Name: Liandri64 Date: April 27, 2008 at 02:58:47 Pacific Subject: I have some other questions... OS: Windows 98 CPU/Ram: Pentium 100MHz/32MB RAM Model/Manufacturer: Acer Acros
Comment:
These days I got a lot of memory chips for my old computer, however, I'm unable to know the size of each chip...
Some pepole said that some chips are only used for protection, which provides no RAM. Actually I found that it is not like that.
Maybe that a SIMM that only have chips on a single side is 4MB, a SIMM that have chips on both sides is 8MB... But I have never seen a chip of 16MB and 32MB... (I only got 4x8MB chips at present).
Besides, I'm going to change a new video card, as my old Trident 9440 (32-Bit 1MB DRAM) is too old that only supports a few video formats... I don't know what kind of video cards can the motherboard support...
>> Some pepole said that some chips are only used for protection, which provides no RAM. <<
I think what they might be referring to is a parity chip. An extra chip on the module used for error checking. Not used these days as it was not a very effective method of detecting errors as multiple errors could cancel each other out.
A computer that old would be using 72 pin SIMM modules like these:
As you can see they go all the way up to 64Mbs. The number of chips on the module has little to do with the total capacity. As more bits could be put onto a single chip less and less chips were needed for the same amount of memory. However, some motherboard would only take single sided modules and some double sided. You would have to check the motherboard manual.
You would have to go to the Motherboard manufactures web site to find out what type of video cards the motherboard supports. However, putting a modern PCI video card on a motherboard that old would be a waste of money, it would never be able to work a anything near full capacity.
in response 6 I pointed you to what info I could find about your mboard.
You have only 4 SIMM slots. Mboards of that age cannot support recognizing any larger than 32mb SIMM modules, so the max you can install is probably 128mb - 4 32mb modules.
Smaller used SIMM modules are a lot easier to find because when your mboard was new, ram was relatively very expensive - e.g. it may have been $100 for 4 mb, 2 2mb modules, at the time. So larger used modules are rarer, and when 64mb modules first came out only businesses could afford to buy them, so they are the rarest.
For people who are still using an older mboard that uses only SIMMS, most are using Win 98 or later. Win 98, 98SE, and ME work very well withn 128mb, and quite adequately with 96mb. Since many old mboards are limited to installing 128mb max, most of the used 32mb modules are still being used for mboards with only 4 ram slots, and those and 16mb modules for mboards with 6 or 8 SIMM ram slots. Your Win 95 will work okay with 64mb or more ram installed.
However, you can still get used ram from lots of places, or even new 32mb or other SIMM modules from a few places, if you're willing to pay the price. Search for: SIMM ram or 72 pin ram or similar. Or look up ram on ram manufacturer's or ram distributor's web sites using Acer Acros something or other - any early Pentium model.
Your mboard probably does not support EDO ram, but usually you can use EDO ram in mboards that don't support EDO and it will be recognoized as FPM ram fine (Fast Page Mode ram, the regular type) EDO ram runs up to 15% faster than FPM ram rated the same otherwise, but the mboard must support EDO and all the modules must be EDO for the mboard to use the EDO feature.
Memory Giant doesn't have a listing for your model, but the 32mb modules here should work fine, $16, probably new?: http://www.memorygiant.com/index.cf...
NOTE that there were many old mboards that had problems recognizing 16mb modules unless they were certain ones, so you should avoid buying 16mb ones, and as far as I know there is no problem with oother sizes bein recognized. Generally, the more chips on a higher capacity module, the more likely it will work in your old mboard.
"Some pepole said that some chips are only used for protection, which provides no RAM"
I additional to what StuartS said about parity ram modules, some mboards could support regular or parity ram modules, some could not support parity modules. If the mboard supports it, all the modules must be parity in order for the bios to use the oparity feature. As StuartS says, they have one extra chip for the parity feature - e.g. a non-parity module may have 8 chips, a parity module 9. It's almost always an odd number of chips if it's a parity module, unless the there chips on both sides of the module (e.g. 9 each side) or the chips are stacked in pairs at each position on one side (e.g. 18 chips, 9 pairs). They were always more expensive, hence there are a lot fewer parity used ones.
