Help me resurrect a throw-away MS-6714 VER:1

November 26, 2010 at 03:29:26
Specs: Dont know yet
I'm a beginner.
Got this throw-away computer. I want to learn to fix it cheap as possible.
I turned the power on. The screen is blank (black).
What's my next step?

Motherboard: MS-6714 VER:1


See More: Help me resurrect a throw-away MS-6714 VER:1

Report •


#1
November 26, 2010 at 06:08:35
First thing you need to do is to open the case and verify all the required components are present.

This is a tower type computer?


Report •

#2
November 26, 2010 at 06:49:40
Required components(cpu and heatsink, ram) .When u turn on the system do u hear fans spinning or beeps? Also remove all un-necessary component and leave only cpu+heatsink, a stick of ram, keyboard, v-card(if u don't have onboard video), psu and try to start the system.

Report •

#3
November 26, 2010 at 06:59:53
Yay! Thanks!
Yes it's a tower.
Opened the case.
It has no hard drive.
It has a MS-6714 VER:1 motherboard with 1GB UNB PC3200 CL3 RAM, integrated sound card, stiffy drive, CD WR drive, power supply and two fans.
I pushed the power button and the LED's and fans work.

What is a compatible hard drive to get?


Report •

Related Solutions

#4
November 26, 2010 at 07:20:29
A hard drive is not required to order for the computer to POST. I suggest you verify the existing hardware is good before buying a hard drive.

Do you hear any beeps when you start the computer? Do you see any sign of life on the monitor?

What is a stiffy drive?

You didn't mention anything about any video adapter. Do you have a monitor to connect to the tower? Do you see a place to connect it?

It doesn't appear there is integrated video included on that board.

Is a processor and heat sink/fan also present?


Report •

#5
November 26, 2010 at 08:15:31
What is a stiffy drive?

A floppy drive in a state of excitement!

Sorry, couldn't resist it.

Stuart


Report •

#6
November 26, 2010 at 08:36:08
StuartS

That is the first thing that came to my mind too. That said, the OP stated they are a beginner so I wondered where they picked up that name. From the user name I assume the poster is located in South Africa.


Report •

#7
November 26, 2010 at 15:13:13
Thanks kuwese!

I checked for a cpu, heatsink and ram - it's all there.
When I turned on the system I heard and saw the two fans spinning, but I heard no beeps, only "clickety-click-wrrrrrrrrrrrr" which I guess is the CD WR drive.
What do you view as unnecessary components to remove?
According to http://www.eprom.com/home/Microstar... it seems that I may have integrated graphics, but how can I be sure?


Report •

#8
November 26, 2010 at 15:17:43
:-) Good one Stuart! Haha!

Thanks OtheHill.

Ja this is South Africa so better not to say "floppy" around here these days as it could be considered discriminative if taken wrongly.

Here in South Africa the 3½ inch floppy disks were called stiffy disks or stiffies, perhaps because they had a stiffer casing than the 8 inch and 5¼ inch forms.
The 8 inch and 5¼ inch floppy disks were called floppies because they were more floppy.

Yes I am a very beginner so thanks for the help.
That's why I took so long to reply because I first had to go learn a few computer terms to get an idea of what you're talking about.

Thanks for the advice.
Opened the case. Pushed the power button. No beeps, only a "clickety-click-wrrrrrrrrrrrr" sound (which I guess is the CD WR) and then only the sound of the two fans.
Yes I have a monitor to connect to the tower and there is a place to connect it.
No sign of life on the screen other than "Check signal".
According to http://www.eprom.com/home/Microstar... it seems that I may have integrated graphics, but I am not convinced about that yet.

There is a processor under one of the two fans.
I see one heat sink.


Report •

#9
November 26, 2010 at 15:33:04
According to the link you provided above you do have integrated graphics. The suffix after the MS6714 indicate what else is included. In this case the G would indicate integrated graphics. Are you sure that is the exact model number.

You can tell if you have integrated graphics this way. If the VGA port is attached directly to the motherboard you have integrated. If you are connecting the monitor to a card that is inserted into an expansion slot further down on the board then you are using add in graphics.

With the computer unplugged try snapping the RAM in and out 4 or 5 times. Only insert on stick to start.

When attempting to start does the heat sink fan spin? That fan must be connected to the header marked CPU fan. Listen for any audible beeps.


Report •

#10
November 26, 2010 at 20:45:13
If you have both a video port for onboard video, and a video port on a card in a slot space, you must plug the monitor into the video port on the card in a slot space - most mboards will produce no video from the onboard video port when a video card is installed in an AGP (or PCI-E X16) card slot.
......

It is easy to test for incompatible ram that has caused your mboard to fail to boot.

Make sure you have a speaker or speakers or the equivalent connected to the mboard so you can hear mboard beeps (see your mboard manual if you need to).
Remove the AC power to the case/power supply.
Remove all the ram.
Restore AC power.
Try to boot.
If nothing else is wrong, you will get no video but you will hear a pattern of beeps that indicate no ram is installed, or a ram problem.
E.g. for an Award bios or a bios based on one, that's often a beep of about a half second, silence for a half second, a beep of about a half second, silence for a half second, continuously.
.....

Old MSI mboards like your model are more likely to have this problem....

Some mboards develop this problem - electrolytic capacitors were installed on them that were not properly made, and they fail eventually - the mboard manufacturer didn't know they were improperly made at the time the mboard was made.

Open up your case and examine the mboard to see if you have bad capacitors, and/or other findable signs of mboard damage .

This was the original bad capacitor problem - has some example pictures.
History of why the exploding capacitors and which mboard makers were affected:
http://members.datafast.net.au/~dft...

What to look for, mboard symptoms, example pictures:
http://www.badcaps.net/pages.php?vid=5
Home page that site
- what the problem is caused by
- he says there are STILL bad capacitors on more recent mboards.
http://www.badcaps.net/

Pictures of blown capacitors, other components, power supplies, Athlon cpu's, etc.:
http://www.halfdone.com/Personal/Jo...


Report •

#11
November 27, 2010 at 13:54:24
Othehill

I spent lank time looking at pictures of blown capacitors, other components, power supplies, cpu's, etc: that Tubesandwires referred me to at http://www.halfdone.com/Personal/Jo... .

Thanks for the info on how to tell if I have integrated graphics
My motherboard is not the exact model as in the picture from http://www.eprom.com/home/Microstar... but it was the closest I found to my model. I did not find any specs for my mother board - it must be really old.

My board has a blue sticker on a little square thing next to the PCI slots marked 845GVICH4.
I assume then that the G indicates integrated graphics. Yes, the VGA port is attached directly to the motherboard, so there we have it - I have integrated. Thanks. Yay, I'm learning a lot.

Yes, the heat sink fan is connected to the header marked CPUFAN1.

I unplugged the computer and snapped the RAM (1GB UNB PC3200 CL3) in and out 5 times. Only one stick was inserted because that's all I got with the computer (the other slot is empty).

Having done this, I attempted to start and yes, the heat sink fan spun.

Then I heard repetitive 5 second long beeps.
Then I took the RAM out, as Tubesandwires suggested (#10), and after I turned the power on there was no beep(s).
Then I put it back, turned power on, and no beep(s).
Then I put the RAM into the other DDR DIMM slot, turned on the power and there was no beep(s).
Then I took the 1G RAM out, inserted DDR 400 CL2.5 from another computer, turned power on and heard no beep(s).
Then I took it out, turned the power on and there was no beep(s).

I put the 1G RAM stick back into the previous slot, turned the power on and there was no beep(s).

Now I am lank confused.


Report •

#12
November 27, 2010 at 14:05:30
Tubesandwires

Thanks for the link to the pictures. I spent lank time looking at them.

On this motherboard there is no video card installed in a slot space, but I will remember the info you taught me for future. Thanks!

I learned from Othehill (#9) that if the model number has a G in the suffix, then it has an integrated graphics card - my motherboard has it.

Thanks for the links on capacitors.

Following Othehill's advice I unplugged the computer and snapped the RAM stick (1GB UNB PC3200 CL3) in and out 5 times. Then I turned the power on and I heard repetitive 5 second long beeps.

Following your instructions I tested for incompatible ram - I removed the RAM, tried to boot and there was no beep(s).
Then I put it back, turned power on, and no beep(s).
Then I put the RAM into the other DDR DIMM slot, turned on the power and there was no beep(s).
Then I took the 1G RAM out, inserted DDR 400 CL2.5 from another computer, turned power on and heard no beep(s).
Then I took it out, turned the power on and there was no beep(s).

I put the 1G RAM stick back into the previous slot, turned the power on and there was no beep(s).

I wonder why it beeped since I snapped the ram in and out, but didn't beep since I removed the RAM, and even after repeating the snapping thing again.


Report •

#13
November 27, 2010 at 16:08:40
Below is a link for BIOS POST codes. You may be able to identify the BIOS type by reading the name on the chips on the board. The main players are Award, AMI, Phoenix.

http://www.computerhope.com/beep.ht...


Report •

#14
November 28, 2010 at 04:32:26
Othehill

Thx, now I know how to identify the BIOS type :)

I read the name Phoenix Bios D888, checked the beep codes at the link http://www.computerhope.com/beep.ht... , and my computer's beep code was not listed there.

I found the following at http://discuss.extremetech.com/foru... :

"One continuous beep isn't an officially listed Phoenix beep code but I know of several instances of this occurring. In at least one case, the solution was to reseat the CPU."

Anonymous in 2004 at http://discuss.extremetech.com/foru... had the same thing as I have - they wote:
"Thanx again for you post and the links. I looked them all over but found nothing that quite fit my situation. All the beep codes listed are a series of whatever and this one is just as I said, 1 beep every 4 seconds going on and on and on . . . . . . . .Kinda weird!"

They do not mention whether they fixed the problem, but at least I know now I'm not the only one who got those long beeps :)

I could have been confused yesterday about the order in which I did things yesterday, so I started all over again today :
1) I snapped the 1G RAM 5 times - no beep.
2) Then I took the 1G RAM out - repetitive 5 second beeps.
3) Then I put the 1G RAM back - no beeps.
4) Then I took it out again - repetitive 5 second beeps.
5) Then I put the 1G RAM back again - no beeps.
6) Then I took it out again - repetitive 5 second beeps.
7) Then I put another stick (512 DDR400) into the slot - no beeps.
8) Then I took it out - repetitive 5 second beeps.
9) Then I put the 1G RAM into the other slot - no beeps.
10) Then I took it out - repetitive 5 second beeps.

My concusion: When it has no RAM stick(s) in the slot(s), I get repetitive 5 second beeps.


Report •

#15
November 28, 2010 at 04:57:34
Tubesandwires

The capacitors appeared clean and I saw no bulging and disfigurement.

I think I was confused yesterday when I checked things, so
I repeated what you suggested and took the RAM out as follows :

1) I snapped the 1G RAM 5 times - no beep.
2) Then I took the 1G RAM out - repetitive 5 second beeps.
3) Then I put the 1G RAM back - no beeps.
4) Then I took it out again - repetitive 5 second beeps.
5) Then I put the 1G RAM back again - no beeps.
6) Then I took it out again - repetitive 5 second beeps.
7) Then I put another stick (512 DDR400) into the slot - no beeps.
8) Then I took it out - repetitive 5 second beeps.
9) Then I put the 1G RAM into the other slot - no beeps.
10) Then I took it out - repetitive 5 second beeps.

My concusion: When it has no RAM stick(s) in the slot(s), I get repetitive 5 second beeps.

I read the name Phoenix Bios D888 on a chip on my motherboard.

This beep code is not listed at http://www.computerhope.com/beep.ht... .

According to http://pcsupport.about.com/od/fixth... "one continuous beep isn't an officially listed Phoenix beep code but they know of several instances of this occurring. In at least one case, the solution was to reseat the CPU."

Anonymous in 2004 at http://discuss.extremetech.com/foru... had the same thing as I have - they wote:
"Thanx again for you post and the links. I looked them all over but found nothing that quite fit my situation. All the beep codes listed are a series of whatever and this one is just as I said, 1 beep every 4 seconds going on and on and on . . . . . . . .Kinda weird!"

They do not mention whether they fixed the problem, but at least I know now I'm not the only one who got those long beeps.

So now I wonder what I should do next.


Report •

#16
November 28, 2010 at 05:37:26
Are you sure you know a long beep from a short one?

Check the clear CMOS jumper to verify it is set in the run position. The normal position is for the jumper to be on pins 1 & 2. Clear CMOs on pins 2 &3. There should be markings on the ciruit board indicating the clear CMOS jumper. Mark clrcmos sometimes. Only three pins total.

If any USB ports are wired to USB headers disconnect them by removing the connector/s. I am referring to any front or rear case USB ports, not the integrated USB ports that are part of the motherboard. If there happens to be a card reader in a bay disconnect it.

If none of that works then the last ditch effort would be to remove the board from the case and bench test it with minimal hardware. Look at the link below for more on that.

http://www.techsupportforum.com/har...


Report •

#17
November 28, 2010 at 07:35:39
Othehill

Hey first I had to go learn what CMOS is - this is my first time ever opening a box and fiddling in it. Now I more or less have an idea of what CMOS is.
I do not see markings on the circuit board indicating the clear CMOS jumper, only three pins marked JBAT1 with a little green plastic thing stuck onto it -
Is this plastic green thing the jumper ?
Must I take it out and put it on the other pins ?


Report •

#18
November 28, 2010 at 08:39:37
Go here and get the right manual for your mboard, then look in the manual for the Cmos jumper info:

http://www.msi.com/index.php?func=s...

Click on the underlined model names to see the full support page for them. Look at the specs and the picture of the mboard. When you find what seems to be the right one, click on the link for the manual.
If the manual loads on the screen, when it has ffinsihed loading, click on the floppy icon at left in the top bar and choose a location to save it to.


Report •

#19
November 28, 2010 at 09:04:49
The four item in the list appears to be the correct file. If you click on CPU support the MS-6714 will show.

Report •

#20
November 29, 2010 at 13:10:50
Tubesandwire

Thx for finding the link for the correct manuel for me ! I'm so happy I have it now :)

Can one test POST without a monitor ?


Report •

#21
November 29, 2010 at 13:33:22
Othehill

Thx for helping downloading the correct manual - I'm so happy I have it now :)

Yay so now I am sure where the CMOS jumper is. It is presently on pins 1 & 2. According to the manual this is the "Keep Data" position.
QUESTION 1: Is the "Keep Data" position the same as which you describe as the "run position" ?

According to the manual pin 2 & 3 is the "Clear Data" position.

QUESTION 2: Must I keep it on pin 1 & 2, or did you mean that I must move it to pin 2 & 3 ?

I disconnected the USB connector that is wired from the front case USB port, from the USB header.

There were no card readers in any bays.

Your previous question - Am I sure I know a long beep from a short one?
I call a 5 second long beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep a LONG beep.


Report •

#22
November 30, 2010 at 13:30:53
Tubesandwire

Can one test POST without a monitor ?


Report •

#23
November 30, 2010 at 14:49:56
You can't tell what is happening without a monitor.

The beeps are not that different. Not 5 seconds for long.

You have the CMOS jumper in the run position when on 1 & 2.


Report •

#24
November 30, 2010 at 15:23:11
The mboard's bios produces a mboard error beep or pattern of beeps, other than the normal short beep you get when nothing is wrong, when something isn't right, to give you a crude indication of what has gone wrong during the POST (Power On Self Test) even if you have no video. The only time I can remember a long beep like you describe, it started not right away while booting but within a few seconds, it was caused by the ram not being seated properly, and the same mboard did not do that when no ram was installed.

The notch in the contact edge of the ram module must line up with the bump in the slot , otherwise the module is backwards in it's slot, and at least one of the two latches at the end of the ram slot cannot be placed against the ends of the module, unless one is dumb enough to press down hard enough the bend the mboard.

I'ts possible someone has at one time or another installed one or more ram modules backwards in one or more ram slots on this mboard - they won't go all the way down in the slot on both ends in that case, but if that was the case and they tried to boot the computer with at least one module backwards, the backwards module AND the ram slot it was in is fried instantly, and in that case, you can see damage in the ram slot the backwards module was in, and if the backwards module is still there, you can also see physical damage on the contacts on the module.
Use good lighting to examine the ram slots if the contacts on the module appear to look fine - if you see damaged or missing (they were vaporized) contacts, and possibly black carbon deposits and places where the plastic in the slot was melted, that ram slot can never be used again. If you DO see that, you MAY be able to get the mboard to work with good ram in good ram slots, if you clean up the damaged ram slot(s) - remove all carbon, scrape away plastic that bridges contacts, etc., etc.

You could also take a close look at the ram module, especial at it's top, to see if any chips have become detached from where they're supposed to be firmly soldered - that can happen if someone has dropped the module, or if somone pushed down on a chip rather than the module card if the chips are right at the top.


