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What is wrong? Power?

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Name: Sune
Date: August 16, 2003 at 05:00:03 Pacific
OS: WinXP
CPU/Ram: XP1800+/2x256SD
Comment:

Hi, Im sorry this is such a long story, but al in all my computer is acting weird in different ways and i am not sure where to look anymore.

Lately i bought a promise RAID controller card, a very old 21" monitor, a bunch of new harddisks and a dvd-drive.

When i installed some of the new HD's suddenly my computer wouldnt start; when i pressed the power button the ligts turned on for one sec then nothing more happened. I put on an old puwer supply that i got from a 486 computer. 200W.
Then it runs again and i installed some more harddisks - but one of them was bad (bad sectors) which slowed down the whole system and (i guess) makes it harder to find the reason for my comuter being weird - i thoght it was only because of the faulty disk.

I sometimes hear a click from one of the HDs, but i dont know which one yet. I was this could be some error checking that the disk is doing. This is sometimes, but not always, followed by a short windows freeze.

Sometimes i get the error 'Delay writing failed' and sometimes the bios of either the motherboard or one of my HD controller cards does not recognise one of my HDs. Then i turn off the computer an d restart and usually the problem is gone.

Yesterday i was writing some word-docs and suddenly word freezes. I had to restart (by restart button) and then the disk containing the docs wasnt recognised. After some restarts it did again and everything looked fine. My guess is that the disk 'went down' all of a sudden.

I have been using chkdsk a lot and evewn powermax (Maxtor's utility prog) but it seems there is nothing physical wrong with any of them.

Now i have found two more PSU's one 150W and one more with 200W. The original PSU is only using the connectors to the motherboard and is therefore driving
sound card
ram
2 fans
2 HD controllers

All HDs, dvd, burner, fans etc. are driven by the two others

My system:
#Matsonic 8137c (VIA Apollo KT266A)
#Geforce2 MX-400 AGPx4, 32mb + very old 21" monitor
#2x256 SD Ram pc133
#Eicon Diva ADSL USB-Modem
#Hoontech StAudio prof. PCI sound card with external box (adc/dac2000 - 8 in 8 out)
#Promise ultra TX2 133 PCI HD controller card
#Promise Fasttrak TX2000 RAID PCI HD controller card
#DVDROM
#CDRx4 (old one)
#diskette

#HDs:
1x 6.2 gb maxtor
1x 13.2 gb IBM
2x 30 gb IBM (Not installed for the moment
2x 80 gb Maxtor 2mb
5x 120 gb Maxtor 2mb (one of them is not installed)

Do i need even more power to the motherboard? Or what else could be wrong?

Please shoot any answers and even questions are VERY welcome!

-Sune



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Response Number 1
Name: Sune
Date: August 16, 2003 at 05:47:17 Pacific
Reply:

Oops i forgot:
Amd palomino xp1800+


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Response Number 2
Name: Dave02
Date: August 16, 2003 at 06:20:17 Pacific
Reply:

You need to buy the biggest power supply you can find. 500 watt at least. Then go from there. That is a good starting point.


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Response Number 3
Name: johnoh
Date: August 16, 2003 at 06:43:02 Pacific
Reply:

I don't see above what size the original psu is.

Hard drives take 25W at peak and that's almost all off the 12V rail and since about 40% of a psu is dedicated to 12V, that means a 150W psu can handle maybe two hard drives.

If these extra psus are only driving hard drives, make sure they are up and running before you turn on the main psu. Also, many psus will not run unless their mobo connector is connected, so make sure they are actually turning on when you turn them on.

Hard drive clicks happen when power is insufficent or inconsistent. Assuming the drive is good which I assume yours are.

I'd start over and get the system running with zero or one drive, then start adding them one at a time to troubleshoot.



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Response Number 4
Name: Sune
Date: August 16, 2003 at 06:55:07 Pacific
Reply:

Thanks

This might do it. But is this one of those that does not give as much power as claimed? (im not very used to buying PSUs). It is not as expensive as the 550W PSUs I hav seen...