Parity modules have ram too, it's just the one chip that adds the parity feature that doesn't contribute to the total useful ram on the module.
There are some modules that have no ram at all on them.
Some mboards much newer than yours use RIMM ram modules - all the ram slots must be filled with matched pairs of ram modules, but a pair of modules can be "dummies" that merely bridge the slot contact circuits and they have no ram on thge modules - but of course, at least some ram must be installed. DDR ram made RIMM ram obsolete, so no new mboards have used RIMM ram for quite a while.
The size of SIMM modules is hard to identify by looking at them, unless they have a label stating the size on them, or if they are a brand name module that have a ID string on them that can still be looked up, or have a brand name system part number on them you can look up. Ram compatibilty is much less complicated with SIMM modules. If two modules look identical, have the same number of chips, they will probably work as a pair for sure in the proper slots - e.g. your mboard has Bank 0 and Bank 1 - you must install pairs of modules of the same size in each bank. If the individual chips on each module have the same markings, and the number of chips are the same, a pair of non-identical SIMM modules will probably work fine too used together.
If all else fails, you can look up the specs for the individual ram chips. They are rated in bits, not bytes, and organized on the chip in certain ways - e.g. 2M x 16 is 2 megabits X 16 = 2 X 1,048,576 bits (or 1 million bits?) X 16. There are 8 bits to a byte for non-parity modules, 9 bits to a byte for parity modules, but the 9th bit can't be used for data. So the total number of bits on all the chips on a non-parity module divided by 8 per byte, divided by 1,024 bytes per kb, or 1,048,576 bytes per mb (1,024 kb), is the capacity of the module. ......
As far as a video card goes, you can use a newer PCI card, but the limits you will run into are the newer the card is, the faster the minimum cpu speed it requires, your mboard can only support a max 166mhz cpu speed, and many newer cards have no drivers for Win 95 (you list Win 98 above, but you said in your other thread you installed Win 95 on the 10gb drive). The more ram on the old video card, the higher resolution it will support. Perhaps an old S3 card would do you fine.
I wonder if it could support 75/85Hz at a higher resolution and higher color... I could barely override the refresh rate of my old Trident 9440(1MB) with SDD up to
800x600, 69Hz, 65536(16-Bit) Colors
Any refresh rates beyond this will cause problems. My old 1MB chip can only support 800x600 at 16-Bit and 640x480 at 24-Bit. (No 32-Bit modes)
And who can tell me about the latest video card that is supported by Windows 95 (OSR 2.5)?
You can get higher settings available in Windows for some old Trident cards if you manually load Trident Super VGA drivers in Display - Settings - Advanced - Adapter in Win 98 or 98SE - I assume that's there in Win 95 too, since many Trident cards came out long before Win 95 was released.
Forcing Win 95, or any Windows version, to try to use higher vertical refresh rates than the card video chipset or onboard video chipset was designed for is a risky gamble - if you get a display at all, it can certainly damage the card sooner or later, or your monitor if it wasn't meant to handle that.
You would see very little if any difference on this old mboard anyway with it's slow cpu, even if you did tweak the vertical refresh rate higher.
Tweaking the vertical refresh rate will not get you higher resolutions - it affects the rate at which frames of graphics can be displayed - you will not notice the difference unless you play games or other video that looks better if the refresh rate is higher, and your monitor must also support the refresh rate - lots of older monitors are desgned for no higher than 72HZ or so. (look up the specs for your monitor model)
By the way, what's the speed of your cpu?
The more ram on the card, the more likely you have higher resolutions and higher numbers of colors available in Windows. The vertical refresh rate is primarily determined by the video chipset used, not the amount of ram on the card.
"...the latest video card that is supported by Windows 95 (OSR 2.5)?"
There are lots of used 4mb or 8mb PCI video cards out there that probably have Win 95 drivers. There may be some video cards listed in a "Hardware Compatibilty List" for Win 95 on the Microsoft site.
Other than that, you would have to look up the specs and the drivers available for whatever card you were thinking of using.