Report •

#25
December 2, 2010 at 14:50:48
12:51 AM

Othehill

Hey thanks, you guys are so kind responding to me down here in South Africa ! It means a lot to this girl :-)

Looking back as from my first question, I can see how much I have learned through you guys already and just how little I knew when I started off - it's kinda funny now looking at some of my questions then :)

OK so yes I have the CMOS jumper in the run position - on 1 & 2.

So this is what happened in the mean time :

I had to first go learn some more computer terms and definitions for my first ever computer fixing attempt.
Yay, this is exiting!

I saw that - without a monitor a bench test wont reveal much other than whether or not
- I get power
- fan(s) spin
- optical drive(s) open/close
- lights come on
- I hear beep(s).

And after reading a bit on the internet, I realized that without a monitor, and without the aid of diagnostic tools, resolving computer hardware issues & problems would remain a trial and error process.

I learned that without a monitor, with a speaker connected to the mainboard (so I can hear mainboard beeps), the mainboard's BIOS (Basic Input/Output System) produces a normal short beep when nothing is wrong, and an error beep or pattern of beeps when something isn't right to give a crude indication of what has gone wrong during the POST (Power On Self Test) - in my case a repetitive 5 second long beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep whenever I remove the RAM and power on the computer, and no beep whenever I replace the RAM and power on the computer.

I learned from you that a hard drive is not required to order for the computer to POST (Power On Self Test), so it made sense to me to verify that the existing hardware is good before considering getting a hard drive.

So as a "bush 'mechanic' " without a monitor and without diagnostic tools, I reached the following conclusion :
1. The capacitors appear fine - no signs of electrolyte oozing out and of bulging and disfigurement.
2. The following essential mainboard components are in place and well connected and seated:
- PSU (Power Supply Unit)
- CPU (Central Processing Unit) and heatsink and fans,
- a stick of RAM (Random Access Memory).
3. The mainboard has integrated graphics.
4. It powers on and the fans spin nicely and lights come on.
5. The RAM stick shows no physical signs of damage (such as physical damage on the contacts on the module, and chips that have become detached from where they're supposed to be firmly soldered - if someone dropped the module, or if someone pushed down on a chip rather than the module card).
6. The RAM slot shows no physical signs of damage [such as damaged or missing (vaporized) contacts, and black carbon deposits, and places where the plastic in the slot was melted].

So to me the beeping error message from my MS-6714 mainboard indicates that at least the power supply, motherboard, CPU and memory card have some functionality left.
So I disconnected my working computer's monitor and connected it to this thrown-away MS-6714 computer to see if the display card still have some functionality left.

Yay, this time there was life on the monitor up to the following point :

" Verifying DMI Pool Data ............
Boot from CD : Failure ...
DISK BOOT FAILURE, INSERT SYSTEM DISK AND PRESS ENTER "

QUESTION : What should I do next?

Once again THANKS for showing so much patience with me as such a beginner - I appreciate it.


Report •

#26
December 2, 2010 at 15:27:57
1:28 AM

Tubesandwire

Wow thanks for all the detailed info ! You guys are so kind responding to me down here in South Africa ! It means a lot ! :-)
As I wrote to Othehill a little earlier :

Looking back as from my first question, I can see how much I have learned through you guys already and just how little I knew when I started off - it's kinda funny now looking at some of my questions then :)

So this is what happened in the mean time :

I had to first go learn some more computer terms and definitions for my first ever computer fixing attempt.
Yay, this is exiting!

I saw that - without a monitor a bench test wont reveal much other than whether or not
- I get power
- fan(s) spin
- optical drive(s) open/close
- lights come on
- I hear beep(s).

And after reading a bit on the internet, I realized that without a monitor, and without the aid of diagnostic tools, resolving computer hardware issues & problems would remain a trial and error process.

I learned that without a monitor, with a speaker connected to the mainboard (so I can hear mainboard beeps), the mainboard's BIOS (Basic Input/Output System) produces a normal short beep when nothing is wrong, and an error beep or pattern of beeps when something isn't right to give a crude indication of what has gone wrong during the POST (Power On Self Test) - in my case a repetitive 5 second long beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep whenever I remove the RAM and power on the computer, and no beep whenever I replace the RAM and power on the computer.

I learned from you that a hard drive is not required to order for the computer to POST (Power On Self Test), so it made sense to me to verify that the existing hardware is good before considering getting a hard drive.

So as a "bush 'mechanic' " without a monitor and without diagnostic tools, I reached the following conclusion :
1. The capacitors appear fine - no signs of electrolyte oozing out and of bulging and disfigurement.
2. The following essential mainboard components are in place and well connected and seated:
- PSU (Power Supply Unit)
- CPU (Central Processing Unit) and heatsink and fans,
- a stick of RAM (Random Access Memory).
3. The mainboard has integrated graphics.
4. It powers on and the fans spin nicely and lights come on.
5. The RAM stick shows no physical signs of damage (such as physical damage on the contacts on the module, and chips that have become detached from where they're supposed to be firmly soldered - if someone dropped the module, or if someone pushed down on a chip rather than the module card).
6. The RAM slot shows no physical signs of damage [such as damaged or missing (vaporized) contacts, and black carbon deposits, and places where the plastic in the slot was melted].

So to me the beeping error message from my MS-6714 mainboard indicates that at least the power supply, motherboard, CPU and memory card have some functionality left.
So I disconnected my working computer's monitor and connected it to this thrown-away MS-6714 computer to see if the display card still have some functionality left.

Yay, this time there was life on the monitor up to the following point :

" Verifying DMI Pool Data ............
Boot from CD : Failure ...
DISK BOOT FAILURE, INSERT SYSTEM DISK AND PRESS ENTER "

QUESTION : What should I do next?

Once again THANKS for showing so much patience with me as such a beginner - I appreciate it.


Report •

#27
December 2, 2010 at 16:12:52
You have video !
No long beep anymore, I'm assuming.

Oops - usually we suggest you try another monitor when you have no video, but usually there's nothing wrong with the monitor you were using in the first place. Is the original monitor an LCD monitor by any chance ? They're more likely to produce a display for a shorter total time than a CRT monitor.

"Verifying DMI Pool Data ............"

That or something similar on the screen is normal while booting.

"Boot from CD :"

If your Boot Order or similar settings in the mboard's bios Setup are set to boot from a CD-rom drive or similar before a hard drive, that or something similar is normal to see while booting.
- If a bootable optical disk (CD, or DVD if the drive can read DVDs) is detected, you will then see "Press any key to boot from CD" or similar - if you press the stated key while that line is on the screen, the bios will try to boot the computer from the disk. Usually there is a 5 second delay while booting during which you can press the key.
- If a bootable optical disk is NOT detected, then the bios tries to boot from the next device in the Boot Order or similar list on the bios Setup

"Boot from CD :Failure ..."

That may be normal for when there is no bootable optical disk detected, for your bios.

"DISK BOOT FAILURE, INSERT SYSTEM DISK AND PRESS ENTER "

The bios has detected no bootable disk - a disk that has an operating system installed on it - after it tried to boot from the next thing in the boot order list.

That can be caused by many things.....

- a floppy drive is listed after CD-rom or similar in the Boot Order or similar list - it has a floppy disk inserted in it but the floppy disk is not bootable - in that case the bios will NOT try to boot from the next thing in the Boot Order list if there is something listed
- a floppy drive is supposed to be listed BEFORE a CD-rom drive or similar, if the computer has one - it's often supposed to be the first thing on the list in older bioses.

- if a hard drive is connected, the bios must detect it.
Usually it is detected automatically if it's connected properly and if the bios is set to default settings.
It may not be bootable even when the bios does detect it.
In newer bioses, the model of the hard drive, and often it's size, will show up in the bios if it's been detected.
In older bioses it's size and parameters (cylinders, heads, etc.) will show up in the bios if it's been detected, or you may just see that a hard drive has been detected.

- The hard drive may not have it's power connector or it's data cable connector connected to it, or both.

- or - sometimes it's possible to plug in the data cable connector backwards - all the connectors can be plugged in in the right direction, sometimes all of them can be plugged in backwards (more likely if it's a 40 wire data cable with no external tab on the connectors) - that works too - but the connector on the hard drives or optical drives and in the IDE header on the mboard must be plugged in in the same direction - the stripe on one side of the data cable must be near the pin one end of the drive pins or mboard header pins, or all of them may be able to have the stripe on the end opposite that.
The pin 1 end is usually marked on the mboard surface near the mboard IDE header with an arrowhead or a 1; the pin 1 end of an IDE hard drive or optical drive connector is usually next to the drive's power connector.

- the hard drive has a data cable problem, or the jumper setting on the back of the drive is not set correctly - e.g. older bioses will often not detect the drive at all if the jumper setting is set to Slave if it's by itself on a data cable.

It is common to un-intentionally damage IDE data cables, especially while removing them - the 80 wire ones are more likely to be damaged. What usually happens is the cable is ripped at either edge and the wires there are either damaged or severed, often right at a connector or under it's cable clamp there, where it's hard to see - if a wire is severed but it's ends are touching, the connection is intermittent, rather than being reliable.
Another common thing is for the data cable to be separated from the connector contacts a bit after you have removed a cable - there should be no gap between the data cable and the connector - if there is press the cable against the connector to eliminate the gap.
80 wire data cables are also easily damaged at either edge if the cable is sharply creased at a fold in the cable.

Try another data cable if in doubt.

- the hard drive has no data on it

- the hard drive has data on it, it's supposed to be bootable, but the data on it is corrupted - that's often caused by...
- the hard drive is failing, or is dead - if it doesn'r spin when the power connector is connected to it, while the computer is running, it's definately dead .

- If it does spin and if it shows up in the bios, you can test it

Check your hard drive with the manufacturer's diagnostics.
See the latter part of response 1 in this:
http://www.computing.net/windows95/...

If you don't have a floppy drive, you can get a CD image diagnostic utility from most hard drive manufacturer's web sites, but obviously you would need to make a burned CD, preferably a CD-R for best compatibility, on another computer if you need to.

E.g.
Seagate's Seatools will test any brand of hard drive.
Do the long test.
http://www.seagate.com/ww/v/index.j...

If the hard drive itself tests okay, any data problems found can be fixed, one way or another.

- if there are two or more hard drives connected, at least one one is bootable, at least one is not, the bios will NOT try to boot from another hard drive if the first one the bios detects is not bootable.
In that case, there is usually a list of hard drives in the bios, usually near the Boot Order or similar settings - the drive that is bootable must be the first one in the list.

There's probably info in ypur mboard manual about how to properly set jumper settings on hard and optical drives, how to connect the data cables and their connectors properly, and descrptions of bios Setup settings.



Report •

#28
December 2, 2010 at 17:03:46
Without going back through the thread did you verify you even have a hard drive installed. It is common to remove the hard drive before disposing a PC.

Report •

#29
December 2, 2010 at 22:40:17
8:41 AM SA time

Othehill

I wrote right at the beginning at #3 "It has no hard drive." and asked, "What is a compatible hard drive to get?"

You replied at #4 :
"A hard drive is not required to order for the computer to POST. I suggest you verify the existing hardware is good before buying a hard drive."

OK so with your help and a bit of trial and error I eventually verified that the existing hardware is good, so back to my question at #3 :

What is a compatible hard drive to get?

I will search around to see what I can find out.


Report •

#30
December 2, 2010 at 22:53:41
8:54 SA time

Morning Tubesandwire

Yes I have video ! Happy !

You assumed right - I have no long beep anymore.

I wrote right at the beginning at #3 "It has no hard drive." and asked, "What is a compatible hard drive to get?"

Othehill replied at #4 :
"A hard drive is not required to order for the computer to POST. I suggest you verify the existing hardware is good before buying a hard drive."

OK so with your and his help and a bit of trial and error I eventually verified that the existing hardware is good, so I shall now have to look for a compatible hard drive.

You wrote a lot of information in your latest post to me - all new to me - thanks !

So first I will go study that SLOWLY.


Report •

#31
December 2, 2010 at 23:28:37
9:29 AM SA time

Tubesandwire

Oops and I never mentioned that this throw-away MS-6714 was given to me without a monitor (and without keyboard & mouse), and that I didn't want to keep disconnecting & re-connecting the monitor from my working PC to test the MS-6714.
I found it senseless to search for a monitor & keyboard & mouse while I wasnt sure whether the MS-6714 were OK or not.


Report •

#32
December 3, 2010 at 03:48:10
Well, sounds like you are on the right track. I suggest you install a hard drive and OS. Verify all is well and then buy a second set of peripherals.

Report •

#33
December 3, 2010 at 11:36:40
"What is a compatible hard drive to get?"

Your mboard, main chipset, and bios are probably new enough that you can use any size of hard drive.
Look in your mboard manual. If it mentions 48 bit LBA support, or if it indicates it can use hard drives larger than 137gb manufacturer's size (or larger than 128gb size in the operating system), then you can use any size of IDE (a.k.a. EIDE, PATA) 3 1/2" (desktop computer) hard drive.

Where I am in Canada, the smallest commonly locally available IDE size is 80gb, the next one up, 160gb. Some places no longer stock them (IDE drives) though.

For Win ME or below, a smaller drive than that is fine - minimum , say, 10gb. For 2000 and XP, 80gb, or smaller, may be fine, minimum, say, 20gb, if you're not greedy about what you download to or have on your computer.
......

You also have the option of getting a SATA drive, if you also get a PCI SATA drive controller card (as cheap as $30 or under where I am) , or another type of adapter (similar price or less) that can adapt a SATA drive for use on a mboard that has no built in SATA controllers or SATA data headers - you may also need a wiring adapter for the SATA power socket on the SATA hard drive if your power supply doesn't have that.

You should be able to find all those being sold locally. SATA drives of the same size as IDE drives may be cheaper.
.....

Most of if not all the other types of SATA to IDE adapters don't require anything special - they make the SATA appear to be an IDE drive to the bios and main chipset - but most if not all can only be used with one SATA drive (a PCI card supports at least two if not four) and they work with fewer mboards than PCI SATA controller cards do, and all the ones I've come across limit the SATA drive to a max 150 (or 133 ?) mbyte/sec burst data transfer speed. New and fairly recent used SATA drives are all SATA II - they support 300 mbyte/sec burst data transfer speeds

A PCI SATA drive controller card probably works on more computers than other types of adapters, and it supports 300 mbyte/sec burst data transfer speeds, but if you want to be able to boot an operating system from a SATA drive connected to it, you must be able to select SCSI as a boot device in your Boot Order or similar settings in your bios Setup, and have that listed just BEFORE hard drive there.
You also must have SATA drivers for the card's SATA controller available when you boot from the operating system CD - as far as I know that's only possible in 2000 and up, and for 2000 and XP, you usually must have a legacy (internal, conventional) floppy drive, and a floppy disk with the drivers on it, - - or - you must make a "slipstreamed" Windows CD (CD-R is best) that has the SATA controller drivers integrated into it, and use that to boot the computer with. If you do the latter, you might as well integrate the SP updates that are not built into the CD contents at the same time - SP4 updates for 2000, SP3 updates for XP.

For 2000 and XP, by default, you must press F6 early in the loading of the files from the CD when you boot from it, and provide the SATA drivers on a floppy disk a little later.

Don't use the PCI slot of the PCI slots on the end closest to the middle of the mboard for anything but a PCI video card. That slot is forced to use the same IRQ as the video uses, and cards other than PCI video cards are likely to not work properly in that slot. If you have only one PCI slot, I advise you to NOT buy a PCI SATA drive controller card.


Report •

#34
December 3, 2010 at 12:31:22
The Intel 845 series chipset does NOT support 48 bit LBA.

What you need to do if buying an drive larger than 137GB is to partition it so the primary partition is smaller than 137GB. You should do this anyway. Then you need to install the Intel application accelerator after you have Windows installed. Then you should be able to access the remainder of the drive.

In addition to the above, if you use WinXP you must provide the SATA drivers at the beginning of the install, if using a SATA drive.

Look at both links below for more on the 845 chipset and the link to the application accelerator.

http://wdc.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/wdc...

http://downloadcenter.intel.com/Det...

Vista and Windows 7 should support SATA controllers. Any OS older than WinXP will not support SATA controllers. WinXP with NO service packs doesn't support 48 bit LBA either. That shouldn't be an issue because you must partition, as described above.

It is very possible that Vista & Windows 7 already incorporate the Intel application accelerator. I am not sure about that.


Report •

#35
December 3, 2010 at 12:44:42
2000 CDs with SP4 updates included can support SATA drives when the SATA drivers have been installed, and drives > 137gb manufacturer's size.
However, 2000 is no longer actively supported by Microsoft.

Regular Microsoft XP CDs have SP2 or SP3 printed on them if they have those updates included. All the regular Microsoft XP CDs that have SP1 updates included that I've seen DO NOT have SP1 printed on the CD, but the volume labels - the labels you see for the CD in Windows - for CDs with SP1 updates included are different from those with no SP updates at all - you can search using that volume label to determine whether it has SP1 updates or not.


