyone just be competent:(

I can't wait till I start working my way as a computer science major. It's going to be so much fun once I'm through with those introductory classes.

Yeah, VB is ok...I was hooked on it for a few years...until I was ready for C++. Now I only use it for teaching ppl or helping out with their problems.

-Micah

lol. 'progasm' that's some good comedian content *micah*. indeed VB is a good language, I blame it on my professor for my not liking it so much. although I must confess that it's a very good language for creating simple games and such. In C++ and API it's a fricking nightmare.

Next semester I'm taking a web site management course which will cover everything from MySQL, APACHE, credit card validations and so forth. I haven't done much with databases, I've written some file management programs in C++ that would somewhat resemble a tiny database. So I will find out how VB and VBScript will fall into place.

I like the simplicity of creating GUIs in VB. You click and go, double click on controls and everything pops up for you. It's a language that reduces the risk of carpal tunnel, I just adore the way things just pop up in VB 6. I mean we guys needs the use of our hands...for...you know...coding. 8)

-Rolos

I'll use VB as a front-end to my C++ programs. Muhaha. ;)

"have found they need to learn VB to do anything in the real world"

What?????

A world where you have to know VB is a world that I want no part of. I'm a subscriber to the "real programmers don't use VB" philosophy.

Speaking of jokes that your friends & family & VB programmers won't get...

There are 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.

Man, with the newer topics, I kind of take back my kind remarks to reaffirm some of my offending comments. People think that they can use VB to manipulate hardware now. This is offending to a C or C++ programmer.

I mean if you can use VB6 I am almost certain that you have access to VC++. If not, then learn some C++. You can't live inside your shell forever. Would any of you guys use a chain saw to refinish the paint on your classic Mustang BOSS?
It is imperative to use the right tools for the job.

I think that this is exactly what my professor had warned us students about. There are wars that occur with all languages and all methods. He especially pointed out the philosophical war amongst computers scientists concerning the use of 'goto'.

Maybe this is what this VB topic is heating up to be. I am neither pro nor con, but when it gets down to the dirty stuff, you might as well switch to a different language and leave VB to do the balle dancing.

- Rolos

There is not one language to do everything, each of them have pros and cons, some more so than others. If all you learn is Visual Basic and think you are a programmer, then... ummmm, you are sadly mistaken. Its good as a start, and yes you can make good applications with VB on occasion... but I suggest you move on to another language. I would like to make an analogy here, I am not wanting to insult anyone... but I think its funny. ;)

To me, visual basic is the Liberal Arts of programming. If you are in college or have been, and noticed how many people major in Pyschology, Sociology, History, English.. blah blah... because they are scared of technology or don't think they can succeed (what ever the case may be)... you can relate those people to "programmers" who only use Visual Basic and think they are going to make money. Look around people, the market is saturated with VB developers, just like people who get degrees in some Liberal Art profession just to say they went (yet, never use their degree).

I personally, like VB; however, if you want
to do anything in this industry... move on to something else, if it makes you feel better, from time to time, jump into VB and write a quick and dirty interface. lol

I'm pro C++, anti Liberal Arts (the sheep herd). lol

Infinite Recursion

IR's post has inspired me to add a post on an otherwise dead-horse beaten to death and made into glue topic.

Remember that all we're talking about here is a much wider argument...Abstraction. Although I hugely disagree with the statement that people that major in English or other liberal arts degrees only do so because they're afraid of technology (More accurately, we geeks don't major in ballet because we're afraid of how we'd look in leotards), I'll continue the analogy. To an assembly language programmer, C and C++ are the "liberal arts" of programming. To a hardware or architecture designer, assembly languge programmers are the "liberal arts" of programming, and to those that design transistors and chips at nearly the molecular level, hardware designers are the "liberal arts" of computer programming.

Abstraction is a good thing. We wouldn't want to write our programs in differential equations describing the current going through a series of logical gates and flip-flops, would we? Nevertheless, abstraction comes at the price of functionality. An assembly language programmer can't do nearly as many things as the chip designer can, just like a VB programmer can't do nearly as many things as a c++ programmer can, and so on down the line. A similar disagreement often occurs between fans of command-line and GUI based operating systems.

So lets not draw lines over who is a "real" programmer and who isn't. We all use a level of abstraction that gives us the functionality and ease of use suited to our particular task. I know plenty of visual basic programmers that make good money, and to many business owners, the speed at which they can pop out programs is well worth any minor technical side effects.

Having said this, I think all VB programmers are wussies and should be burned at the stake for profaning the name of programming. May heaven have mercy on your souless corpses, heathens.

-SN

I couldn't have said it better myself SN. I agree with you, it gets boiled down to the topic of Abstraction. (Who care's what's under the hood as long as it runs?)

As the generations of languages grow, our selection of what level of abstraction we choose will also expand. We all have our comfort zones on how much detail we want to consume. (I for one, do not want to write code in differential equations according to gates ;))

As far as our old / current classmates that chose a profession in Liberal Arts... I'm proud of ya :). You take me out of computer science / software engineering and put me in a liberal art field and I will be useless because I have no interests in LA. Everyone has their niche I suppose. I am sure they can write code just as well as myself if they tried.

VB programmers do make money, but in comparison to people who choose C++ / Java... its not up to par. It all boils down to meeting deadlines and what the boss wants anyway.