E.g. this list of drivers for various Trident chipset cards lists some cards much newer than yours, and some have Win 95 drivers (Win 98 original version drivers are often the same as Win 95 drivers; Win98SE and up drivers are often different and can't be used with Win 95/Win 98 original version): http://www.helpdrivers.com/ingles/l...
BUT many of those cards require a minimum much faster cpu than you can install on this mboard, so you still must look at the minimum requirements for the card or it's video chipset.
AND you must often have to install a higher DirectX version in Windows than that built into the operating system in order to support the drivers for newer cards properly (a newer DirectX version is available from the Microsoft site - you may NOT be able to load the default, DirectX 9.x, for Win 95 - see the minimum requirements). Older cards don't need DirectX at all.
Windows 95 will support any video card that has windows 95 drivers. You should have no problem finding a 4-meg card that will work with 95 since they're from that era. Personally I stay away from Trident controller cards. S3 cards are good and drivers are easy to find.
If you can't find anything locally, tell me what you want. I probably have it.
Post back what is written on the SIMM chips if you want to know their capacity.
Post back your motherboard model number. Otherwise there's no way to tell if the cyrix will work as they usually require different voltages and sometimes FSB (although there's not going to be much of a difference with your existing cpu).
The video and sound cards you got will work. These drivers:
That's fine. www.s3graphics.com has the video drivers; start here: http://www.s3graphics.com/drivers.jsp If you're not sure which S3 chipset you have, there are two utilities there that will identify which one you have if the card is installed or if it is built into the mboard.
If on the above page you select 4. Download drivers - Legacy Discrete you go here: http://www.s3graphics.com/en/resour... Look for the model numbers that match those listed on your S3 chip. For Trio3D drivers, look at the Trio3D family list.
Legacy drivers archive: http://www.s3graphics.com/en/resour... For Trio3D drivers, there are two possible downloads, depending on which chip model numbers you have.
Follow any installation instructions you can find, and/or follow those included with the download. You may need to re-set your Display Properties to some lesser Setting before installing the drivers.
"Creative Labs ES1371"
It may be okay, if it will work fine with your slow cpu
Look for SBxxxx or CTxxxx printed on the card
"Cyrix 686 6x86-P166... (There are some words that can't be seen clearly) 133MHz 3.3V(016)"
See my first post this thread (response 4). There may be info about how to set it in the full manual I found. If not it should work set to that voltage, and to the standard jumper settings for 133mhz - it runs at 166mhz set to those settings.
Be careful prying off the other cpu - a little bit at a time all over.
There is a mark on one corner of the cpu that must line up with a mark near a socket corner so that the pins line up with the holes - see the full manual for full details.
"Unfortunately the CPU I've got is not functioning normally."
Which one - the original one or the Cyrix?
Some old mboards may not support recognizing the Cyrix cpus unless that have a bios version that recognizes them. Look at the full manual I pointed you to - if it doesn't mention supporting Cyrix cpus, then yours can't recognize them either - your model is older What are your symptoms?
" My SDD says the graphics card is S3 Trio64V+ 2MB."
I was just looking at the specs for another system with S3 Trio 64V+ video - it has 1mb, upgradable to 2mb. Where did you get the info it was supposed to have 4mb? If 2mb is more than the Trident card has it will still be an improvement.
Actually 2mb for a graphics card worked fine for me... At least it supports 85Hz (Probably it is compatible with modern monitors that can support such a rate) without any screen problems...
The Cyrix CPU sometimes crashes, and when booted, JEMMEX said that "System memory found in C800-EFFF, region might be in use."
It was a 166MHz processor, but because of that, I removed it and reinstalled the old one. Probably at least 64MB RAM is required for using Pentium/166MHz... And in that case I have to have another look for a functioning P133 CPU in the old market...
I've tried new the sound card. It was an Ensoniq AudioPCI ES1371. However, without an internal FM Synth, Adlib music/sounds of games such as Wolf3D sound a bit funny...
I wonder if someone had ever created an true OPL2/OPL3 waveset (OPL2/OPL3 emulators are now everywhere!) for AudioPCI... Maybe this could be the only way to make the FM sounds just like what it used to be...