PCI SATA or PCI IDE (a.k.a. EIDE, PATA) drive controller cards have their own bios and will recognize any size of hard drive.
A PCI IDE (a.k.a. EIDE, PATA) drive controller card's chipset must support ATAPI if you want to be able to connect an optical drive to it - newer chipsets do, older ones may not (e.g. some Promise ones) .
I'm not sure whether the other types of SATA to IDE adapters will recognize any size of hard drives if the mboard doesn't.


Report •

#36
December 3, 2010 at 12:54:14
As per #35 above. Just buy your desired hard drive. If you do have a problem with the BIOS not seeing the hard drive at all then you would need to buy a PCI slot based SATA controller card. They are not that expensive but if you don't go wild with your drive selection I don't think that will be necessary.

Remember, you are trying to get by cheap. Even a 120GB drive is a lot of storage space.


Report •

#37
December 6, 2010 at 06:24:45
Tubesandwire

I'm back. Hey you guys are great. Was a lot of info you guys posted for someone like me, so I had to go learn some more terms and definitions etc. - I mean this was the first time I'v seen what a hard drive looks like :-/

You explained all the BIOS messages that I posted to you, in a way that was easy for me to understand - thanks.

By the way, in answer to your question, the monitor I am using is an old CRT monitor.

Perhaps I better tell you WHY I am trying to ressurrect this old MS-6714.
What originally happened was this -
I have been working on an old computer that can support a maximum memory size of 1.5GB SD RAM, but it has only 320 RAM (64 +256) installed, and the OS is Windows 2000, so I have been developing a few pre-mature grey hairs in the process.
So I considered upgrading to its full capacity, but finding 512 SD-RAM PC133 at a reasonable price from computer dealers around here is like asking for chicken teeth - at their price for three 512 SD RAM sticks I may as well buy a better second hand PC.

I thought that if I looked in old throw-away computers I might be lucky to find 512 SD RAM. So when I got this MS-6714 throw-away the other day, I checked that it had a faster processor and can take 2G DDRAM, of which it already had a 1G stick installed, so that sparked off the idea in my head to try to ressurrect the old box, thinking that until I have enough cash to buy/build a more up to date PC, the MS-6714 may at least make things a bit more user friendly for me, if I install Windows XP Home.

So then I joined this forum to seek help on how to ressurrect this old MS-6714.

And now I have already learned so much :-)

OK, to recap, my original idea was -

1. to see if I could ressurrect this MS-6714 as cheap as possible (preferably with unwanted throw-away parts - else, because of its age, if I had to buy fancy parts, I might as well buy/build a more updated one, and I'd rather save such money on building my dream PC one day once I have gained more experience), and
2. to use this opportunity of having been given this throw-away MS-6714, and having found you guys to help me (thanks) as an exercise for me to learn to fix/build a computer myself.

So the neighbour gave me an old MS-6368 VER.5 computer that I spotted stashed away in his garage, and I took the following hard drive out of it (it's really SMALL - laugh if you want, but perhaps with time a bigger one will come my way, but for now this will have to do, if it can be used) :
It's a Western Digital Caviar WD64AA-00AAA4 6.4GB ATA/ IDE hard drive, and it can be seen at the following link :

http://pjcomputers.net/westerndigit...

QUESTION 1 : Is this hard drive compatible with the MS-6714 ?

I know it's very SMALL.

I installed it and it spins.

OK so now I am wondering, if I can get this 4G hard drive to work and the MS-6714 to detect it, then maybe if all seems well, I could then install the hard drive that I am presently using on my PC with which I am typing to you at this moment (a bigger hard drive - 40 G), and install it as an extra hard drive into the MS-6714 - if it is compatible ?

I haven't taken it out to look at it, but my System Tools told me the following about it :
Drive Model : IC35L060AVV207-0

http://www.techexcess.net/hitachi-d...
or
http://www.streetprices.com/Compute...

QUESTION 2 : Is the above 40G hard drive compatible with the MS-6714 ?

QUESTION 3 : Am I totally off track or are my ideas as described above possible?


Report •

#38
December 6, 2010 at 06:27:19
Othehill

I hope I am a bit more clever now after looking up some more terms and definitions etc. this weekend after reading the new info you guys posted me Friday 3 December. Thanks.

I had to go read and learn about hard drives first because really this was the first time I'v seen what a hard drive looks like :-/

So now, haha, you may laugh when you read what size hard drive I scored for free, I don't mind :-/

But yes I can see that once I have learned enough and saved enough cash to start building my dream PC, I shall have to get a much bigger hard drive, especially for the purposes that I would want to use it for eventually.

Partitioning the drive if larger than 137GB, installing the Intel application accelerator to access the remainder of the drive, and providing the SATA drivers at the beginning of the install if I use WinXP - I am not there yet, because,
as you wrote in your latest post to me, "Remember, you are trying to get by cheap. Even a 120GB drive is a lot of storage space.", well, I have only ... 6GB (for now) ! :-)

Yes I know its VERY SMALL compared to 137GB :-/

Perhaps I better tell you WHY I am trying to ressurrect this old MS-6714.
What originally happened was this -
I have been working on an old computer that can support a maximum memory size of 1.5GB SD RAM, but it has only 327.152 KB RAM (64 +256) installed, and the OS is Windows 2000, so I have been developing a few pre-mature grey hairs in the process.
So I considered upgrading to its full capacity, but finding 512 SD-RAM PC133 at a reasonable price from computer dealers around here is like asking for chicken teeth - at their price for three 512 SD RAM sticks I might as well then buy a better second hand PC.

I thought that if I looked in old throw-away computers I might be lucky to find 512 SD RAM. So when I was given this MS-6714 throw-away the other day, I checked that it had a faster processor and can take 2G DDRAM, of which it already had a 1G stick installed, so that sparked off the idea in my head to try to ressurrect the old box, thinking that until I have enough cash to buy/build a more up to date PC, the MS-6714 may at least make things a bit more user friendly for me, if I install Windows XP.

So then I joined this forum to seek help on how to ressurrect this old MS-6714.

And now I have already learned so much :-)

OK, to recap, my original idea was -

1. to see if I could ressurrect this MS-6714 as cheap as possible (preferably with unwanted throw-away parts - else, because of its age, if I had to buy fancy parts, I might as well buy/build a more updated one, and I'd rather save such money on building my dream PC one day once I have gained more experience), and
2. to use this opportunity of having been given this throw-away MS-6714, and having found you guys to help me (thanks) as an exercise for me to learn to fix/build a computer myself.

So the neighbour gave me an old MS-6368 VER.5 computer that I spotted stashed away in his garage, and I took the following hard drive out of it (it's really SMALL - laugh if you want, but perhaps with time a bigger one will come my way, but for now this will have to do, if it can be used).
It's a Western Digital Caviar WD64AA-00AAA4 6.4GB ATA/ IDE hard drive, and it can be seen at the following link :

http://pjcomputers.net/westerndigit...

QUESTION 1 : Is this hard drive compatible with the MS-6714 ?

I know it's very SMALL.

I installed it and it spins.

OK so now I am wondering, if I can get this 6G hard drive to work and the MS-6714 to detect it, then maybe if all seems well, I could then install the hard drive that I am presently using on my PC with which I am typing to you at this moment (a bigger hard drive - 40 G), and install it as an extra hard drive into the MS-6714 - if it is compatible ?

I haven't taken it out to look at it, but my System Tools told me the following about it :
Drive Model : IC35L060AVV207-0

http://www.techexcess.net/hitachi-d...
or
http://www.streetprices.com/Compute...

QUESTION 2 : Is the above 40G hard drive compatible with the MS-6714 ?

QUESTION 3 : Am I totally off track or are my ideas as described above possible?


Report •

#39
December 6, 2010 at 06:38:25
IBM had a rash of defective drives that failed prematurely. They then sold their hard drive division to Hitachi, Who I believe were already manufacturing them for IBM. At any rate, I would avoid both of those links. The IBM must be used pulls and you don't really want them from any brand. IMO there are better brands available.

Unfortunately I can't help you with vendors that ship to S. Africa.

The 6.4GB might work. You may need to enter the parameters manually. I may not be able to run in a PIO or DMA mode, which will make it much slower.

Any 40-120GB IDE/ATA drive should be OK to use with that board.

Do you have disks and key for WIn2000?


Report •

#40
December 6, 2010 at 06:54:58
Othehill

Oh dear, ok. Thanks.

I do not have disks and key for Win2000 anymore.


Report •

#41
December 6, 2010 at 09:24:06
I'm still using a computer I built at the beginning of 2000 for Win 98SE that supports only SDram, and up to 768mb can be installed in it's three ram slots, but the cost of three new 16 chip 256mb modules (they must have 16 chips), or even used ones I've priced out so far, prohibits it being worth installing the maximum ram. Thankfully 98SE works well with 128mb of ram, and probably doesn't benefit from more than 256mb. I also have at least one other computer that has the same problem regarding that, if not several of them.
"....at their price for three 512 SD RAM sticks I might as well then buy a better second hand PC."
Used 512mb SDram (Synchronous Dynamic ram) is quite rare - when it first came out it was so expensive only businesses could justify buying it. Most mboards that used the original SDRam were limited to max 128mb or 256mb SDram modules, although some mboard model's manuals and brand name system specs originally specified a lower maximum than the main chipset could actually support (that was the case for my 98SE computer's mboard's Via MVP3 main chipset, and other mboards with the same main chipset series).

XP just barely works as it was intended to with 256mb of ram. 512mb is a good minimum for modest needs, and most people don't benefit from more than 1gb of ram.
2000 has more modest ram needs, but if you don't have a 2000 CD, that's not an option.

DDR SDram (all newer ram these days a newer type of SDram) is relatively cheap. If you need more than 1gb or ram (1,024mb), which isn't likely for XP, then that's not a big problem.

XP itself, and programs you commonly need, will use up about 1/2 of the 6.4gb drive, after Windows critical and Security Updates and all it's SP updates have been installed. If the XP CD does not have SP3 updates integrated into it on the CD, after SP3 updates have been installed, you can free up some hard drive space by removing backup files created when SP3 updates are installed, but then you can't un-install the SP3 updates (you usually never need to, if you install SP3 updates before you have installed a lot of other programs - see below).

You can follow procedures and suggestions to make XP take up less space, but that's not something recommended for an amateur.
You need at least a minimal amount of free space on the C partition on the hard drive in order for Windows to be able to run at the max speed it can run. E.g. at least 1gb free on the 6.4gb drive.
If you have more than one hard drive, you DO NOT have to install all programs that did not come with Windows on C - usually you can specify that it's installed on another drive letter, by selecting a Custom install or similar, or by simply changing the drive letter at the beginning of the location the program installs the program to by default - in that case, only a tiny bit of what is required to be installed is installed on the C partition.

Programs you commonly need....
- Internet Explorer - XP comes with version 6.x but many web sites are no longer optimized to use it anymore - you get long delays loading web pages in somecases, and (Java) script errors sometimes. Internet Explorer 8 is recommended, but it uses up some more drive space - the latest versions of other internet browsers such as Firefox or Opera work well and take up a lot less drive space.
- Adobe Acrobat Reader - if you install an older version of it it will take up less drive space, and it will still read almost all *.pdf's fine, although some fonts may not display as intended. Even version 5.x will work in XP. The Adobe site does not have the older versions available, but they are available elsewhere.
- Adobe Flash - required for many web pages - install the latest version, it doesn't use much drive space
- if you play games, you may need to install Adobe Shockwave Player - the newest version is fine
- if you update Windows Media Player, install an older version - it will take up less drive space
- DO NOT install Windows Live - it's default installation is a space hog. You can still use Messenger ot Hotmail without installing that.
- DO NOT install the Windows Search (Windows Desktop Search) add on - it DOES NOT work properly and will slow down everything in Windows.

"The 6.4GB might work. You may need to enter the parameters manually."

You usually don't need to specify parameters in the bios Setup for any IDE hard drive larger than 2.x gb, at least in your 6714's bios you probably won't need to - if the bios is set to Auto detect drives by the method Auto or LBA or similar, the 6.4gb drive should be detected fine, and it's probably capable of at least UDMA33 specs (max burst data transfer speed 33 mbytes/sec ) - shown as Ultra DMA mode 2 in XP.
The 40gb drive is probably capable of at least UDMA66 specs (max burst data transfer speed 66 mbytes/sec ) - shown as Ultra DMA mode 4 in XP - but you must use 80 wire IDE data cables with drives that support UDMA66 or higher with a mboard that supports UDMA66 or higher (your 6714 does) .

80 wire data cables must have the right end connector connected to the mboard IDE header - usually that's blue, but in any case, is the one farther from the middle connector on a 3 connector data cable.
..........

"IBM had a rash of defective drives that failed prematurely."

You could test the 6.4gb (or 40gb) drive before you install Windows on it by running a bootable hard drive diagnostics program on it.
Check your hard drive with the manufacturer's diagnostics.
See the latter part of response 1 in this:
http://www.computing.net/windows95/...

If you don't have a floppy drive, you can get a CD image diagnostic utility from most hard drive manufacturer's web sites, but obviously you would need to make a burned CD, preferably a CD-R for best compatibility, on another computer if you need to.
E.g.
Seagate's Seatools will test any brand of hard drive.
Do the long test.
http://www.seagate.com/ww/v/index.j...
......

Some IDE hard drives, e.g. many Western Digital models, have two ways the drive can be designated as (jumpered as) Master - e.g. Master, single, for when the drive is by itself on an IDE data cable, and Master, with Slave, for when the drive is on a data cable with another IDE hard or optical (CD or DVD) drive. Such a drive may not be detected properly unless that setting is correct.
OR - you can set the hard drive to CS - Cable Select and have it on the end connector of a 3 connector data cable, or set both drives on the same datac able to Cable Select.

Older bioses may not detect a drive at all if it is jumpered Slave and is on a data cable by itself, or if it is jumpered CS (Cable Select) and on the middle connector of a 3 connector data cable by itself.
.......

If your XP CD does not have SP3 updates included.....

See Response 6
http://www.computing.net/answers/wi...
starting at
"If your XP CD does not have SP3 updates included, the best time to load them is right after you have installed Windows from scratch...."
.....

If your XP CD does not have any SP updates, you will have to load SP1 or SP2 updates before you load SP3 updates.

Regular Microsoft XP CDs have SP2 or SP3 printed on them if they have those updates included. All the regular Microsoft XP CDs that have SP1 updates included that I've seen DO NOT have SP1 printed on the CD, but the volume labels - the labels you see for the CD in Windows - for CDs with SP1 updates included are different from those with no SP updates at all - you can search using that volume label to determine whether it has SP1 updates or not.



Report •

#42
December 6, 2010 at 09:59:46
If you want to consider buying a new SATA drive, see response 33 starting at:
"You also have the option of getting a SATA drive, if you also get a PCI SATA drive controller card ...."

Report •

#43
December 6, 2010 at 10:50:32
Tubesandwires

Hey wow ! :'-)
Just as I was about to feel a little depressed. Thanks, that's a LOT of nice info that is very helpful to me right now, and now I have something to work on again.

Yay!

Thanks, til later then.


Report •

#44
December 6, 2010 at 11:42:50
FYI

Many girls and women use Yay! when they post here when something positive has happened. That's not as common for the guys.


Report •

#45
December 6, 2010 at 12:04:29
But that's because something positive has happened and I am a girl :-) Yay!

Report •

#46
December 7, 2010 at 01:43:52
11.44 AM SA time

Tubesandwires

It gets more interesting as I read & learn, so please bear with me while I don't do anything concerning the hard drives yet, until I have studied a bit of the history of computers and the difference between ATA (PATA) and SATA etc., because this world of computers is so new to me and while I hear people throw big fancy computer terms left and right, I only discovered now, at the end of 2010, that SATA was introduced to the market in 2003 and that my MS-6714 was released in 2001, so now I'm a little confused about what's what.

I mean what's the benefit if I work on trial and error and hope only, while not even having the basics sussed :-/

So I will be back later.

When I have clicked the difference between serial and parallel technology, and am ready to continue, should I start a new thread or stick with this one ?


Report •

#47
December 7, 2010 at 01:52:35
OtheHill

Once again thanks for all your help. I have learned so much. I feel lucky that I was able to be on this forum and receive so much helpful input from you guys.

Please read #46 above.

Thanks :-)


Report •

#48
December 7, 2010 at 05:35:21
Stick with this thread.

Report •

#49
December 7, 2010 at 07:38:58
5:40 PM South African time

OtheHill

Thanks, til later then.


Report •

#50
December 7, 2010 at 08:28:00
If you use the 6.4gb and/or 40gb IDE drive you already have, or if you obtain another IDE hard drive used or new, you don't need to be concerned about using a SATA hard drive at all.

You could try using the 6.4gb or 40gb or both, and see how it goes. If you find they don't have enough capacity for your needs, you can use a free program available on the same web site as a larger hard drive's brand to copy the entire data contents of a hard drive to a larger hard drive.
..........

