Folks - I am an old man, have been programming for over 30 years, first code in FORTRAN in '67-68.

Currently doing Java work.

Question about all the homework I see posted here: do the high school kids *have* to take programming these days?

If so, I think that is foolish. You should stumble in to this profession. You either love it or you do not, you know right away.

If you don't, get out.

Regards, Guy

There are 4 programming courses at my High School, but they're all voluntary. I'm currently in the 2nd course (still in Quick Basic).

Yea the only required course is keyboarding for some dumb reason. But at my school we have Comp sci and Advanced Comp Sci ( for kids in AP classes) and Advanced Comp Sci 2.
In these classes they teach Java, and its a voluntary course.
I think we also have Web Mastering, Architextural Drafting, and Animation.... All are voluntary :)

GIMPS

guy,

"If so, I think that is foolish. You should stumble in to this profession. "

given that there are professions for dedicated computer programmers in specific languages, i think that stumbling into it may not be the best way as employers want properly trained programmers to employ

also, when i was teaching, i remember one of my students wanting to be a computer programmer. When i asked if he had done programming before, he said "no". If schools don't offer programming courses, kids do not have the chance to discover if they like programming or not. And some may discover through the course that surprisingly they do enjoy it and are good at it

serge

"Yea the only required course is keyboarding for some dumb reason"

Keyboarding is about the only class worth taking in all four years of high school. I definitely use it more than all the other ones combined :-)

"If schools don't offer programming courses, kids do not have the chance to discover if they like programming or not"

I don't think anybody is saying that they shouldn't offer classes, just that they shouldn't require them. No high schools I'm aware of require programming courses, and I agree it would be a bad idea. Why these people choose to take programming courses in High School or College then try to get others to do the work rather than just dropping out is beyond me.

I do think it's silly that high schools still teach using Basic. Why teach using a tool that encourages bad coding practice? It's comparable to teaching Driver's ed using a racecar. Java would be a much better choice.

-SN

my school has some crappy classes but i also only needed to take keyboarding. i've taken two full years of cisco networking and 1 semester of web-dev. they dont have any like programming classes like: VB, QB, C++ and what-not and i really hate that.

i think i'll eventually learn c++ but im gonna get mySQL and PHP down really good before i do that (i wish i had a fregging classe that i could go to to learn c++!!!)

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"I do think it's silly that high schools still teach using Basic. Why teach using a tool that encourages bad coding practice?"

Agreed - although "racecar" is not the metaphor I would have chosen to describe it ;-) It seems to me that a lot of people are being encouraged to be monolingual programming-wise too, which is not good at all. I have to say that that is undoubtedly due to the recent and anomalous dominance of one particular proprietary OS and the expense that would be involved in providing a fully furnished learning environment for it.

Teachers, children and other students should ideally have access to a rich and varied programming environment with a choice of many languages - scheme/lisp/guile/java/python/php/C/C++/objective C/.... together with a wide range of useful and interesting libraries. The solution is obvious of course and the money saved could be spent on buying some robots to programme or something like that.

"If schools don't offer programming courses, kids do not have the chance to discover if they like programming or not. "
That's a horrible thing to say. You make it sound as though kids don't have the opportunity to learn OUTSIDE the classroom (which is where I do almost *all* of my learning - as Mark Twain once said, "I never let my schooling interfere with my education").
I've been complaining since before I was a freshman that our school doesn't have any Computer Science classes. None. A middle-sized school (with about 1000 students) in the center of Wisconsin, and not a single Computer Science class (this is worsened by the fact that we're cutting budget in the English and Art departments to increase the budget for sports...which is even worse when you consider that we lose 9/10 football games...)
Realizing that my school was incompetent and that I'd never learn anything important there, I went on to teach myself computer programming, computer repair, everything-else-related-to-computers-that-one-could-possibly-conceive, physics (although, don't get me wrong, when I actually *took* physics, the teacher was awesome...), and calculus.
...After I graduate, I'm moving far, far away ^_^

What was the point of this little essay? ...Oh ya...don't assume that all kids today are too imcompetent to take their education into their own hands..just most of them. But then, that's no different than how it was in your day ;)

AKhalifman@hotmail.com

"Oh ya...don't assume that all kids today are too imcompetent to take their education into their own hands"
-...
Oh Irony, how thou smiteith thee....