By the way, I wonder if I'm possible to install my previous ESS 688 AudioDrive but do not activate it... I hope the old BIOS would support PCI/ISA audio switch, I mean, AudioPCI is disabled while ESS 688 is present and ESS 688 is disabled while AudioPCI is present.
"The Cyrix CPU sometimes crashes, and when booted, JEMMEX said that "System memory found in C800-EFFF, region might be in use."
As I said...
"Some old mboards may not support recognizing the Cyrix cpus unless that have a bios version that recognizes them. Look at the full manual I pointed you to - if it doesn't mention supporting Cyrix cpus, then yours can't recognize them either - your model is older."
Obviously it recognizes the cpu, but maybe not properly.
You could try loading bios defaults in Setup, but it may not help.
"Probably at least 64MB RAM is required for using Pentium/166MHz... "
There is no minimum ram requirement for the cpu, as long as you have at least some ram installed. There are minumum recommended ram requirements for the operating system, many programs, and some devices such as sound chipsets. Win 95 works quite well with 64mb or more, but it will work less well with less. Win 98, 98SE, and ME work very well with 128mb or more, work adequately with 96mb, but work less well with less.
You could run an older Dos operating system on this computer with just 1 or 2 mb of ram installed.
Win 95 and up can support having more than one audio chipset connected to the computer, but only one can be active (used) at a time. When you have two audio chipsets, and have installed the drivers for the chipsets, the last one installed or detected becomes the default, but you can change that. In Control Panel - Multimedia - Audio tab you can change the Preferred Playback and Preferred Recording device by selecting the appropriate chipset when you have more than one audio chipset installed.(The correct sound drivers must be installed).
Under the Midi tab the FM module is xxxx Music Synth If you want to test it..... If you have DirectX installed, go to Start - Run - type: Dxdiag (press OK) Look under the Music tab. If you have the FM module and the correct drivers for it and no resource conflicts, you will be able to play Test Direct Music.
Did you find any CTxxxx or SBxxxx model number printed on the Creative sound card? The drivers you need often vary on Creative cards, despite them possibly using the same main chip. Music and sound effects often sound different depending on what chipset is involved - there's nothing you can do about that.
JEMMEX is a Dos expanded memory manager. http://www.japheth.de/Jemm.html You should NOT be using a Dos memory manger with Win 95 and up. If you were using it so you could play old Dos games or programs, you probably don't need it - I have been able to get many old Dos games and programs to work fine in Win 98SE with a liitle tweaking using the support already in Win 98SE, and the same should apply to Win 98 and Win 95. E.g. try using the MsDos Prompt selection in the Programs list to run Dos programs or games. Tweak the Properties of the resulting shortcut if you need to.
The problem is that I'm worrying about the ISA-PCI Conflict (maybe possible). Because the old Acer BIOS can adjust whether the IRQ for the audio is used by ISA or not... And if the AudioPCI's legacy device (which also uses the same resource of the system) is active while ES688 is active, however, a resource conflict will be likely happen...
Unfortunately, I'm not going to ask these questions now, because I have completely given up upgrading it. The motherboard is TOO old to install a newer CPU, even Pentium 133... My current plan to revive it is to install all the parts of the computer into a newer motherboard... (I have got 4 16MB SIMMs recently, but now, it seemed to be completely useless when I put all the parts into a newer motherboard). I wonder if the modern motherboards could support such old hardware, and also ISA cards... If not, maybe I should check when these hardware are no longer supported by motherboards, and check the motherboards before that time...
"The motherboard is TOO old to install a newer CPU, even Pentium 133"
See the beginning of response 4. Response 6 of the other thread reveals your mboard supports up to and including 166mhz pentuim cpus.
"I wonder if the modern motherboards could support such old hardware, and also ISA cards..."