SATA hard drives can be used with mboards that did not originally have a SATA drive controller built into the mboard, if you connect the SATA drive to a PCI SATA drive controller card, or another type of adapter that allows the SATA drive to be seen as an IDE drive by the mboard.

XP must have at least SP1 updates integrated into the XP CD you use to install Windows, in order for the support for SATA drives to be present in Windows, and since drivers are required for the SATA drive if you use a PCI SATA drive controller card, you must provide those drivers when you first load files from the XP CD when you are going to be installing Windows, otherwise the files the CD loads intially and Setup will not find the SATA hard drive. If you have an internal floppy drive, it's quite easy to do the procedure of providing the SATA drive controller drivers you need on a floppy disk while loading the initial files from an XP CD.

If your XP CD does not have at least SP1 updates integrated into it, you can make a "slipstreamed" CD (a CD-R is best) on another computer that has the SP3 updates integrated into it after you do a procedure, and while you're doing that, you can also integrate the SATA drive controller drivers you need into the contents of the CD. Then you use the "slipstreamed" CD to install Windows rather than your original XP CD, along with the Product Key for the original XP CD.


Report •

#51
December 9, 2010 at 14:55:43
00:57 SA time

Tubesandwires

I value your detailed explanations greatly. Thanks for sharing so much. Here I sit as an amateur all by myself and I'm being fed loads of valuable information from experienced guys from the other side of the planet - amazing.
And all this at the click of a mouse.

I understand the difference between parallel and serial technology a bit better now.

I looked into the history of the development of the computer since 1936, which helped me understand the world of computers much better - wow, technology developed fast since then !

My 6.4G hard drive didn't seem so outdated anymore after looking at the following hard drive :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:B...

And to think that the first man-made object to orbit the Earth in 1957, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:S... happened when a computer in 1957 looked like this :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Z...

Keeping this in mind, I can also see that an 'old' MS-6714 could still serve me well if I handled it nicely - it would be interesting to see how many years the oldies will serve us still, and I find it interesting that you still use a computer that you built in 2000. Pity about the scarcity and price of SD RAM, but then again, I can see now that unless one really has no other choice, it may not be needed if one's needs aren't that big, and it can still perform pretty well with the right OS etc.

A moment of silence for my 6.4G Western Digital hard drive ...
I think it's dead.

Following your suggestion I ran a diagnostic test with SeaTools DOS - the Long Test was completed within the split second that I clicked my mouse - and got the following result :

"Long Test Errors :

Unfortunately, your Seagate hard drive has failed an important diagnostic test, possibly caused by problem sectors which are difficult to read.
...
Error(s) Detected on NON Seagate Drive.
It is suggested that you contact the maker of your disc drive for more information"

and

"Repair was unsuccessful on the hard drive.
...
If you give permission to overwite a bad sector SeaTools will attempt to write a pattern of zeros to that sector. Usually, this action will assist the disc drive firmware in managing the problem by retiring the problem LBA and activating a space in its place."

That's dead hey ?
No hope at all ?


Report •

#52
December 9, 2010 at 23:57:18
9:58 AM SA time

OtheHill

Good morning.

Please read # 51 above. Thank you for your time and the valuable information you shared.

In trying to understand the booting process and the boot loader, I was wondering,

if one got the following BIOS messages :

" Verifying DMI Pool Data ............
Boot from CD : Failure ...
DISK BOOT FAILURE, INSERT SYSTEM DISK AND PRESS ENTER "

What would happen if one inserted the system disk - without a hard drive installed - and pressed enter, would it boot to the volatile RAM and be operable?


Report •

#53
December 10, 2010 at 04:24:50
First I should clarify what a system disk is. It is the place where the OS is installed. Doesn't necessarily need to be a hard drive.

Are you asking if you were to boot to a Windows installation disk would the computer run? If so, the answer is no. The OS on the disk must be unpacked and installed, along with the proper drivers to support your hardware configuration.

That said, there are many LIVE OSes you can boot to and run from without the need of a hard drive. These are primarily portable versions of Linux. Knoppix, Linux Puppy are two that come to mind. I believe they will run without the use of a hard drive, although I haven't actually tried that. They don't need to install anything to the hard drive but they may use space on the drive for a swap file if there is insufficient RAM available.

These LIVE OSes can run from a CDR, DVDR, flash drive or hard drive.

Have you tried letting Seatools do the repair? If you set the boot order to CD first and you see the failure message then you don't have a bootable CD inserted, or possibly you didn't hit any key to boot from the CD drive when prompted.


Report •

#54
December 10, 2010 at 05:59:01
Othehill

Thanks.

Quoting from #53 above :
"Are you asking if you were to boot to a Windows installation disk would the computer run? If so, the answer is no. The OS on the disk must be unpacked and installed, along with the proper drivers to support your hardware configuration."

:-) Ok, my experience of fixing a computer is only 2 weeks young - pre-preliminary - I only started learning about this stuff on 26 November, two weeks ago. So I thought (or wondered) that the boot loader loads the OS from the CD, into the RAM, from where it is operable while powered, and from where one can optionally choose to store (install) the OS into a non-volatile place - a hard drive - and that the hard drive is merely a larger and more convenient storage device than a CD :-)

:-/ I better go study the terms "boot", "boot loader" and "install" some more and learn what exactly happens inside the computer when "booting", "setting up", "installing" and "executing".

Quoting from #53 above :
"... there are many LIVE OSes you can boot to and run from without the need of a hard drive. ... These LIVE OSes can run from a CDR, DVDR, flash drive or hard drive."

This helps me understand only more or less what I thought, because now I am not entirely certain if I understood it correctly.

Quoting from #53 above :
"If you set the boot order to CD first and you see the failure message then you don't have a bootable CD inserted, or possibly you didn't hit any key to boot from the CD drive when prompted."

My boot order is HDD, CDROM, Floppy. The "Boot from CD : Failure ... DISK BOOT FAILURE, INSERT SYSTEM DISK AND PRESS ENTER " - message was before I had a bootable CD inserted. When I inserted the SeaTools DOS CD and pressed ENTER, it unzipped, detected the hard drive and its name and specs, and then gave me the diagniosis as decribed in #51.

I did not see an option where I could choose to let Seatools do the repair other than a "Done" button to click on. Perhaps I missed something, I will try again.

Thanks.


Report •

#55
December 10, 2010 at 09:07:44
I was referring back to the last paragraph in #51 above. You indicated a message;

"If you give permission to overwrite a bad sector SeaTools will attempt to write a pattern of zeros to that sector. Usually, this action will assist the disc drive firmware in managing the problem by retiring the problem LBA and activating a space in its place."


Report •

#56
December 10, 2010 at 09:22:45
The Seagate SeaTools will offer to write zeros to a hard drive if the long test finds 99 or fewer LBA errors. If there are 100 or more errors, the long test quits, because they know if it has 100 or more LBA errors, the chances are very high that the drive is definitely failing and there would be no point in putting more effort into trying to cure the problem, because even if you wrote zeros to the drive the problem will probably rapidly get worse.
The Seagate SeaTools will test any brand of hard drive, but if it does find LBA errors in the long test, it's recommended you then run the diagnostics program that the hard drive manufacturer provides on their own web site to try to repair the problem by writing zeros to the drive - you often cannot choose to do that until you have run whatever long test those diagnostics provide.

Western Digital provides this....
Data Lifeguard Diagnostics for Dos
http://support.wdc.com/product/down...

For Win 98 and up, as in, the download can make a bootable floppy disk or a bootable CD if it's clicked on in Win 98 and up - it doesn't matter what operating system is on the hard drive you test and it doesn't even need to have data on it - similar applies to any bootable hard drive diagnostics program.

If the hard drive is still under warranty, you must run the hard drive brand's diagnostics on it and make note of whatever error codes or error messages are generated in order to be able to make a warranty claim and obtain a RMA (Return of Merchandise Authorization) from the manufacturer's web site so that you can ship the drive to some place (in appropriate packaging that meets their minimum specifications stated on their web site) to have it repaired, or for more shipping cost on your part, so you can have them ship a replacement drive to you, then you ship the original one back to them within a short time period.
If the drive still spins, usually there's nothing physically wrong with the mechanical parts of the drive or the disks (platters) inside the drive - it's the drive's circuit board that is malfunctioning.
If the 6.4gb drive has a relatively small number of LBA errors when you do the long SeaTools test, then there is a good chance that if you run the drive brand's own diagnostics on the drive and use the zero fill or similar feature, the drive may pass that procedure fine and you will be able to use it and not have any bad sectors on it for after that.
All modern IDE and SCSI hard drives made since about the mid 90's, and all SATA hard drives, have an automatic hardware/software routine built into their firmware (kind of like the hard drive's bios - optical drives have firmware too) that is supposed to find new bad sectors when they are detected, bad sectors are then logically replaced with spare good sectors, and any data on a bad sector is moved to a spare good sector - that usually works fine without you or the operating system noticing anything because bad sectors usually are able to be read most of the time before they get worse. All modern hard drives have a certain small percentage of the drive's space reserved for that purpose. If everything works properly, you or the operating system never "see" a bad sector, unless the drive is failing and all the spare good sectors have been used up. However, sometimes for whatever reason, the drive's automatic hardware/software routine doesn't work 100% correctly, or something else happens, and the diagnostics test finds a relatively small number of bad sectors even though there are still spare good sectors available. E.g. I've seen that happen on a hard drive that has one or more files flagged as un-movable - e.g. I have income tax preparation software that has that situation for some files.
If there are still spare good sectors available when you zero fill the drive, then the drive will pass the zero fill procedure, and no errors will be found when you run the long test again.
I'm still using the Maxtor 13.66gb hard drive I got in late 1999 on the 98SE computer - it's not much newer than the 6.4gb drive, and it's probably been used for a lot more hours.
You may have noticed SeaTools displays the total number of hours the drive has been used (might not apply for the 6.4gb drive, but should apply for the 40gb one), but that may not be accurate for non Seagate or non Maxtor drives. It also shows the max temp the drive has been exposed to if the drive's board has a built in temp sensor (drives made in about 2001 or later have that) but that may not be accurate either, except for Seagate drives, only.
.....

OtheHill said:

"Are you asking if you were to boot to a Windows installation disk would the computer run? If so, the answer is no. The OS on the disk must be unpacked and installed, along with the proper drivers to support your hardware configuration."

That's assuming the CD or DVD you use is an operating system installation CD or DVD.

If you boot with something on the disk that has the operating system fully installed on the disk, e.g. if you boot from a Linux CD or DVD, then the operating system is there, but you need to store data on a hard drive or other data storage device connected to the computer in order to actually have data on the computer.

A side note - Microsoft operating system software (Windows 2000 and up) will not allow you to boot from a USB or otherwise connected external or flash drive or other type of removable drive if the installed operating system on the drive is Windows 2000 or above - you get only an error message - UNMOUNTABLE_BOOT_VOLUME, or similar.

OtheHill said:

"If you set the boot order to CD first and you see the failure message then you don't have a bootable CD inserted,...."

Depending on the bios version, it can be perfectly normal to see
"Boot from CD - Failure" or similar if the bios does not detect a bootable disk in an optical drive in that situation. That usually doesn't indicate a problem. Other bios versions may display "Boot from CD - not found " or similar in that situation rather than showing Failure or similar.

The best way to set your bios Boot Order or similar settings in your case is
Floppy drive first, whether you have a internal floppy drive connected or not - you probably do ( it doesn't matter that if it's listed first if you don't have a floppy drive connected - it can be listed there, or after Hard drive or SCSI).
then CD drive or similar
then Hard drive or similar.

In that case, you don't need to change the Boot Order or similar when you want to boot from a bootable floppy disk, a bootable CD or DVD, or a bootable hard drive.

There is often also a selection for Network boot or similar - in most cases, unless the computer is supposed to be connecting to an institutional (e.g. educational, government) or business network, that is listed AFTER Hard drive or SCSI, or not listed at all, so that it's never tried as a boot device.

If you buy yourself a PCI SATA drive controller card for connecting a SATA hard drive to, then in order to be able to boot from a SATA drive connected to the card, SCSI must be listed before Hard drive or similar.
Floppy drive first
then CD drive or similar
then SCSI
then Hard drive or similar.

In my experience , older bioses often WILL NOT detect a bootable floppy disk in a floppy drive unless the Boot Order or similar list has the floppy drive listed first. In any case, in any bios, floppy drive (or removable drive if you can't select floppy drive) must be listed before Hard drive or SCSI.

(In really old bioses, such as the Award 4.51PG version on my mboard on the 98SE computer, there is no Boot Order or similar list where you can change the order of individual boot devices - instead you must select one of a set specified list of boot devices. In order to be able to boot from a CD or DVD, I must choose a different selection from when I want to be able to boot from a floppy disk in a floppy drive or a hard drive, and another different one if I want to be able to boot from a SCSI device (usually a drive connected to a PCI SATA or PCI EIDE (PATA) drive controller card - the bios and main chipset has a UDMA66 limit for IDE drives - a PCI EIDE (PATA) drive controller card has a UDMA133 IDE drive limit, the maximum.) )

If a floppy disk that has been inserted in floppy drive is not bootable while booting, the bios WILL NOT try to boot from anything else in the Boot Order list. In this case you would see DISK BOOT FAILURE, INSERT SYSTEM DISK AND PRESS ENTER.

If CD drive or similar is listed before Hard drive or SCSI, if a CD or DVD drive has a disk in in while booting,
- if the disk is NOT bootable, the bios tries to boot from the next thing in the boot order list
- if the disk IS detected as bootable, you will see "Press any key to boot from CD" or similar on the screen - the message usually stays on the screen for 5 seconds waiting for you to respond - if you press the stated key while that message is on the screen, the bios will then attempt to boot from the disk - if you do not press a key, the boot sequence will continue about 5 seconds after that message first appearing, and the bios tries to boot from the next thing in the boot order list.

If the hard drive has no operating system installed on it, or if it does but there's something wrong and it's not being detected as bootable, if there is no bootable floppy disk or bootable CD detected while booting the computer, in this case you will see DISK BOOT FAILURE, INSERT SYSTEM DISK AND PRESS ENTER.

If your computer has more than one hard drive installed, and if at least one is not bootable, if there is no bootable floppy disk or bootable CD detected while booting the computer, if the hard drive detected First by the bios by default, or detected First due to non-default settings made by the user, while booting, is NOT bootable, the bios WILL NOT try to boot from anything else after that, and in this case you will see DISK BOOT FAILURE, INSERT SYSTEM DISK AND PRESS ENTER.
........

If you use the WD 6.4gb drive
Software for copying an entire drive's data to a larger hard drive
Acronis True Image WD Edition Software
http://support.wdc.com/product/down...

It's a "crippled" version of the Acronis True Image software - you can do most things with it, but not all things the full version can do, if at least one hard drive connected to the computer is Western Digital.
Can be installed in XP, Vista, or Windows 7 only.

If the 40gb drive is a different brand, or if you get another hard drive and it's a different brand, you can use a similar "crippled" program available from the drive manufacturer's web site to copy an entire drive's data to another drive.
E.g. Seagate has two of those to choose from, MaxBlast and another one, if at least one hard drive connected to the computer is the Seagate or Maxtor brand.
I believe MaxBlast can be installed in 2000 and up, and with both MaxBlast and the other one, once the software has been installed on a computer, you can make a bootable CD with a version of the software on it that will allow you to boot a computer with it and copy an entire drive;s data contents to another hard drive even when 2000 or XP or up is NOT on any hard drive on the computer - you may be able to do that with other hard drive manufacturer's similar software as well.



Report •

#57
December 20, 2010 at 15:00:19
Tubesandwires

11 days later.

I did not want to post back to you before I haven't gone through lots of stuff that I was wondering about computers first, so I've been googling and reading and studying lots of stuff first.

Re: #56 above :

Thanks so much for all the information you posted me.

* The Seagate SeaTools and Data Lifeguard Diagnostic for DOS.*
You gave me some interesting infromation and explained it to me very nicely, thank you.
Interesting for me to know that an expert still uses the Maxtor 13.66gb hard drive since late 1999 and that it's not much newer than my 6.4gb drive, and yes, probably has been used for a lot more hours than my 6.4gb.

I noticed that Data LifeGuard Diagnostics for DOS's download is a floppy disk creator.
I am unable at present to create a floppy disk because my MS-6309 computer that is connected to the net, informs me to insert a floppy disk while I have already inserted a floppy disk into the floppy drive, so I don't know whether the floppy drive is faulty or not (I have never had the need to use this drive since I got this computer), and I am not in the mood to figure it out now either.

I also noticed that this Data LifeGuard Diagnostics for DOS's utility is designed for drivers larger than 8.4GB.
This confused me, wondering whether they meant a 8.4GB DRIVE or DRIVER (my Western Digital hard DRIVE is 6.4GB) and I am wondering why they wrote 8.4GB DRIVER - I thought a DRIVER was a software program that tells the operating system and other software how to communicate with a piece of hardware or devices, and, that without drivers the hardware connected to the computer will not work properly. So now I am confused about why they wrote "8.4GB driver".