PowerTek TAX600P
Type: 600W Power Supply ATX
Dual Fan Design
Warranty: 2 Years


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Response Number 5
Name: jam
Date: August 16, 2003 at 07:07:21 Pacific
Reply:

1st of all...what is it that you're trying to do? You have 11 hard drives listed...you wanna connect them all at once???


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Response Number 6
Name: Sune
Date: August 16, 2003 at 07:10:32 Pacific
Reply:

Thanks johnoh (Resp #3)

My original PSU is 300W, so all in all i have an effect of (150+200+200+300=) 850W

I always turn on all the 'auxiliary' PSUs on first, then wait until i hear that they are all turned on and running at right speed before i turn on the mobo.
Those old PSUs do have their own power switches so I am 110% sure that they are running (you can feel the fan running and hear the HD/fans spinning/see the lights on dvd/cdr)

I know that HDs take around 25W, so right now I configured it this way:
300W: Mobo
200W #1: 5 HDs
200W #2: Diskette, DVD, CDR, 1 HD
150W: All fans, 2 Hds



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Response Number 7
Name: Sune
Date: August 16, 2003 at 07:20:07 Pacific
Reply:

Jam (Response Number 5)

I want to have 10 or at least 9 them connected at a time. That ought not be a problem since i have 6 ide ports.

(the 6.2 gb im going to drop sooner og later)


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Response Number 8
Name: johnoh
Date: August 16, 2003 at 08:49:03 Pacific
Reply:

psu 200W #1 is overloaded. There is about 80W of 12V power on that psu and each HD takes 25W of 12V power. See post #3.

The problem you face with the multiple supplies is the 12v rail. When you go from a 200W psu to 400W psu they do not just double each output (3.3v, 5v, 12v, etc), they put much of the increase into the 12V rail because it is understood that hard drives, vid cards, and cpus (the main power consumers in high power systems) are run primarily off the 12V rail. So by using multiple small supplies that total 850W what you really have there is a few hundred watts of 3.3v and 5v power going to waste.

There is really no way to know if a given psu is rated above its actual output. Psus vary even within the same brand and model number. I would go with your current plan of getting a huge one (like 600W) that is a good deal. You might still need one of those extra psus though. And check the 12v rail rating of the psu before you buy it. Some 600W psus might give you 30A and others 35A. You want as much amperage as possible at 12V.


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Response Number 9
Name: Sune
Date: August 16, 2003 at 09:06:31 Pacific
Reply:

#8
Thanks a lot; that was a very good answer.
Now i have something to look for


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Response Number 10
Name: Sune
Date: August 16, 2003 at 09:45:18 Pacific
Reply:

Should this be ok? It seens it delivers only 24 A on the 12V channel. But if I supply with my 300W PSU, then it ought to be OK, or what?


Model No: TAX600P

Specifications:
- 115VAC ~ 9A @ 60 Hz
- 230VAC ~ 4.5A @ 50 Hz
- +5V @ 41A
- +12V @ 24A
- +3.3V @ 28A
- -5V @ 0.5A
- -12V @ 0.8A
- +5Vsb @ 2A


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Response Number 11
Name: johnoh
Date: August 16, 2003 at 10:18:05 Pacific
Reply:

sounds good to me


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Response Number 12
Name: Sneu
Date: August 16, 2003 at 10:28:44 Pacific
Reply:


COOL!

You have been a very great help, thank you johnoh!


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Response Number 13
Name: jam
Date: August 16, 2003 at 10:56:47 Pacific
Reply:

I'm still curious as to why you're doing this...do you actually need all that storage space...or is it just to see what you can make work?


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Response Number 14
Name: Sune
Date: August 16, 2003 at 11:23:39 Pacific
Reply:

I do music and record it in up to 8 channels of 24bit/96khz. When recording and editing i was adviced to use 32bit float 'resolution' (8 empty bits). So recordings are very space consuming.