AKhalifman@hotmail.com

"keyboarding" ??? Do you guys mean a typing class?

I definitely like "I never let my schooling interfere with my education" - I don't either.

Also was glad to hear that courses for the most part are not required - so you can stumble into it :-) ..... BTW, employers think they know what they want, but in reality they are (for the most part) clueless about what they actually need.

BlueRaja - I'd get the H out of Wisconsin if I were you .... drift on down to Chicago, great town, great women, and Illinois Institute of Technology has a great CS program.

Exposure to many languages - yes, that is best.

Thanks for the info folks.

Guy

Actually, I'm hoping to go to MIT, but (assuming I don't get accepted) otherwise I'll probably end up going to UW-Madison; I'm not sure how it sums up to Illinois Institute of Technology, but it's the best in WI, and I get cheaper tuition there for being a resident of WI...

AKhalifman@hotmail.com

"A middle-sized school (with about 1000 students) in the center of Wisconsin, and not a single Computer Science class "

"This week, the school board in Grantsburg, Wisconsin amended it's curriculum to allow the teaching of creationism." [Guardian]

"I'll probably end up going to UW-Madison..."

Better hope there's still more than one book in the university's library when you get there ;-)

BR - Well, I have a BS Metallurgical Eng. from IIT, just thought I'd pitch my alma mater.

I had a girlfriend up at UW-Madison for a while.

Nice place, I cannot comment on the quality of the education.

I liked to go to the football games. Un-em Bucky.

Later, Guy

And one more bit of advice:

When you get to college, make it a habit to go to the bursar's office (or other appropriate place) before each semester/quarter.

I found that there are literally dozens of grants/scholarships for about $100.00, no qualifying, all you have to do is fill out the paperwork.

It can significantly help with tuition, books, ....

Guy

We (Nebraska) lured the defensive coordinator away from UW (Madison?) last year. Many people want to give him back.

When I was in high school, they offered Fortran, Basic, and Pascal. I took all three, none were required. Its ludacris to have a programming class be required, thats like saying football is required.

In my high school and even my university, there was always an emphasis on sports over academia. The simple reason is, sporting events bring in monetary resources that can be added to the school's budget. Even if your team(s) suck.

I agree with the fact that you don't have to learn programming in a class environment. As a matter of fact, I started programming long before college... before high school... and before junior high school.

MIT is a good place to go, however, its not the only place. I double majored in Computer Science and Software Engineering at the University of Southern Mississippi. MIT could not give me anything that my education at USM did not provide, yes, including the salary.

Its a good idea to write code at an early age, to get a feel for it to see if you want to do it as a profession. I rather come home from work and say I had a good day, as opposed to having a six+ figure pay check.

Programming is not for everyone, but in my opinion, anyone can do it as long as they are dedicated and motivated to learn.

By the way, I was in Chicago back in March for a business trip. I'm not likely to go back, no reason really... I suppose I prefer isolation, the mountains, fresh air... etc.

"Its[sic] ludacris[sic] to have a programming class be required, thats[sic] like saying football is required."
-In my school, three years of gym are required, including Freshman- and Sophomore-gym; students are forced to play football (lest they should hurt their precious GPA) in both of them.
Again, this is the school that has *no* computer-science classes.

"I rather[sic] come home from work and say I had a good day, as opposed[sic] to having a six+ figure pay check."
-But...I want to do both!
Besides, I imagine myself living along in a decent-sized house, staying up late nights to finish the project I'm working on before the deadline comes around (an image I originally acquired from the legendary Andre LaMothe...although I believe he's married ^_^).
...That actually sounds like something I'd have a lot of fun doing. I guess I'm just weird like that.

AKhalifman@hotmail.com

Hah. Wait 'til you are married. No more late night programming and staying up for days straight working on deadlines, if you want your marriage to last. :)

-

meh - I'm really not the type to get into a serious relationship
At least, not for a while - it's a long and very personal story which I'd rather not share. :S

AKhalifman@hotmail.com