So for now, thinking of the fact that Seagate SeaTools did not offer to write zeros to my 6.4GB hard drive, and that I am not presently up to trying to fix the problem of getting my MS-6309 that is connected to the net, to detect the floppy disk when it's inserted, in order to create a Data LifeGuard Diagnostics for DOS diagnostic diskette, I am imagining that the test found 100 or more LBA errors, and therefore planning to disconnect the 6.4G drive - I have in mind to create a Data LifeGuard Diagnostics for DOS diagnostic diskette when I can get a floppy drive to detect a floppy disk that still functions, to test the true physical condition of my 6.4GB hard drive.

* Thanks for the link and information for software for copying an entire drive's data to a larger hard drive.*

* Boot orders.*
Thanks for explaining the boot orders.
Quote :
"In that case, you don't need to change the Boot Order or similar when you want to boot from a bootable floppy disk, a bootable CD or DVD, or a bootable hard drive."
This made sense to me so I changed my Boot order

from

1st Boot Device : [HDD-0]
2nd Boot Device : [CDROM]
3rd Boot Device : [Floppy]

to

1st Boot Device : [Floppy]
2nd Boot Device : [CDROM]
3rdBoot Device : [HDD-0].

QUESTION 1 : Fast Boot is enabled, must I keep it that way, or must I disable it?
QUESTION 2 : Why HDD-0 and not HDD-1?

* Quote :
"If you boot with something on the disk that has the operating system fully installed on the disk, e.g. if you boot from a Linux CD or DVD, then the operating system is there, but you need to store data on a hard drive or other data storage device connected to the computer in order to actually have data on the computer." *

I was unable to install Windows XP to my 6.4GB hard drive, as Setup could not access the hard disk, possibly due to LBA errors as the diagnostic test with SeaTools suggested (refer latter part of #51 above).
I wanted to know whether or not my MS-6714's mouse port and network port functioned, so I downloaded Linux from my other computer and burnt it to a CD. With the Linux CD inserted in the CD drive of my MS-6714, I found that my mouse port and network port of my MS-6714 functioned fine.

What I'd like to do now is to see if it would be a good idea to disconnect the 40GB hard drive that I am using at present in this MS-6309 (with 320 SD RAM (64 +256) ), and install it into the MS-6714.

The specs of this 40GB hard drive are :
Model: IC35L060AVV207-0
PN: 13G0221
DPN: 0X0308
Capacity: 40GB
RPM: 7200
Interface: IDE ATA/100

QUESTION 3 : Will I loose the data on this hard drive if I disconnect it?
QUESTION 4 : Will I be able to access the OS that is on this hard drive once it is connected in my MS-6714?


Report •

#58
December 20, 2010 at 18:58:04
"I noticed that Data LifeGuard Diagnostics for DOS's download is a floppy disk creator."
"I am unable at present to create a floppy disk...."
"I also noticed that this Data LifeGuard Diagnostics for DOS's utility is designed for drivers larger than 8.4GB."

There are two Data LifeGuard Diagnostics for DOS downloads on the Western Digital site at that link.
The second one makes a bootable CD.
Click on that link, scroll down on that resulting page to see the directions for making it.

I'm not aware of there being any problem if the "Data LifeGuard Diagnostics for DOS's utility is designed for drivers larger than 8.4GB" for drives smaller than that, as long as they're not 2.1gb or smaller. Old versions of the diagnostics may not have been able to test drives larger than 8.4gb however.

If the floppy drive shows up in My Computer, and if there is no indication of a problem with it in Device Manager, then if you have not used it, it's likely all that's wrong is it's heads are "dirty". You can use a floppy drive head cleaning diskette in the drive to fix that. If you don't have one, someone you know might have one. It might be hard to find a new one these days.
Or you could remove the floppy drive, remove it's top cover, and clean off the heads with a Q tip or a tissue, or similar. There are two heads, one above the other - you clean between them. A bit of alcohol (rubbing or methyl or ethyl) cleans off the stubborn deposits easily .

"Seagate SeaTools did not offer to write zeros to my 6.4GB hard drive..."

If the SeaTools long test finds 100 or more LBA errors, it stops testing when it gets to 100 errors, and there is a message indicating it has.
If there are 100 or more errors, then there is no point in trying to zero fill the drive, because the drive will probably develop more errors rapidly.
If the drive has 99 or fewer errors, the long test will finish, and you'll probably, but not surely, see that they give you the option to zero fill the drive, but it's better if you zero fill the drive with the Lifeguard program since it's not a Seagate or Maxtor drive.

"QUESTION 1 : Fast Boot is enabled, must I keep it that way, or must I disable it?"

Fast Boot merely skips some tests normally done when Fast Boot is disabled so that it takes less time for the computer to do the POST (Power On Self Test). That's usually the default - it's enabled - and I usually leave it enabled.
On computers that have a logo (graphical) screen that appears during the POST, since the logo screen obscures (covers up) part of the text that would normally be seen, if you disable Quick Boot, usually you can see that text (or there may be a setting show / don't show logo screen instead). I have seldom needed to do that.

"QUESTION 2 : Why HDD-0 and not HDD-1?"

It's the standard way . I'm not sure why - perhaps because binary numbering starts with zero, not 1. (0 to - and including - 9, ten numbers, plus A to - and including - F - 16 possibilities instead of 10; you can have up to - and including - 26 drives in Windows).
Dos and Windows does the same thing, and the first software partition on a drive is always partition zero, not 1.

"I was unable to install Windows XP to my 6.4GB hard drive, as Setup could not access the hard disk,..."

The hard drive must be connected properly, the jumper setting on the back of it must be set correctly, and the bios settings must be correct, so that the hard shows as detected up the the bios Setup.

If that is okay, then, yes, the 6.4gb drive is defective enough that the files loaded by the CD, when you boot the computer with the CD, can't find it.

Can you use the 40gb drive ?
Sure, if it passes the SeaTools diagnostics. You probably must use an 80 wire data cable with it, though, in order for it to be able to reach it's max. burst data transfer speed, which is probably 66mb/sec or faster.

"QUESTION 3 : Will I loose the data on this hard drive if I uninstall it?"

If you mean will you lose the data already on the 40gb drive, yes or no - it depends on the situation.

If you delete the existing data on the drive, yes, you WILL lose your personal data, UNLESS you copy the personal data you don't want to lose to elsewhere BEFORE you delete it.

"QUESTION 4 : Will I be able to access the OS that is on this hard drive once it is installed in my MS-6714?"

When you have a Windows installation that was installed on a hard drive when it was connected to one mboard, then you remove that drive and connect it to a different mboard and try to boot from the same Windows installation, if the mboard hardware of the two mboards is more than a little different, XP will often NOT load properly - that's a NORMAL situation . In that case, you must either run a Repair installation of Windows, or the poor second choice is, you install Windows from scratch.

If the 40gb drive already has XP installed on it, and it's working fine, then you can connect it to the MS-6714, and you can either

- run a Repair installation of Windows procedure, which WILL NOT delete your personal data and updates and programs you have added to the Windows installation already on the drive, and you will probably need to install the main chipset drivers for your mboard and for devices on it that XP does not have built in , such as the sound adapter, maybe a network adapter, etc. etc. .

- or - you can install XP from scratch, which WILL DELETE your personal data and updates and programs you have added to the Windows partition on the drive, UNLESS you copy the personal data you don't want to lose to elsewhere BEFORE you install Windows from scratch, AND you will need to install drivers for at least your mboard, the programs that did not come with Windows that you want to use, Windows Updates, etc., etc.
That's MUCH more work !


More info about a Repair installation of Windows XP....

See response 1:
http://www.computing.net/answers/ha...

In this case, ignore the info in that regarding SATA drives and SATA drive controllers.




Report •

#59
December 21, 2010 at 10:57:42
Tubesandwires

Ref. #58 above :

* "There are two Data LifeGuard Diagnostics for DOS downloads on the Western Digital site at that link.
The second one makes a bootable CD." *

Thanks, I don't know why I did not see the second one last time.
I burnt the diagnostics CD and booted my MS-6714 to it.
I got the following message :
_________________________

"NO DRIVE FOUND

ERROR/STATUS CODE:0120"
_________________________

* "The hard drive must be connected properly, the jumper setting on the back of it must be set correctly, and the bios settings must be correct, so that the hard shows as detected up the the bios Setup." *

Please help me with -
1) checking that my 6.4GB hard drive is connected properly - it is presently connected to IDE1 port,
2) checking that my jumper setting on it is set correctly - the little plastic thing is presently on the middle double pins of the five double pins.
3) checking that my BIOS settings are correct - it is presently as follows :
____________________________________________________

CMOS Setup Utility - Copyright (C) 1984-2002 Award Software
Standard CMOS Features

Date (mm:dd:yy) Tue, Dec 21 2010
Time (hh:mm:ss) 20 : 59 :46
> IDE Primary Master [None]
> IDE Primary Slave [None]
> IDE Secondary Master [LG CD-RW CED-8080B]
> IDE Secondary Slave [None]

Drive A [1.44M, 3.5 in.]
Drive B [None]

Video [EGA/VGA]
HaltOn [All, But Keyboard]

Base Memory 640K
Extended Memory 1563648K
Total Memory 1564672K
____________________________________________________

CMOS Setup Utility - Copyright (C) 1984-2002 Award Software
Advanced BIOS Features

Virus Warning [Disabled]
X CPU L1 & L2 Cache Enabled
Fast Boot [Enabled]
1st Boot Device [Floppy]
2nd Boot Device [CDROM]
3rd Boot Device [HDD-O]
Boot Other Device [Enabled]
Swap Floppy [Disabled]
X Seek Floppy Enabled
Boot Up Num-Lock LED [On]
Gate A20 Option [Fast]
Typematic Rate Setting [Disabled]
X Typematic Rate (Chars/Sec) 6
X Typematic Delay(Msec) 250
Security Option [Setup]
APIC Mode [Enabled]
MPS Version Control For OS [1.4]
Boot OS/2 for DRAM>64MB [No]
Full Screen LOGO Show [Enabled]
____________________________________________________


Report •

#60
December 21, 2010 at 12:08:43
The jumper setting you are using is for setting that drive as Master when a slave is present. No jumper is required if you are setting for Master alone.

The data cable must be oriented so that the bump in the connector is facing up at the drive end.

What IDE cable are you using?

If you have TWO IDE controllers be sure you have both enabled or that you are connected to the correct one.


Report •

#61
December 21, 2010 at 16:47:11
There is probably info about how to hook up the drive correctly in the manual for your mboard.

Report •

#62
December 22, 2010 at 08:19:03
OtheHill,

Re. #60 above :
Thank you.

* "The jumper setting you are using is for setting that drive as Master when a slave is present. No jumper is required if you are setting for Master alone." *

QUESTION 1 : Must I remove the jumper or just leave it where it is? (It is presently on the middle double pins of the five double pins, must I remove the plastic bit completely or must I leave it there?).

* "The data cable must be oriented so that the bump in the connector is facing up at the drive end." *

There is only one way I can fit it, because there are 39 pin holes in the connector, and the bump is facing upwards.

* "What IDE cable are you using?" *

I'm using a 40 (39) pin cable.


Tubesandwires,

Re. #61 above :
Thanks.
Please keep in mind that I am an absolute beginner.

* "There is probably info about how to hook up the drive correctly in the manual for your mboard." *

My manual does not have info about how to hook up the drive physically.
It has info on the BIOS Setup :

(Quoted from my manual)
IDE Primary/Secondary Master/Slave
Press PgUp/<+> or PgDn/<-> to select Manual, None or Auto type. Note that the specifications of your drive must match with the drive table. The hard disk will not work properly if you enter improper information for this category. If your hard disk drive type is not matched or listed, you can use Manual to define your own drive type manually.

>>> I selected Manual to define my 6.4GB drive type manually according to the instructions from my manual (see below), but I only typed in what I knew to type in.

(Quoted from my manual)
If you select Manual, related information is asked to be entered to the following items. Enter the information directly from the keyboard. This information should be provided in the documentation from your hard disk vendor or the system manufacturer.

>>> I do not have such documentation. I typed in as follows according to what I read on the actual hard drive :

Access Mode (The settings are CHS, LBA, Large, Auto.) >>> The only way I could get to type manually, was to set the Access Mode to CHS - the LBA, Large and Auto settings would not allow me to do that.
Capacity (The formatted size of the storage device.) >>> The curser skipped this one. Only once I typed in the number 63 next to "Sector" below, did the number 6449 MB appear by itself.
Cylinder (Number of cylinders.) >>> I typed in the number 13328, according to what was printed on the actual hard disk.
Head (Number of heads.) >>> I typed in the number 15, according to what was printed on the hard disk.
Precomp (Write precompensation.) >>> I don't know what to type here.
Landing Zone (Cylinder location of the landing zone.) >>> I don't know what to type here.
Sector (Number of sectors.) >>> I typed in number 63, which automatically made the number 6449 MB appear by itself next to Access Mode above.

After saving the above settings that I typed in, I am still not sure whether the hard drive is detected or not, because
1) I don't know HOW to know from the BIOS whether it is detected or not, and
2) when I ran the diagnostic CD again, the following happened :
When I powered on the computer WITHOUT the diagnostic CD, and inserted the CD only after the prompt "INSERT SYSTEM DISK AND PRESS ENTER" appeared, the message "NO DRIVE FOUND" appeared.
When I powered on the computer WITH the diagnostic CD already inserted, the message "COMMAND ERROR - ERROR/STATUS CODE: 0132" appeared.

(Quoted from my manual)
Hard Disk Connectors: IDE1 & IDE2
The mainboard has a 32-bit Enhanced PCI IDE and Ultra DMA 33/66/
100 controller that provides PIO mode 0~4, Bus Master, and Ultra DMA 33/
66/100 function. You can connect up to four hard disk drives, CD-ROM,
120MB Floppy (reserved for future BIOS) and other devices.
IDE1 (Primary IDE Connector)
The first hard drive should always be connected to IDE1. IDE1 can
connect a Master and a Slave drive. You must configure second hard
drive to Slave mode by setting the jumper accordingly.
IDE2 (Secondary IDE Connector)
IDE2 can also connect a Master and a Slave drive.

The hard drive is conncted to the IDE1 slot.

QUESTION 1 : WHAT must I look for in the BIOS to know for certain whether my 6.4GB hard drive is detected or not? (There is no other hard drive in this computer.)
QUESTION 2 : The following readings were as follows:
> IDE Primary Master [None]
> IDE Primary Slave [None]
> IDE Secondary Master [LG CD-RW CED-8080B]
> IDE Secondary Slave [None]

Must the Primary Master be "[None]"?


Report •

#63
December 22, 2010 at 08:25:08
You need to remove the jumper completely assuming that is the only drive on the cable.

If you look at the paper label on the top of the drive you will find a diagram for the jumper placement. I don't have a 6.4GB available but I did check several other WD drives with 5 pairs of pins and all labels are marked as I described.


Report •

#64
December 22, 2010 at 08:31:58
OtheHill,

Wow that was super quick response. Thanks :-)


Report •

#65
December 22, 2010 at 09:02:50
OtheHill

It is the only drive on the cable.
I found the jumper placement diagram on the paper label on the top of the drive :-)
I removed the jumper completely.
There is NO jumper in the pins now.
QUESTION 1: Must I reconnect it to the computer now without the jumper?


Report •

#66
December 22, 2010 at 09:15:27
Yes, be sure to have the computer unplugged before doing that.

Report •

#67
December 22, 2010 at 11:50:46
OtheHill.

I reconnected the 6.4GB hard drive to the MS-6714 (with the computer unplugged). It is the only hard drive connected.

With the jumper removed, things changed as follows :
1) When I went into Standard CMOS Feature, where there previously was [None] next to IDE Primary Master,
it now showed [WDC WD34AA]

>>> Though I was happy that it showed something, I found it strange that it showed WDC WD34AA, because my 6.4GB hard drive model is WD64AA.

2) When I pressed [Press Enter] next to IDE HDD Auto-Detection, the table changed automatically as follows :
Capacity : 3400 MB
Cylinder : 6588
Head : 16
Precomp : 0
Landing Zone : 6587
Sector : 63

>>> 3400 MB !!! ?

3) I powered on the computer and inserted the Data Lifeguard Diagnostics CD, after the prompt "INSERT SYSTEM DISK AND PRESS ENTER" appeared, and the following message appeared :
______________________________________

"PLEASE CONTACT TECHNICAL SUPPORT AND
REPORT THE FOLLOWING ERROR...

DLGDIAG 5.04f - Data Lifeguard Diagnostics
COMMAND ERROR

ERROR/STATUS CODE: 0132

Hit ANY KEY to continue...
______________________________________

I hit any key and the DOS command prompt appeared.
When I powered on the computer with the Data Lifeguard Diagnostics CD already inserted in the CD drive, the same message appeared.


Report •

#68
December 22, 2010 at 17:14:39
Sounds like either the BIOS on the motherboard can't configure that older drive, or the drive is defective.