Then i use RAID so 4x120 gives me one drive at 240 GB. The fifth i regard as so called 'hot spare' so that if one of the disks in the array goes down. When this happens i would like to 'mirror' one 80gb disk with the other (soft raid 1) so that i dont have to go through hours and hours of data recovery when a disk goes down.

This gives me around half of the storage space that i bought, but time saving and safe.

Then i must admit too that i am a bit lazy and dont like to do backups on cd.

So ok I COULD do with less, but it is VERY nice to be able to have a some projects in the computer that you work on only onece in a while and not having to finish them before you do the next one. Another argument is that when building my array the 120 gb maxtor was the best price/space tradeoff. 80gb would have done just fine i guess...

A secret is i also have an ever-growing collection of mp3s (40 gigs for the moment)
:)


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Response Number 15
Name: borelli34
Date: August 16, 2003 at 11:45:09 Pacific
Reply:

Sune,

I would definitely suggest the highest watt PSU you can use if you are looking to RAID a number of drives together. Another thing that has caused this kind of behavior for me (my clients) has been loose Molex connectors. The power connector to the hard drives could have loose wires and may be causing a reset on one or more of the hard drives.

borelli34


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Response Number 16
Name: Sune
Date: August 16, 2003 at 11:52:50 Pacific
Reply:

Thanks borelli34
I will check those.
Now i will also add one more old PSU, until i get the new one...


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Response Number 17
Name: Sune
Date: August 16, 2003 at 13:48:49 Pacific
Reply:

Ok!
Now i added one more 200W PSU and the clicking noises seems to be gone.

But now i realize that my sound card is not recognized by bios (or whatever makes the IRQ-list at startup). I dont remember when i last used it so it could have been gone for a couple of days....

I removed one motherboard fan so the 300W-PSU only supplies motherboard, cpu+fan, 3xPC1, 1xAGP, 2xSDRam. But still my sound card is gone. Could it have been damaged? Is there anything i can do to try to reestablish contact?

Now I set it up this way (and ordered this 600W PSU):

300W: Mobo(cpu+fan, 3xPC1, 1xAGP, 2xSDRam)
200W #1: 3 HDs
200W #2: Diskette, DVD, CDR
200W #3: 3 HDs
150W: All fans, 2 Hds


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Response Number 18
Name: johnoh
Date: August 16, 2003 at 14:04:51 Pacific
Reply:

Try the sound card in different slots.

If your mobo has sound on board and you had it disabled to install the sound card, you may have reset the bios somewhere here in the last couple days and it got re-eneabled, and it is now conflicting with the pci sound card, so you'll want to disable it again. More likely you have an irq conflict and moving the card to a different slot will help.


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Response Number 19
Name: Sune
Date: August 16, 2003 at 14:41:53 Pacific
Reply:

Phew!
I checked the BIOS and it han not been reset. The onboard devices was still disabled.

Already a long time ago i have found the only slot where the sound card does not share with anything else.

But computers ARE strange:
I put the sound card into another PCI slot and booted. The device listing contained my sound card. Then i turned the computer off, put it back to its original slot, booted and now everything seems to work as it should!

Anyway i look forward to getting my new PSU. Right now it feels like my computer is a whole factory with no less than 5 power-buttons ;-)

And who knows what will be its next move...

I really appreciate your help; Thank you very much!


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Response Number 20
Name: Sune
Date: August 18, 2003 at 07:48:42 Pacific
Reply:

A little follow up:
My system have been stable now for a couple of days, and drives are not disappearing anymore.

Of couse i would like to add 2 more HDs, but that will have to wait until i get my new 600w PSU and i also ordered a PSU for my external soundcard box.
Think i will let the old one drive the motherboard and eventually one HD and then put all the HDs/cd/cdrw/etc. on the new one.


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