*beats the dead horse, one last time*

Infinite Recursion

Well IR, now we all know who's gonna be using a sledge hammer to pound nails into poor ol' grand-mama's antique rocking chair.

For those of you who have no clue what I'm talking about, read this. My analogy of programming languages and what I view them as.

- Rolos

lol.. Now, you know I wouldn't do that Rolos :) I will use the glue of C++.

Infinite Recursion

Hi,

The reason why VB questions are on the rise is because the number of VB programmer is on the rise as well. VB is an attractive language that keeps getting better and better. I can feel the insecurity and the tension that VB creates within the hearts of the C/C++ genius. VB dispels the myth that programming must be hard and difficult. Of course C/C++ programmers are upset, because they use to take pride in creating ActiveX and controlling the hardware that old BASIC and early version of Visual basic could not. Now as far as Windows is concerned new version of VB is amazing, VB can do it all.
VB is a revolution in the programming industry.
Talking about real life applications? There is no other programming languages that can do database better than VB. IBM database Siebel is written in VB. Talking about controlling hardware? The complete library of DirectX is available to VB now. VB Programmers can control hardware for games and graphics intensive applications with no difficulties. In VB.Net, VB programmers don’t even have to declare a win 32 API function to use it in their applications. Because VB is loaded with functionalities and very fun to use, it becomes more and more attractive to programmers and beginners. And beginners are asking more and more questions. You guys have to find out what the experts said about VB.
After I read you comments about VB, to me you are talking about BV version 2, 3, or 4. As far as VB 6, and VB.Net are concerned, you guys are way off the mark. VB.Net is fully object oriented and it is no more what you guys think. VB is not the liberal art of programming as IR put it. VB is well engineering to be fun and easy at beginner’s level. When start to get into creating COM and DCOM, one has to know what is going on under the hood. A good VB programmer can be as good as a C/C++ programmer. The logic of programming is basically the same in all-programming languages. VB stands apart for its simplicity.
Talking about making money? There are about four millions VB programmers out there, the market is enormous. A simple ActiveX, a game engine, a control object, a book, etc… can make a millionaire over night. Don’t be too pride because you know C or C++. The pride time for C/C++ is history. VB gives to its users the ability to finish an application in less time than C/C++’s users. The extra time could be spent with family and friends. C and C++ do not give that chance. They are low level programming languages, very close to assembly. They are difficult to use and not fun at all. VB is a high level language with an English like syntax, easy and fun to use.
People majoring in liberal art are not because they are afraid of technology. There is more to life than sitting down behind a computer screen twenty-four, seven. If you chose to do that, it is your choice. Judging other people base on what they are majoring in school is very brainless.

Some honest C/ C++ programmer described VB as a miracle. As Charles Petzold, author of one of the standard books on Windows programming in C, put it in the New York Times: “For those of us who make our living explaining the complexities of Windows programming to programmers, Visual Basic poses a real threat to our livelihood. “

Baba, with peace!!

Don't have time to argue with BBs whole post, so will just comment on one statement:

"A good VB programmer can be as good as a C/C++ programmer"

Not true, because a good VB programmer can program only for windows. A good C/C++ programmer can program on windows, unix, linux, ...

Well... It doesn't seem that my post was ever made it through regarding this new entry. So here it goes again...

Thanks for your input Baba! Unfortunately, I refuse to beat the dead horse again on this issue, in attempts to let the poor horse rest in peace.

On a side note, I agree with Don. VB programmers can't right code for Unix can they? Oh well... poor horsey :(

lol

Infinite Recursion

Ignore the right=write, and other grammatical errors... I'm tired. lol

Infinite Recursion

There are underlying things that the VB language cannot do. For example, C and C++ gives the programmer the most discretion over the mathematics used in developing some insane graphics. Like I said before VB is very limited. C and C++ gives you control over all the fine details. VB is like Legos; they're ready to be assembled into shapes within a domain. C and C++ are like Play-Doh; you can work and do a heck of a lot more with it as opposed to Legos. The domain in this case extends to infinity.

Also, to say that C and C++ does not give people the time to spend with their families is completely absurd. If it's taking time away from their families, they shouldnt be programming at all. Family always comes first. C++ is a great language as well as C. I agree that programming in binary would be something that would take away from your life. But not C++. If it takes away from family time, either you have a serious work-aholic problem or you seriously need to get out. C++ wouldn't have been invented if Bjarne and his team knew that programming with it would take away family time.

I thought this thread was dead, however I was wrong. To me, the thread was like a fish that was beaten over the head a thousand times, ran over with a hummer, then went in reverse and ran over again. Then obliterated with a nuke and it's bits and it's pieces drawn in a quarter (a medieval method of execution and torture where they tied a person's legs and arms to four horses that ran in opposing directions), which was then chopped up fried and eaten as pupus with some beer. Anyway this is a great lively debate. Thanks BaBa for bringing it back to life.

- Rolos

see rolos, their not using the correct tactics to kill the horse...not the right tools. this is where the slegehammer comes in use, not on grandmas rocking chair! lol. but i still think VB can do a hell of lot...maybe not quite up to C++, but your comparing apples and oranges here...its hard to say.

eaw8806

*takes out AK47...bye bye horsey*