You should boot the computer with the Data Lifeguard disk already inserted. Try once more.


Report •

#69
December 22, 2010 at 20:10:43
Make sure the bios Setup is set like this:

Standard CMOS Features

Click on IDE Primary Master to highlight it.

Page Up or Page Down - select Auto

If that wasn't right, you need to change it , and you may need to Save bios settings, the computer will boot, then go back into the bios Setup.
.......

"DLGDIAG 5.04f - Data Lifeguard Diagnostics
COMMAND ERROR

ERROR/STATUS CODE: 0132"

Data Lifeguard Tools 11 and 10 Error Codes
http://support.wdc.com/techinfo/gen...

"132 Command Error Command Aborted. Please ensure that you are using the version of diagnostic utility corresponding to either newer or older Western Digital drives."

So - I was WRONG - it appears you can't use a version of the Lifeguard diagnostics meant for drives > 8.4gb on smaller drives.

Older version of the diagnostics but it can only make a bootable floppy disk:
http://support.wdc.com/product/down...
.......

If you don't want to have to fiddle with the floppy drive - do you have or can you borrow a head cleaning floppy ? - test the drive by booting with the SeaTools CD again.

The bios must see the drive as it's proper size.
Are you SURE the ONLY model number is WD64AA, on the label on the top of the drive ?
Some old drives have multiple model numbers on the label - the drive model can be any one of those.
E.g. WD64AA may have two disks ("platters") inside the drive, WD32AA may have one.



Report •

#70
December 23, 2010 at 08:39:04
OtheHill and Tubesandwires,

Good morning. ( I think it is morning at your side of the world. ...? It is 6:40 PM at my side )

OtheHill,

Thanks.
I tried once more as you suggested in #68 above, by booting the computer with the Data Lifeguard disk already inserted.
I got the same message :
______________________________________

"PLEASE CONTACT TECHNICAL SUPPORT AND
REPORT THE FOLLOWING ERROR...

DLGDIAG 5.04f - Data Lifeguard Diagnostics
COMMAND ERROR

ERROR/STATUS CODE: 0132

Hit ANY KEY to continue...
______________________________________

Then Tubesandwires gave me the link http://support.wdc.com/techinfo/gen... for the error code in question. The problem was that I used the wrong version of diagnostic utility :

Error 0132 :
"Command Error. Command Aborted. Please ensure that you are using the version of diagnostic utility corresponding to either newer or older Western Digital drives."
The status is :
"Re-test Drive with appropriate diagnostic utility".

I must try the Old Data Lifeguard Diagnostic at http://support.wdc.com/product/down... but it can only make a floppy disk and My Computer kept giving me the message "Please insert a disk into drive A", each time when I tried a different floppy disk (I have never needed to use my floppy disk drive in my MS-6309 before).

On Tubesandwires' suggestion I fiddled with my floppy drive in my MS-6309 and cleaned off the heads.
There was also no power connector connected to the floppy drive, so I connected it.

When I tried again, I got the "Please insert a disk into drive A" message again.


Tubesandwires,

Thanks for the Data Lifeguard Tools 11 and 10 Error Codes link, and the link for Old Data Lifeguard Diagnostic.

I fiddled with the floppy drive, because there are no computer people near me. I cleaned the heads.
I also connected a power connector to the floppy drive, because no power connector was connected to it.

I powered the computer on again, double clicked on Floppy A in My Computer, and again got the message "Please insert a disk into drive A", each time when I tried a different floppy disk.

I had a look at my MS-6309's BIOS settings, and they were as follows :

STANDARD CMOS SETUP
Primary Master : User
Primary Slave : CDROM
Secondary Master : Not installed
Secondary Slave : Not installed

Advanced BIOS Features
1st Boot Device : Floppy
2nd Boot Device : IDE-0
3rd Boot Device : CDROM

QUESTION : Are these above settings set to detect my floppy drive?


Report •

#71
December 23, 2010 at 09:08:48
On the very first screen there should be an option to select the floppy drive, along with the CD and hard drives. If you have a standard 1.44 MB 3.5" floppy connected to the end of a floppy cable then you would choose 1.44 MB 3.5" on A.

If you are trying to boot to a blank floppy disk then nothing will happen. Did you make a bootable floppy disk using the downloaded file from WD?

Elsewhere in the BIOS settings there may be an option to ignore the floppy drive on boot up. You don't want to do that.

Right now when you boot to the BIOS is the hard drive being configured as 6.4GB or not. The model number may also be included.

As Tubes asked, are you sure you have a 6.4GB drive?


Report •

#72
December 23, 2010 at 12:38:37
"....I fiddled with my floppy drive in my MS-6309 and cleaned off the heads.
There was also no power connector connected to the floppy drive, so I connected it."

If you cleaned the heads manually, between the heads, then they're probably clean, however sometimes you need to use a bit of alcohol as well to remove stubborn deposits.

If you used a head cleaning floppy in the drive, then the power connector must be connected to the drive before you use the floppy, and you should insert and eject it several times, or try to access the drive in Windows several times, so that the floppy disk is spun a reasonable amount of times - the led on the front of the drive when it's on indicates when the motor is actually spinning the disk.
If the led never comes on when you do that, something is wrong, with the drive, or with it's data cable connection.

There are several things that must be right in order for a floppy disk to be detected properly in Windows.

- there must be nothing wrong with the floppy drive itself.

- the bios Setup must be set properly

"Are these above settings set to detect my floppy drive?"

Yes, if, as OtheHill said, the type of floppy drive is set to 1.44 MB 3.5" in the bios.

- most bioses won't show the floppy drive as being detected in the bios Setup unless the power connector is connected to it properly, but in some older bioses, it will show up there even if it isn't.
On some floppy drives, there is no plastic shroud around the power pins on the drive that make it impossible to plug the power connector in so it's not plugged in properly. If your floppy drive has no shroud around the pins, if the power connector has ever been plugged in such that it's misplaced on the pins and then run the computer was run with it that way, the circuits on the drive's board are likely to have been fried, and if so, the floppy drive will never work properly after that, on any computer.

- the floppy drive's data cable connectors must be plugged in, in the same direction, on both the floppy data header on the mboard and on the drive. On some floppy drives, there is no plastic shroud around the data pins on the drive that make it impossible to plug the connector in so it's not lined up with the pins, or if there is, there may not be an external tab on the connector that must line up with the slot in the shroud, so you can install the connector backwards.
There is a stripe along one side of the data cable that must be on the same side on both ends of the data cable where the connectors are plugged in.
On the floppy drive, the stripe is usually next to the power connector when the connector is plugged in the right direction. On the mboard floppy data header, the stripe must be on the pin one end of the data header - that's usually marked with a 1 or an arrowhead printed on the mboard, or if not that's shown there, it's shown in the mboard manual.
The end connector that plugs into the mboard must be on the end that has no wires in the data cable that change positions between there and the middle connector on a 3 connector data cable. A single floppy drive needs to be plugged into the end connector on the other end of the data cable, not the middle connector on a 3 connector data cable.
If one of the two data cable's connectors is plugged in backwards, if there is nothing else wrong, the led on the front of the floppy drive will be on all the time the computer is running, even when it has no floppy disk in it (you probably do not presently have that problem, because the floppy drive is showing up in Windows).

- this is about IDE data cables but the same thing applies to 34 wire floppy data cables

It is common to un-intentionally damage IDE data cables, especially while removing them ....... . What usually happens is the cable is ripped at either edge and the wires there are either damaged or severed, often right at a connector or under it's cable clamp there, where it's hard to see - if a wire is severed but it's ends are touching, the connection is intermittent, rather than being reliable.
Another common thing is for the data cable to be separated from the connector contacts a bit after you have removed a cable - there should be no gap between the data cable and the connector - if there is press the cable against the connector to eliminate the gap.

Try another data cable if in doubt.
...

OtheHill said:

"If you are trying to boot to a blank floppy disk then nothing will happen."

If nothing is wrong with the floppy drive or the data cable's connection, then Windows will display a message saying the floppy disk is not Formatted, if the disk is blank, or if it isn't blank but it has bad sectors on it that are in certain places on the disk - already formatted floppy disks can spontaneously develop bad sectors as time goes by.


"Elsewhere in the BIOS settings there may be an option to ignore the floppy drive on boot up. You don't want to do that."

That's usually disabled by default, if present, and I haven't come across any bios that requires that that be enabled in order for Windows to detect a floppy disk that's in the drive.

"...are you sure you have a 6.4GB drive?"

See the very last part of response 69.
.....

"I had a look at my MS-6309's BIOS settings, and they were as follows :

STANDARD CMOS SETUP
Primary Master : User
Primary Slave : CDROM
Secondary Master : Not installed
Secondary Slave : Not installed"

It's preferable you have the hard drive's connection set to Auto, not User, although User MIGHT be okay, after you have used the bios's detect IDE drive settings feature - by the way that's not mentioned in the manual for your mboard.

You presently have both drives connected to the Primary data cable connection.

You must use either Master with Slave - have a jumper on the hard drive on the middle two pins when you have another drive on the same data cable, and the other drive must be set to Slave, or both drives must be jumpered Cable Select, otherwise the optical drive or the hard drive may not be detected properly, by the bios, or by Windows.

Or, you set the drive to Master, Single - you have no jumper on the drive when it's by itself on the Primary data cable connection, and you connect the optical drive to the secondary IDE header and jumper it as Master, or you jumper both drives Cable Select, an have them on the end connector, not the middle connector, on a 3 connector data cable, when they're by themselves on the data cable.


Report •

#73
December 23, 2010 at 12:43:12
"If nothing is wrong with the floppy drive or the data cable's connection, then Windows will display a message saying the floppy disk is not Formatted, if the disk is blank, or if it isn't blank but it has bad sectors on it that are in certain places on the disk - already formatted floppy disks can spontaneously develop bad sectors as time goes by".

I was assuming the floppy disk was being booted to at start up.



Report •

#74
December 23, 2010 at 15:09:09
OtheHill,

In response to #71 above.

Thanks.

* "Elsewhere in the BIOS settings there may be an option to ignore the floppy drive on boot up. You don't want to do that." *

I did not find such an option.

* "On the very first screen there should be an option to select the floppy drive, along with the CD and hard drives. If you have a standard 1.44 MB 3.5" floppy connected to the end of a floppy cable then you would choose 1.44 MB 3.5" on A." *

I have a standard 1.44 MB 3.5" floppy connected to the end of a floppy cable.

The option was already selected as follows :

STANDARD CMOS SETUP
Primary Master : User
Primary Slave : CDROM
Secondary Master : Not installed
Secondary Slave : Not installed
Floppy Drive A : 1.44 MB 3.5
Floppy Drive B : Not installed

and

Advanced BIOS Features
1st Boot Device : Floppy
2nd Boot Device : IDE-0
3rd Boot Device : CDROM.

* "If you are trying to boot to a blank floppy disk then nothing will happen. Did you make a bootable floppy disk using the downloaded file from WD?" *

To recap, I wanted to use the Old Data Lifeguard Diagnostic to run a test on my 6.4GB hard drive that's in my MS-6714 (the computer that I am trying to ressurrect), but in order to do this I needed to get the diagnostic on to a floppy disk first, using the downloaded file from WD, but I was UNABLE to do this from WD, because whenever I had a floppy disk inserted in the floppy drive of my current computer (MS-6309), I got the message "Please insert a disk into drive A".
So what I meant was that my current computer (MS-6309) did not let me even read any of the floppy disks that I inserted, nor save any files to any of the floppy disks, example a small WordPad file, so how could I make a bootable floppy disk then if the floppy drive didn't even read a disk or save a small WordPad file?
That was the reason why I removed the floppy drive, removed it's top cover, and cleaned off the heads as Tubesandwires suggested,
but after having done that and reconnecting it and connecting the power cable to it, and powering up the computer, I still was unable to read or write to any of the floppy disks inserted, and kept getting the message "Please insert a disk into drive A" whenever I tried.
So either
- all my 1.44 MB disks are faulty, or
- I did not clean the floppy drive heads properly, or
- the BIOS settings are incorrect, or
- I did not connect the floppy drive data cable and power cable properly, or
- the floppy drive data cable or/and power cable is/are faulty, or
- the floppy drive is disfunctional, or
- there's something else that I am missing.

I am wondering if the floppy drive in my MS-6714 (the computer which I am trying to ressurrect) is functional, and whether I could simply remove it and connect it to my MS-6309 so that I could make a bootable floppy disk of the Old Data Lifeguard Diagnostic with my MS-6309,

but I am not up to it at this stage.

* "Right now when you boot to the BIOS is the hard drive being configured as 6.4GB or not. The model number may also be included." *

No, right now it is not configured to 6.4GB, because, as explained in #67 above, it autiomatically configured to 3400 MB only, when I pressed the [Press Enter] option that was written next to "IDE HDD Auto-Detection", like so :
"IDE HDD Auto-Detection [Press Enter]"
Capacity : 3400 MB

The model number is included - it automatically read as follows in the BIOS :
> IDE Primary Master [WDC WD34AA],

but on the label of the hard drive it reads WD64AA (see below).

* "As Tubes asked, are you sure you have a 6.4GB drive? "

According to the information written on the label of the hard drive, it appears to be a 6.4GB hard drive.
Following is all the information on the label (other than stamps of approval and jumper settings) :

Western Digital
_________________________

Manufacturer: Western Digital
Model: WD64AA-00AAA
Enhanced IDE Hard Drive
_________________________
Drive parameters:
13328 cyl
15 heads
63 spt
6448.6 MB

S/N: WM653
319 7507

MDL: WD64AA
-00AAA4

DATE: 30 JAN 2000

DCM: ARBA
EVHAO
_________________________

WD P/N: WD64AA-00AAA4

40 PIN CONNECTOR


What I'd like to do now is to remove this so-called 6.4GB hard drive, and to forget about it for a while, and to connect the 40 pin 40GB ATA/ IDE hard drive that is in my MS-6309 (my current computer), to my MS-6714 (the computer that I am trying to ressurect).

So I need to know the following :

QUESTION 1 : What are my chances of loosing my data on the 40GB drive if I remove it from my current computer (MS-6309) and connect it to my MS-6714?


Report •

#75
December 23, 2010 at 17:20:27
Tubesandwires,

:-)
Thanks.
In reply to #72 above.

I was unable to get a head cleaning floppy because there are no computer guys here.
I did not have alcohol to clean the heads with either (other than vodka and gin, and there's whiskey here - but I don't know if I could use that), but I did not see stubborn deposits.
I just cleaned it manually, between the heads.

The LED never came on at any stage when I inserted different floppy disks.

The type of floppy drive is set to 1.44 MB 3.5" in the bios.

"- most bioses won't show the floppy drive as being detected in the bios Setup unless the power connector is connected to it properly, but in some older bioses, it will show up there even if it isn't."

QUESTION 1 : WHERE in the BIOS should it show the floppy drive as being detected?
Is it in the following table?

STANDARD CMOS SETUP
Primary Master : User
Primary Slave : CDROM
Secondary Master : Not installed
Secondary Slave : Not installed
Floppy Drive A : 1.44 MB 3.5
Floppy Drive B : Not installed

You gave me lots of interesting info concerning connecting the cables for the floppy drive. Thanks. I shall have to go check again. I'm learning a lot now. Yay. Thanks.

QUESTION 2: Can the circuits on the floppy drive's board fry if the DATA connectors are the wrong way around, or will it then just cause the LED on the front of the floppy drive to be on all the time the computer is running (I do not presently have that problem) ?

" ... (you probably do not presently have that problem, because the floppy drive is showing up in Windows)."

QUESTION 3 : Why did you write, "because the floppy drive is showing up in Windows" - is it because I see a picture of a floppy drive in My Computer which reads 3.5 Floppy (A:) - does that mean it shows up in Windows (and is that why, when I double click on it, I get the message "Please insert a disk into drive A")?

In reply to #69.
"The bios must see the drive as it's proper size.
Are you SURE the ONLY model number is WD64AA, on the label on the top of the drive ?
Some old drives have multiple model numbers on the label - the drive model can be any one of those.
E.g. WD64AA may have two disks ("platters") inside the drive, WD32AA may have one. "

Following is all the information on the label (other than stamps of approval and jumper settings) :

Western Digital
_________________________

Manufacturer: Western Digital
Model: WD64AA-00AAA
Enhanced IDE Hard Drive
_________________________
Drive parameters:
13328 cyl
15 heads
63 spt
6448.6 MB

S/N: WM653
319 7507

MDL: WD64AA
-00AAA4

DATE: 30 JAN 2000

DCM: ARBA
EVHAO
_________________________

WD P/N: WD64AA-00AAA4

40 PIN CONNECTOR

So I don't understand why it showed WDC WD34AA and 3400 MB in the BIOS..

What I'd like to do now is to remove the above 6.4GB hard drive, and to forget about it for a while, and to connect the 40 pin 40GB ATA/ IDE hard drive that is in my MS-6309 (my current computer), to my MS-6714 (the computer that I am trying to ressurect).

