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static question

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Original Message
Name: bmustillrose
Date: November 18, 2007 at 10:38:51 Pacific
Subject: static question
OS: xp
CPU/Ram: 866/192
Model/Manufacturer: whitebox
Comment:

Hi.

A friend gave me a computer to look at with the phraze "it doesn't work".
Turns on, no post, no nothing. Tryed different psu, same result. Ram, hdd, cd & cards removed, same result.

What with school, I left this sitting there for a couple of days untill a few hours ago I figgured that I should at least put it together before I told him he'd need to get a new mobo or cpu.
At this point, we have mobo, cpu, ram, hdd and pci's, and I figgured i might aswell turn it on.

Yep, you guessed it, it worked fine. I put a keyboard and its cd drive in, turned on again and we'r back to where we started from.
Took keyboard and cd drive out, no luck.

Here comes my nice little idea:

I'm not sure how this broke, perhaps a little serdge or someone poking around in the case - cables looked very untidy. I'm thinking, what if they did something with out waring a strap and grounding themselves? Could it have been full of static and me leaving it for a few days might have let it drain a bit?

Obveously i wor a strap and was grounded everytime I took the case off, but perhaps putting the cd back in just tipped it over the edge again?
What i'm thinking of doing is leaving this for a few days and then doing a complete rebuild using a strap and a mat.
But at the end of the day, its only a piii, so i'm a little reluctant to build it all up again if its not going to work.

My question is, am I talking complete rubbish? If somethings been hit with the static bug is that it? Also, if I am correct, would letting it sit for a few days and then doing a rebuild solve the problem or would this just keep on coming back?

Chears for any info, BEN.



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Response Number 1
Name: StuartS
Date: November 18, 2007 at 11:26:39 Pacific
Reply: (edit)

Whatever the problem is its almost certainly not static. Static is only a problem when it is discharged to something with a lower potential voltage than the static charge.

The static charge build up in you. Thats why you wear a strap, to discharge static from you to ground and not through the computer which will have no static charge.

The only things that are likely to build up a static charge in computer are the fans and that is going to be so low as to be negligible and will discharge harmlessly through you is there is a potential difference.

If there was a static charge in the computer it would be you that would feel the discharge as you do sometimes when you put your car keys in the door lock.

Stuart


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Response Number 2
Name: bmustillrose
Date: November 18, 2007 at 12:11:01 Pacific
Reply: (edit)

ok well thanks for clearing that up anyway.


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Response Number 3
Name: OtheHill
Date: November 18, 2007 at 13:34:37 Pacific
Reply: (edit)

bmustillrose

Are you thinking that someone besides you may have damaged components because of static discharge? If so, that is possible but once damaged they won't mend themselves.

I would suspect the PSU. To test you only need the following components connected. MB with CPU/HS/fan, PSU, video, 1 stick RAM, monitor, KBoard. No drives of any kind connected to power or data. No external hardware. No extra add in cards like modem, sound, network, etc. Make sure the CPU fan is connected to the correct fan header.

Try something. Unplug from the wall and push the start button a few times. Now plug in and try to boot. If this works your PSU is probably defective.


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Response Number 4
Name: Tubesandwires
Date: November 18, 2007 at 14:44:38 Pacific
Reply: (edit)

Electronic components are sensitive to damage from static discharges, but that has probably got little or nothing to do with your problem. The fact that the computer sometimes works indicates your problem lies elsewhere.
If you haven't noticed static discharges from your body to something that is grounded such as to the metal of the computer case, you probably don't have a static buildup probem. Simply wearing mostly cotton clothing or clothing with a cotton content will dissapate static naturally as it occurs.

On the other hand .....
- if where you have the computer has a carpet that has no cotton or other content that grounds static naturally, it can certainly be a source of static, especially when the humidity in the room is very low, such as in the heating season if you have cold winters in your area
- vaccum cleaners produce a tremendous amount of static electricity when running and for some time afterwards, unless they have been specifically designed to be used with electronic components, or designed to disappate static (e.g. some shop vacuum systems are grounded via copper wires in the pipes/hoses) - it is recommended you don't use them at all to clean up inside your case. If you insist on vaccuuming inside your case, the case MUST be grounded, or the likely hood is high you will damage something. Some vaccums are capable of connecting the hose to blow air - you are much better off doing that, and not touching the case or mboard with anything attached to the vacuum, rather that sucking the stuff off.