Obviously, the mboard must have a cpu socket compatible with the cpu (Socket 5 or 7; the latter no longer available after about 2000), ram slots for SIMM ram (none do made after the late 90's, approx. 98), and ISA slots (no longer commonly available after about 2000, but some new ones could still be obtained with them as of a couple of years ago.) The last socket 7 mboards are "super socket 7", are rated to use max 100mhz SDram or FPM, or EDO DIMMs (PC100 if SDram), but certain 133mhz (PC133 if SDram) modules can work, have a max 100mhz fsb but some can be slightly overclocked, and most had some ISA slots - you can still install pentium cpus on them (and have the fsb set to 66mhz, and you don't need more than 66mz - PC66 if SDram - ram in that case) but you are much better off using K6-2 or K6-III cpus on them (they run at up to 550mhz, some mboards/cpus easily overclock to 600mhz or a little more).
SIMM ram compatibilty isn't generally a problem with matched pairs of the same size, except 64mb ram (quite rare) was supported by very few mboards, and some mboards that do support SIMM ram have specific requirements about which ram slots single or double sided ram (ram chips on one or both sides) can be installed in. Singled sided ram can be used in pairs in any stated pair of simm slots, except sometimes you must install ram in certain slots first if you're not installing ram in all of them, and double sided pairs may only be recognized properly in certain slots (e.g. they may be seen, but as half their size). That info is in the mboard manual.
It's possible to get any mboard working, but it can take a lot of effort if it's really old, and most people don't even bother messing with mboards as old as yours. Mboards and computers of this age are mostly being thrown away these days, and you are better off messing with something made after about 2000.
It must be pretty old if it won't even take a 133. You can usually tell what it'll handle by looking at the FSB and multiplier jumpers on the motherboard. The FSB will usually be 66. Then a 2X multiplier will give you a 133, 2.5X a 166, and 3X a 200. Most older boards don't have a specific 3.5X for a 233 but some bios' will give a 233 speed with a 1.5X multiplier when it's seen as an MMX cpu--which all 233's are.
Yeah, I didn't recall any of his specific details since it had been a few weeks since the last posting. So my comments were just the basics for determining the fastest cpu possible on most P-I motherboards.
Actually I fount the P166 I got is working fine, but the memory chip I've got was a bit wrong...
Copying files and reading files will no longer damage the hard disk data as it was... but when booting Win98 it says "Invalid VxD Call at device 3, service B...", and booting Win95 it simply says "Windows Protection Error."
When trying to boot on Safe Mode the HIMEM said that there was an unreliable XMS memory at 0051611C.
Is there any way to reserve that unreliable or damaged memory area, or I have to use the older ones?
The himem.sys message about unreliable memory is the RAM, not the hard drive or cpu or whatever else you may be thinking about. You can't isolate the problem as you would a bad spot on the hard drive. You have to replace the bad ram stick. The bad ram could be the reason for the 95/98 errors when they try to boot.
See response 2 in this - try cleaning the contacts on the ram modules, and making sure the modules are properly seated: http://www.computing.net/hardware/w...
If you do a ram test, do that AFTER having tried cleaning the contacts and making sure the ram is seated properly - otherwise any errors found may be FALSE. If the ram is incompatible with the chipset, it will likely FAIL a ram test - that is NOT a true indication of the ram being faulty - there is probably nothing wrong with it, and it will pass the test if installed in a mboard it is compatible with.
If you want to try a memory diagnostic utility that takes a lot less time to run a full pass than memtest86 does, this one is pretty good - Microsoft's Windows Memory Diagnostic: http://oca.microsoft.com/en/windiag... It can be toggled to do a standard or a more comprehensive set of tests - use the latter one. A few of the tests are intentionally slower.
As I've said in this thread at least twice, SIMM ram compatibilty isn't generally a problem....... but you might have problems if the modules in each pair of the same size in specific slots are not identical - they should look identical, have the same chips on them with the same labelling.
Some mboards must have the ram in certain slots if you are not filling all the ram slots. To rule out that possibilty, you should install a matched pair in Bank 0 first if you have only two modules http://www.uktsupport.co.uk/acer/mb...
If you have EDO ram, all of it must be EDO in order for the EDO feature to work. If you don't have EDO ram, or if you're not sure (EDO is almost always specified on a label on the module if it does support it, but the label may be missing because it fell off) make sure EDO support is not turned on in the bios Setup - in theory the bios will ignore that setting if all the ram is not EDO, but you never know for sure with older bioses.
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