So I need to know the following :

QUESTION 4 : What are my chances of loosing my personal data (not the OS) on the 40GB drive if I remove it from my current 327.152 KB RAM (64 +256) computer (MS-6309) and connect it to my 1.5 GB RAM MS-6714 that I am trying to ressurrect?


Report •

#76
December 23, 2010 at 17:28:04
OtheHill

In response to #73 above,

"I was assuming the floppy disk was being booted to at start up.",

my apologies if I did not explain my situation properly.


Report •

#77
December 23, 2010 at 19:37:31
If you are trying to run Western Digital tools for DOS you need to run it from the boot.

Report •

#78
December 24, 2010 at 00:33:57
In response to #77.

OtheHill,

Thanks.
The front LED of the floppy drive never came on while the computer was running.
I will check if my floppy drive is connected properly and whether the cables are functional or not, and whether there is a plastic shroud around the pins or not, keeping in mind that there were cases where power connectors had been plugged in such a way that they were misplaced on the pins, causing the circuits on the boards of the floppy drives to fry.


Report •

#79
December 24, 2010 at 04:51:34
Might be easier to acquire a different hard drive and go from there.

Report •

#80
December 24, 2010 at 09:06:41
Vodka, gin, and whiskey are ethyl alcohol + water + tiny amounts of other substances. You could use any of those you mentioned to clean the heads, as long as you wipe off the heads after you use them to remove any possible tiny amount of residue.

"The LED never came on at any stage when I inserted different floppy disks."
"The front LED of the floppy drive never came on while the computer was running."

If the power connector is properly connected to the drive, then the board on the floppy drive is fried.
The led should come on when you first insert a disk while the computer is running, . even when only the power connector is connected. There's a tiny chance there may be a problem with the data cable that could cause the led to not come on - you could try disconnecting the data cable to it, but I doubt the situation will change.

"The type of floppy drive is set to 1.44 MB 3.5" in the bios."

Oops - I see that's in the info you have already provided, as in, in info the same as the following.

"QUESTION 1 : WHERE in the BIOS should it show the floppy drive as being detected?
Is it in the following table?

STANDARD CMOS SETUP
Primary Master : User
Primary Slave : CDROM
Secondary Master : Not installed
Secondary Slave : Not installed
Floppy Drive A : 1.44 MB 3.5
Floppy Drive B : Not installed "

Some newer bioses auto detect the floppy drive, once you have set the bios to allow it to be detected - if it's not actually detected, the setting in the bios has reverts to None or similar, when you look in the bios after that.
Older bioses may not auto detect the drive, and the bios settings may show the floppy drive despite the fact the computer isn't actually detecting it.

"QUESTION 2: Can the circuits on the floppy drive's board fry if the DATA connectors are the wrong way around, or will it then just cause the LED on the front of the floppy drive to be on all the time the computer is running (I do not presently have that problem) ?"

The data connection wiring for floppy drives and IDE drives was deliberately designed to be "dummy proof " - connecting a connector backwards on the header will not harm the floppy drive or the IDE drive or the data header's circuits, as long as the connector is plugged into all the pins - it isn't misplaced on the pins such that some pins are not plugged in.

"" ... (you probably do not presently have that problem, because the floppy drive is showing up in Windows)."

QUESTION 3 : Why did you write, "because the floppy drive is showing up in Windows" - is it because I see a picture of a floppy drive in My Computer which reads 3.5 Floppy (A:) - does that mean it shows up in Windows (and is that why, when I double click on it, I get the message "Please insert a disk into drive A")?"

Windows will show a floppy drive icon if the mboard's bios "says" the computer has one connected to it.
You can get the "Please insert a disk into drive A" message in Windows after you insert a floppy disk in it and try to access the floppy drive
- if the computer has an older bios version and the floppy drive has not actually been detected
- if the floppy drive is actually being detected but there's something wrong with the data cable connection, or there's something wrong with the drive's board.

In your case, I suspect the board on the drive is fried.
The most common cause of that is the power connection on the floppy drive has no plastic shroud that prevents you from mis-placing the power connector on the pins, and someone has plugged in the connector such that not all of the pins were in the connector and then ran the computer
- or - someone has installed a mounting screw at one time or another in the wrong place, or the screw was too long, and the screw shorted something on the drive's board.

If the ONLY model number on the drive's label is WD64AA, then the bios should detect the parameters for a 6.4gb drive.

You could try
- set the detection of the drive in the bios to AUTO rather than USER
- set the detection of the drive to Manual, - Access mode LBA - and enter the parameters listed on the drive's label in the bios. The drive's total capacity will probably be filled in automatically after you have entered the parameters.
In either case, Save bios settings.

There is another possibility but that may only be available when you are able to use the older WD diagnostics program.
In some diagnostics programs, you can set the drive to it's "native" or similar mode (6.4gb parameters in this case) or a lesser mode (e.g. 3.2gb parameters in this case).
If someone has set the drive to a lesser mode, then that's the only thing the bios can detect, unless the drive is re-set to it's "native" mode or similar.

Try booting with the SeaTools diagnostics CD again. If the drive passes the long test you can use it. If it doesn't, it's not recommended that you use it.
If it does pass, if it's seen seen by the bios as 3.2gb (after you have tried setting the bios to Auto detect, or after you have set the bios to Manual detect and have entered the parameters on the label) you MAY be able to re-set the drive to it's proper parameters with SeaTools.
.......

"What I'd like to do now is to remove the above 6.4GB hard drive, and to forget about it for a while, and to connect the 40 pin 40GB ATA/ IDE hard drive...."


QUESTION 4 : What are my chances of loosing my personal data (not the OS) on the 40GB drive if I remove it from my current 327.152 KB RAM (64 +256) computer (MS-6309) and connect it to my 1.5 GB RAM MS-6714 that I am trying to ressurrect?"

I've already answered that.
See response 58 starting at

"QUESTION 3 : Will I loose the data on this hard drive if I uninstall it?"

Read all of the info to the end of that response.


Report •

#81
December 24, 2010 at 16:29:52
Tubesandwires,

In response to #80.

Yip I also suspect that the board of the floppy drive is fried, unless the powerchord is faulty.

The results :
- There was 'half' a plastic shroud around the pins of the drive, so the power connector plugged in okayish.
- There was no plastic shroud around the data header on the drive.
- There was no external tab on the connector that lined up with the slot in the shroud of the drive, but the stripes along the one side of the data cable were on the same side of both ends of the data cable where the connectors were plugged in - the stripe on the cable end plugged in the floppy drive was next to the power connector.
- The end connector plugged into the motherboard was on the end that had no wires in the data cable that change positions between there and the middle connector on a 3 connector data cable.
- The floppy drive (single) was plugged into the end connector on the other end of the data cable (not the middle connector).
- I checked that the data cable was not separated from the connector contacts - that there was no gap between the data cable and the connector - I pressed the cable against the connectors nicely.
- The data cable did not appear ripped at either edge, unless it was at a place where it was hard to see, so for in case it was ripped, I
- tried the floppy drive data cable that was in my other computer (MS-6714), which was in a better looking condition, and I made sure to connect it properly as you described, and that's when I noticed that the end connector on this data cable, that needed to be plugged into the floppy drive, would not fit, because some of the pins of the floppy drive data header were skew and would not line up properly in certain places with the connector of the nicer data cable - I did not want to force anything so I did not connect this cable end to the drive (the other end fitted properly to the mainboard header).

QUESTION 1 : Why/how does the original cable connector fit in the drive pins while some of the pins are so skew?

"The led should come on when you first insert a disk while the computer is running, . even when only the power connector is connected. There's a tiny chance there may be a problem with the data cable that could cause the led to not come on - you could try disconnecting the data cable to it, but I doubt the situation will change."

Referring to the 1st paragraph of this post, none of those steps taken caused the LED to come on.

"If the power connector is properly connected to the drive, then the board on the floppy drive is fried."

It appeared to be connected properly - I disconnected and reconnected it just for in case it wasn't.

QUESTION 2: If the power connector to the floppy drive was faulty, could the other little power connector, that is attached to the bigger power connector plugged into the hard disk, be used to power the floppy drive?

"Vodka, gin, and whiskey are ethyl alcohol + water + tiny amounts of other substances. You could use any of those you mentioned to clean the heads, as long as you wipe off the heads after you use them to remove any possible tiny amount of residue."

OK. Thanks.

Thanks for also answering all my other questions, and for providing more information.

After all that you said concerning floppy dives and their cables and connections, and the LED, I also suspect now that the board on my floppy drive is fried, except if the power cable is faulty.

I listened very closely and there was no sound from the floppy drive.

QUESTION 3 : Would it make a sound if it had life in it?

The latter paragraphs :

"If the ONLY model number on the drive's label is WD64AA, then ...
...
...
...
... you MAY be able to re-set the drive to it's proper parameters with SeaTools."

Thanks for this interesting information - I haven't tried it yet, but plan to do so.

"I've already answered that.
See response 58 starting at

"QUESTION 3 : Will I loose the data on this hard drive if I uninstall it?"

Read all of the info to the end of that response."

Oops. Yes.

Thank you for so much help !
You have helped me a long way so far !
:-)


Report •

#82
December 24, 2010 at 16:41:36
OtheHill,

Thanks.

In response to #79.

"Might be easier to acquire a different hard drive and go from there."

I want to investigate the question of connecting my 40GB hard drive to my MS-6714 some more.

Thank you for all your help so far.
You have helped me learn much since I started this thread.
I appreciate it very much.
:-)


Report •

#83
December 25, 2010 at 13:27:57
I would like to point out that there are very people who reply to our (those of us who frequently answer) posts in as much detail as you have - we appreciate that.
Our biggest problem is probably that those who start a subject usually don't provide enough information or feedback to our responses, I suspect often because they're just too lazy to do so.
.....

"There was no plastic shroud around the data header on the drive."

On the drive the "shroud" isn't a separate piece like it is for the mboard data header - it's molded into the plastic surrounding the data pins - in either case, the same purpose is served - you can't plug in a connector such that it isn't on all the pins.
Although, some really old floppy drives don't even have that.

"There was no external tab on the connector that lined up with the slot in the shroud of the drive...."

That's common for the connectors on 40 wire data cables. The 6.4gb drive can probably run no faster that 33mb/sec burst data transfer speed, and in that case does not have to be connected to an 80 wire data cable, unless it's on the same cable as a drive that requires an 80 wire data cable. The 40gb drive probably requires an 80 wire data cable.

" I checked that the data cable was not separated from the connector contacts - that there was no gap between the data cable and the connector - I pressed the cable against the connectors nicely."

Good.

" The data cable did not appear ripped at either edge, unless it was at a place where it was hard to see, so for in case it was ripped..."

40 wire data cables are tougher. If the cable is ripped at either edge, it's often right at a connector where it's supposed to connect to the contact in the connector where it's pressed into the cable, where it's hard to see, especially if there is a cable clamp piece over the cable at the connector (the end connectors usually have that - the middle connector may not).

"....I noticed that the end connector on this data cable, that needed to be plugged into the floppy drive, would not fit, because some of the pins of the floppy drive data header were skew and would not line up properly..."

That's very common for both the data pins on floppy drives and on IDE drives. That's caused by someone having pulled on a connector or the data cable on one side rather than in the middle, such that the connector is pulled out crooked.
You can straighten out the pins easily (unplug the power connector to the drive, then....) by placing something beside the bent pin that will fit between pins, such as a tiny screwdriver (e.g. from an inexpensive "dollar" store jeweler's screwdriver set) with it's tip at the base of the pin on the side it is bent towards, and levering the pin to straighten it's position. Usually the pins are bent at the base of them, the pin otherwise is fairly straight. When the pins are spaced evenly again, it's then easy to plug in any connector.

(Unplug or plug in the power connector to the drives ONLY when the AC power to the case has been disconnected or has been switched off.)

"QUESTION 1 : Why/how does the original cable connector fit in the drive pins while some of the pins are so skew?"

A data cable that has been plugged in more times is likely to have looser female metal ends on the wires inside the holes in the connectors than a data cable that has been used less often.

You can usually plug in any connector onto pins that are bent if you plug it in crooked by taking into account which direction they're bent to rather that plugging in straight on.

"QUESTION 2: If the power connector to the floppy drive was faulty, could the other little power connector, that is attached to the bigger power connector plugged into the hard disk, be used to power the floppy drive?"

It's possible that if the power connector has been plugged in and unplugged a lot , that it has looser female metal ends on the wires inside the holes in the connector,
and it's possible for the tang on those metal wire ends that are supposed to lock it into the connector are broken or bent - in that case the wire with the problem tang will move when you plug it in or when you gently pull on an individual wire - that's obvious - but otherwise you usually don't have problems with wire connectors.

Yes, you could try plugging in any power connector that's the same shape and size. The shapes of the plastic of all power connectors on the power supply's wiring are also deliberately designed to be "dummy proof" - you can't physically plug them into the wrong socket on a drive (if it has a shroud, or if the surrounding plastic prevents that) or on the mboard.

"I listened very closely and there was no sound from the floppy drive.

QUESTION 3 : Would it make a sound if it had life in it?"

It makes a mechanical sound when you first insert a disk whether the drive is electrically working or not - that's the internal mechanism positioning the floppy disk downwards and moving aside the shutter on the disk so that the heads can read it.
After that....
- as far as it spinning is concerned, it usually doesn't make much if any sound if the drive is working, unless the floppy disk inside is physically noisy when it is being spun. You might hear a soft swish sound.
- you can often hear the head positioning motor moving the heads when you try to access the disk in Windows, or if the disk is already inserted while booting - a soft clacking or hum sound.

If when you compare the position of floppy disk when it is first inserted to when you eject it , if you find that it has not moved much if at all, then the motor inside the drive has not spun the disk at all.


Report •

#84
December 26, 2010 at 05:17:37
Tubesandwires,

In response to #83.

Thanks. I am so grateful that there is an expert in this rushed world who takes time to help a beginner like me, and to read all the time consuming details in my posts, and then respond with detailed, helpful answers and information that make things so much easier for me to understand and do. It has given me confidence and opened a new exiting world for me!

It still amazes me that someone on the other side of the planet, who therefore cannot physically see my computer hardware, have helped me see and achieve so much, step by step, without anyone's help here, and that all done through written communication only.

It encouraged me to persist, where otherwise I may have been discouraged to consider that I was wasting my time trying to fix old equipment. Instead I have developed a great interest in the world of computers as your responses started coming my way, and there is no stopping me now.

I still believe that if it can do the job, irrespective of its age, then why not use it (like a vintage Ford that still goes well - better than some modern vehicles when it comes to endurance).

Thanks for the info in #83.

Before I continue with the hard drive matter, I want to stick with the floppy drive for a moment still, just to suss out a few more things, because what can I lose.

(I may yet send a customized old Ford F250 with a super charged six cylinder (because we didn't get them with V8's in SA) engine to the moon, launched with a floppy in a floppy drive, one day - one never knows)

"Yes, you could try plugging in any power connector that's the same shape and size."

To eliminate my curiosity of whether the power connector was faulty or not, I unplugged it from the floppy drive, and connected the other power connector to the floppy drive, powered the computer on again, and the LED still did not light up.

QUESTION 1 : Am I correct in thinking that if the power cable and socket of the floppy drive was fine, and the circuit board of the floppy drive was fine, but the data cable or connector or data header of the floppy drive was faulty, that the LED would light up if the computer was powered on ?

QUESTION 2 : If I am correct in thinking what I am thinking in question 1 above, then am I correct in thinking that the resuts all indicate that the circuit board of the floppy drive is probably fried?

QUESTION 3 : I just had an idea (only now) - my MS-67I4 has a floppy drive in it! I never checked that floppy drive's LED before, so I quickly powered it on and saw that the LED came on - is it a good idea to remove it and connect it in place of the floppy drive in question 1 & 2 above (so I can try get the Old Data Lifeguard Diagnostic - just to ease my curiosity of what the results of the test on my 6.4GB hard drive would be) ?


Report •

#85
December 26, 2010 at 07:29:18
What can be accomplished by running the fitness utility. Either the drive is defective, or the BIOS can't configure that drive. If you still wish to pursue the floppy drive then read the following.

The light on the floppy going on is a function of one of the BIOS settings. If you set the floppy drive as the first boot device it will be checked to see if a bootable disk is in place.

I am not sure connecting the data cable on a floppy drive wrong will ruin the drive. I have seen that condition many times. Correcting the cable fixed the functioning of the drive. When the cable was connected at the correct end but turned 180 degrees the light on the floppy stayed on continuously.

Are you sure you don't have the floppy data cable turned end for end? Does the cable have more than two connectors on it? If so, the connector that is farthest from the others goes to the motherboard. As tubes as stated above, the red line indicates #1 wire. The red line goes to the left side when looking at the connector with the notch in it to the bottom. If the cable has TWO 3.5" floppy connectors the one on the end is the A and the other is the B in the BIOS settings.