The most important thing is you must disconnect the live AC source from the ATX power supply / ATX mboard whenever you fiddle with any components or connections inside the case - the ATX mboard is always powered in some places otherwise even when Windows is Shut Down or in Standby or Hibernate modes, and even if you have no drives at all installed.
If the case is plugged into a power bar, turning off the power bar removes the live AC but the case is still grounded to the AC ground if it is still pligged in. If the PS has a switch, you can use that too, but it's easy to lose track of whether it is off or on, unless the mboard or PS has an led that indicates the power supply is supplying power to the mboard, which this old mboard and PS probably doesn't have.

If this system is old enough that it has an AT power supply and AT mboard, the power switch is directly connected to the power supply and turning off the power switch on the case turns off all power to the power supply and the mboard. In that case there is an obvious large cord between the power switch and the power supply inside the case. If it is still plugged in, the case and mboard is grounded if you're concerned about static.

"At this point, we have mobo, cpu, ram, hdd and pci's, and I figgured i might aswell turn it on.

Yep, you guessed it, it worked fine. I put a keyboard and its cd drive in, turned on again and we'r back to where we started from.
Took keyboard and cd drive out, no luck."

A dead CD drive or a faulty keyboard may cause a long delay, or a delay that never ends, while booting - try them with another computer.
The most common thing that kills a CD drive is the motor can no longer spin fast enough for 1X speed, or it doesnt spin. Check for stuck down keys on the keyboard.


A common thing that can happen with ram that worked fine previously is the ram has developed a poor connection in it's slot(s).
See response 2 in this - try cleaning the contacts on the ram modules, and making sure the modules are properly seated:
http://www.computing.net/hardware/w...
This usually happens a long time after the ram was installed, but it can happen after moving the computer case from one place to another, or I've had new modules that needed to have their contacts cleaned.

Trying ram in this mboard that works in another mboard , or trying any ram you buy or have lying around, may not work - it has to be compatible with the mboard and it's chipset.
See response 5 in this for some info about ram compatibilty, and some places where you can find out what will work in your mboard for sure:
http://www.computing.net/hardware/w...
Correction to that:
Mushkin www.mushkin.com

Since this computer is old, if the above is not enough, some other things to try:
Pull off the main connector(s) from the power supply to the mboard and plug them back in - they may have a tab on one side you must squeeze to get it/them off (AT mboards/PSs have two connectors - the black wires go in the middle beside each other when you plug them back in; ATX mboards have a single 20 position connector that goes on only one way), and do the same with the power connectors to the drives.
Unplug/plug back in the wires from the case to the mboard.

It is common to un-intentionally damage IDE data cables, especially while removing them - the 80 wire ones are more fragile. What usually happens is the cable is ripped at either edge and the wires there are either damaged or severed, often right at a connector or under it's cable clamp there, where it's hard to see - if a wire is severed but it's ends are touching, the connection is intermittant.
Another common thing is for the data cable to be separated from the connector contacts a bit after you have removed a cable - there should be no gap between the data cable and the connector - if there is press the cable against the connector to eliminate the gap.

Make sure the CPU fan spins, if it has one (some PIIs have a huge heatsink), when the mboard is powered on - if it doesn't spin don't use the computer until the fan has been replaced - the cpu can burn out in a few minutes. If the cpu fan or heatsink has accumulted mung (dust, lint, etc.) on it, remove it - if it has a cpu fan, remove the fan to properly clean it's underside and the top of the heatsink. If it has a cpu fan and it makes rattling or rumbling or screeching noises, most likely to be heard when the computer is started after it has cooled to room temp, replace the fan as soon as you can - it will probably eventually stop spinning if you don't.

Failing power supplies are common and can cause your symptoms. However, the power supply in an older system like this one is less likely to be faulty than a PS in a newer computer.
When a PS is failing you may not be able to get the computer to boot every time for a while before it won't boot at all.
Check your PS.
See response 4 in this:
http://www.computing.net/hardware/w...



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Response Number 5
Name: jefro
Date: November 18, 2007 at 16:51:31 Pacific
Reply: (edit)

Cold boot possibly.

What you mean is that some components had stored energy keeping the gates at some level. Usually called quazi state. ESD damage is known to cause gate damage like that.

I read it wrong and answer it wrong too. So get off my case you peanut.


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