Report •

#86
December 26, 2010 at 11:38:13
"......I unplugged it from the floppy drive, and connected the other power connector to the floppy drive, powered the computer on again, and the LED still did not light up.

QUESTION 1 : Am I correct in thinking that if the power cable and socket of the floppy drive was fine, and the circuit board of the floppy drive was fine, but the data cable or connector or data header of the floppy drive was faulty, that the LED would light up if the computer was powered on ? "

When you have tried two different power connectors from the PS with the drive, the chances of there being something wrong with both of them is almost nil.
When the computer is running and the floppy drive has been enabled properly in the bios Setup settings, if there is nothing wrong with the drive's circuit board, the led should come on briefly when you first insert a floppy disk even when only the power connector is connected to the drive. Whether or not a data cable connection has a problem at the same time should usually have no effect on whether the led comes on, but in theory it's possible it may not come on if there is a short between wires in the data cable (extremely unlikely), or if the connector was not on all the pins.
In theory it's possible for the mboard (or drive controller card in a mboard slot) circuits connected to the floppy (or IDE) data header to have been damaged, but I have fiddled with maybe a hundred computers and I've never encountered that.

"QUESTION 2 : If I am correct in thinking what I am thinking in question 1 above, then am I correct in thinking that the resuts all indicate that the circuit board of the floppy drive is probably fried?"

I think that, going by the info you have provided so far, you have already confirmed the circuit board is fried.

"QUESTION 3 : I just had an idea (only now) - my MS-67I4 has a floppy drive in it! I never checked that floppy drive's LED before, so I quickly powered it on and saw that the LED came on - is it a good idea to remove it and connect it in place of the floppy drive in question 1 & 2 above (so I can try get the Old Data Lifeguard Diagnostic - just to ease my curiosity of what the results of the test on my 6.4GB hard drive would be) ?"

If the floppy drive on the other computer is working fine, then, yes. it's a good idea to remove it and try connecting it to the 6714, and testing the 6.4gb drive with the older floppy bootable diagnostics.

NOTE that the diagnostics can only detect that the drive is presently using the size and parameters the bios is presently detecting (you could try setting the drive detection in the bios to Auto detection, or Manual detection - LBA - and type in the parameters on the label), but you MAY be able to change the mode the drive is in with a feature available in the diagnostics, which will change the size and parameters the bios detects.
(See the part in response 80 starting at:
There is another possibility but that may only be available when you are able to use the older WD diagnostics program.)

Keep in mind that you should always remove the AC power cord to the computer, or switch off the connection of the AC power source to the computer otherwise, whenever you are going to be unplugging or plugging in anything that connects to the mboard or the power supply inside the computer case. ATX "family" mboards are always powered in some places by ATX power supplies, even when the computer is not running, and merely unplugging or plugging in a power connector to a drive can damage the power supply, if the PS is still receiving live AC power.

Both the mboards you have mentioned have ATX (or MATX - MicroATX) mboards. Almost all mboards made in 2000 or later have ATX "family" mboards.


Report •

#87
December 29, 2010 at 01:03:00
OtheHill,

In response to #85.

"What can be accomplished by running the fitness utility."

I do not understand what you meant by "fitness utility".

"The light on the floppy going on is a function of one of the BIOS settings."

I didn't know this for sure. I wondered whether or not, if the floppy drive was functional and had only the power connector connected to it, the LED would come on, without the data cable connected - I did not know that the LED was a function of one of the BIOS settings. Thanks.

QUESTION 1 : Does this mean that, on a functional floppy drive, the LED goes on only once the BIOS has detected it?

"I am not sure connecting the data cable on a floppy drive wrong will ruin the drive. I have seen that condition many times. Correcting the cable fixed the functioning of the drive. When the cable was connected at the correct end but turned 180 degrees the light on the floppy stayed on continuously."

That's interesting, thanks.

"Does the cable have more than two connectors on it?"

Yes, it has three connectors on it.

"If so, the connector that is farthest from the others goes to the motherboard."

That's interesting, I didn't know to look at it that way too. Thanks.

"As tubes as stated above, the red line indicates #1 wire."

QUESTION 2 : I'm not sure if I understand this correctly, does it indicate #1 wire as the no. 1 wire of the 40 (or 80) wires?

"The red line goes to the left side when looking at the connector with the notch in it to the bottom."

I understand that.

"If the cable has TWO 3.5" floppy connectors the one on the end is the A and the other is the B in the BIOS settings."

I didn't know that, thanks.

"Are you sure you don't have the floppy data cable turned end for end?"

Yes, now I am. I made sure that I understood and learned from the above posts to connect them correctly. Thank you.


Report •

#88
December 29, 2010 at 02:10:38
Yay!

I removed the fried floppy drive from my current computer (MS-6309), then took the floppy drive from my MS-6714 (the computer that I am trying to resurrect), put it in my current computer, and it worked first time!

I have concluded that someone connected the power connector the wrong way around and fried it, because compared to the functional floppy drive, half of the shroud was gone, and the pins were not level with one another and not straight up, but each one was in a different direction and all at a slight angle upwards, so that when I connected the power connector to it (the correct way around), the connector stood at a slight angle and was easy to wiggle up and down.

Enough of that floppy drive.

I had to go through a bunch of old floppy's to find one that I could use. I found one to format and it took a LONG time to format - which suddenly made me appreciate my current 320GB MS-6309 computer with the convenience of a CD drive, thinking of the days before CD's arrived here in South-Africa, and how long it took to format floppies, and the space it took to store so many of them, and thinking of one Windows OS on several floppy disks,
and if all goes well as it did so far, thanks to your help, then soon I will have a fully functional 2GB computer (my MS-6714).

It was all worth it getting my floppy drive to work, because I found forgotten document files from way back, of research work that I did then, which I can now use, and picture files of photographs.

So now next I am going to try to download the Old Data Lifeguard Diagnostic to my floppy disk.

I will let you know what happened.


Report •

#89
January 3, 2011 at 06:59:30
Hi,

I tried to download the Old Data Lifeguard Diagnostic to a floppy disk.

A short summarized history of what happened since my first attempt of creating a bootable floppy disk :

The first time when I inserted the floppy on which I tried to install the Old Data Lifeguard Diagnostic, I got the message,
"Verifying DMI Pool Data............
NTLDR is missing
Press any key to restart",
and after spending time on the net I learned that it did not make a bootable disk.

Then I spent some time on learning what "boot" and "bootable" means, until I understood it.

Several times I tried to make a bootable floppy with Western Digital, but no luck, there was just no way I could run the Dlgdiag.exe file, and if it was supposed to give me a Diskette Creator icon on my desktop, it didn't. There was no file to run on the Old Data Lifeguard Diagnostic, and the Data Lifeguard Diagnostic for DOS gave me the message, "The application could not be installed because the AIR file is damaged. Try obtaining a new AIR file from the application author."

Then I went to www.bootdisk.com to try to make a bootable floppy, with the idea of preparing a floppy disk to make it bootable, and then after the preparation, copying the WD files onto the disk,

and it all went well for a while until I got the message,
"Disk error on track 57, head 1
Error in reading".

I tried with all the other few old floppies that I had and got similar messages for each one I inserted - "Disk error on track (so and so)...".

So I wondered whether the problems lied with my floppy disks or not.

Then I looked at MaxBlast 3 to try to make a bootable floppy,
but then when, at 99%, it gave me the message, "Write error creating diskette. Please try a different diskette.", I realized that my floppy disks were 1.44 MB floppies, and the maxblast3.zip was 1.57 MB.

I also looked at http://www.hitachigst.com/support/d... , and at http://www.hitachigst.com/support/d... , where it's written,
"Having trouble creating a bootable diskette? The Windows version of the Drive Fitness Test (DFT) bootable diskette and the Feature Tool bootable diskette are created using InstallShield®. If you receive errors when you are trying to create the bootable diskette, the following articles in the InstallShield® Website Knowledge Base may help you resolve the problem:
Q104985 - INFO: Troubleshooting Initialization Errors
Q105416 - INFO: Troubleshooting General Installation Errors – End User Version",

but I didn't go further with that because my hesitance due to the link being for Hitachi hard drives and my uncertainty whether or not it would work for Western Digital, got hold of my patience and by then I had enough of struggling with my floppies.

Eventually I surrendered the floppy mission and looked at Ultimate Boot CD at http://www.ultimatebootcd.com/downl... and went to http://www.ultimatebootcd.com/index... where I read the following :

"You need the Ultimate Boot CD if you want to:

* Run floppy-based diagnostic tools from CDROM drives. More and more PCs are shipped without floppy drives these days, and it is such a royal pain when you need to run diagnostic tools on them.

* Free yourself from the slow loading speed of the floppy drive. Even if you do have a floppy drive, it is still much much faster to run your diagnostic tools from the CDROM drive, rather than wait for the tool to load from the floppy drive.

* Consolidate as many diagnostic tools as possible into one bootable CD. Wouldn't you like to avoid digging into the dusty box to look for the right floppy disk, but simply run them all from a single CD? Then the Ultimate Boot CD is for you!",

so I downloaded it at http://pharry.org/data/redir_ubcd50... , because at http://www.ultimatebootcd.com/index... it was wriiten :

"DLG Diagnostic (Western Digital) 4.15 Freeware V5.x has been reported not to work on some older machines, so V4.15 has been included as a backup.".

I burnt the CD and ran the diagnostic - the result of the long test was as follows :

"This drive has one or more errors that are not repairable.
The final status code is 0458.
This drive has not passed the DLGDIAG test. Please contact Western Digital Technical Support, or the online express RMA service at www.westerndigital.com/service".

At http://support.wdc.com/techinfo/gen... ,
Error code 458's definition is "Identified Data Not Found. Ten or more instances of information on data positioning and location could not be found. Drive should be replaced."

Once again, as with the SeaTools DOS CD (ref.#51 above) and with the Data LifeGuard Diagnostics for DOS CD (ref. #59),
the duration of the test was almost instant - the result appeared on the screen at the very instant that I hit "R" to run the test.

ALso, in the same way as my BIOS did (ref.#67, 68 and 69 above), the Ultimate Boot CD also "recognised" my WDC WD64AA hard disk drive as a WDC WD34AA.
It showed as follows :
Model : WDC WD34AA
S/N :
Firmware : 82.10A
C H S : 6588 16 63
Drive (0,1) : 0 Port: 0X01F0
Log File : Not Open
DCM : UNKNOWN
Build Date : UNKNOWN

I will take your and OtheHill's words that
- (#68) either "the BIOS on the motherboard can't configure that older drive, or the drive is defective."
and
- (#69) that "WD64AA may have two disks ("platters") inside the drive, WD32AA may have one." .

In response to
- (#79) "Might be easier to acquire a different hard drive and go from there."
and
- (# 85) "What can be accomplished by running the fitness utility. Either ...",

as a beginner my goal was not to get my computer fixed the quickest and easiest way out, but instead to take the opportunity to make it a well worth learning process to learn and understand what I was doing, without wasting unnecessary money, and you have made this process well worth it.
Practicing patience to go through the process (except for trying the Hitachi suggestions where I lost patience as described above), my determination with your encouragement to get an old floppy drive functional and to get a diagnostic to test the old 6.4 GB HDD paid off, because
- in the process I learned even more than I anticipated - about hard drives and floppy drives and boot orders and floppy disks and cables and connectors and firmware and formatting and bootstrapping and too many other things to list here, and things that weren't as obvious to me as to the experts (after all I am a beginner and we all have to start somewhere), and
- I got files and pictures off my old dusty floppies (we call them stiffies here), which otherwise would not have happened.

Thanks for staying with me throughout my curiosity - I am so happy that I learned so much, and I am so grateful that experts took the time to help a beginner like me to learn so much, and in the process I gained more and more confidence to start looking at building my next computer after this old MS-6714 is fully resurrected.

It looks like it's almost there.

The next thing I want to try is to remove my 6.4 GB HDD from my MS-6714 and transfer my 40 GB HDD from my MS-6309 to my MS-6714.

I need to first review the information you posted me concerning this, and research and learn a few more things on the net.


Report •

#90
January 3, 2011 at 22:46:27
"Disk error on track 57, head 1
Error in reading"
"Disk error on track (so and so)..."
"Write error creating diskette. Please try a different diskette."

Assuming the floppy drive's heads are not "dirty", messages like that indicate either the data on the floppy disk is damaged if you're trying to read it, or the disk has one or more bad sectors on it if you're trying to read from it or write data to it.
Old floppy disks often develop bad sectors on them over time. A good way to check out a floppy disk to see whether it has undetected bad sectors is to do a Full format of the floppy disk in Windows.
In Win 95/98/98SE use Full format - RIGHT click on A: to find Format. Choose Full format instead of Quick format - FULL format is slower, but will find and exclude from use any previously undetected bad sectors on a floppy.
When the format has finished, you will see a summary. There should be NO bytes in bad sectors listed. If there are bad sectors, I recommend you don't use it - it will probably get worse. Format another floppy instead.
....

Once you know the floppy disk has no bad sectors, in this case, the older Western Digital diagnostics download does NOT make the floppy disk bootable - RIGHT click on A: to find Format, then select Copy system files only to make it bootable.
....

Then extract the three files in the older Western Digital diagnostics download to A:\ - the floppy disk.
You need to have WinZip, or some other program that can extract files from a *.zip file, installed on the computer to do that.
If you don't have anything that can extract files from a *.zip archive file, go here and get WinZip 7.0 and install it:
http://www.oldversion.com/program.p...

One you have installed WinZip, you can RIGHT click on a *.zip file and choose to extract files from it - to extract all the files don't select any of them in the list - just select Extract and choose the destination - in this case navigate to A:\ , or you can just type A:\ .

"Several times I tried to make a bootable floppy with Western Digital..." ".....if it was supposed to give me a Diskette Creator icon on my desktop, it didn't"

Apparently this older version does not do that. You have to extract files from the *.zip archive file to the floppy disk, and you need to make the floppy disk bootable yourself.
.....

Then you reboot the computer with the now bootable Western Digital diagnostics floppy disk inserted in the floppy drive, and after the Win 98 system files have loaded from it, type: DLGDIAG at the prompt.

If your Boot Order or similar settings are set so the floppy drive is listed first in the bios Setup , that should work fine.

E.g. the boot order settings should be this for multiple booting situations
Floppy drive
CD drive
Hard drive
...............

"NTLDR is missing"

"The application could not be installed because the AIR file is damaged. Try obtaining a new AIR file from the application author."

Those are both messages you get when you are attempting to boot from a hard drive that has 2000 or above on it.
There is no NTLDR in ME or below.
AIR is an Adobe program that's often installed along with other Adobe software.

"Then I looked at MaxBlast 3 to try to make a bootable floppy,
but then when, at 99%, it gave me the message, "Write error creating diskette. Please try a different diskette.", I realized that my floppy disks were 1.44 MB floppies, and the maxblast3.zip was 1.57 MB.

You are probably getting that message because there's at least one previously undetected bad sector on the floppy disk.
If there was not enough space on the floppy disk you would get a message indicating that there is not enough disk space.

If a file has a .zip file extension, you must use a program that can extract files from the *.zip archive file, such as WinZip 7.0. .

If the download is an archive (compressed) file that has an .exe file extension, it's self extracting - you just double click on it - most newer diagnostics downloads are self executing archives of one sort or another. The *.exe downloads are often larger than 1.44mb but the disk creator program is part of that and it doesn't need to be copied to the floppy disk.

Why were you trying to use MaxBlast ? That isn't a hard drive diagnostics program - it's a hard drive preparation and data copying program - and you may not be able to use it on the Western Digital drive in any case.
......

It sounds like the 6.4gb drive is relatively useless.


Report •

#91
January 5, 2011 at 04:28:56
Tubesandwires,

Once again you have posted me interesting information that tickled my curiosity to try creating a bootable diagnostic floppy again some time - thanks.

I formatted one of the floppies again, using Full format as you suggested in #90 above, and there were NO bytes listed in bad sectors. Yay.

"Why were you trying to use MaxBlast ? That isn't a hard drive diagnostics program - it's a hard drive preparation and data copying program - and you may not be able to use it on the Western Digital drive in any case."

I wondered whether or not it would make me a bootable floppy and give me room on the floppy to extract DLGDIAG.EXE from dlgdiag28.zip and copy it to the floppy, and then boot from it and quit Maxblast and at the A> prompt type DLGDIAG and press ENTER.

QUESTION : If I run a diagnostic test on a hard disk drive that has an OS and data files on it, can the test mess with the OS and data files?


Report •

#92
January 5, 2011 at 07:50:18
"If I run a diagnostic test on a hard disk drive that has an OS and data files on it, can the test mess with the OS and data files?"

The diagnostics programs themselves will not harm the data on the drive, but other features of the software can - e.g. if you choose to zero fill or "low level format" the drive, that will delete the data on the drive.


Report •

#93
January 5, 2011 at 12:07:08
Thanks.

My 40 GB HDD has Windows 2000 installed, but I do not have the Windows 2000 CD.

QUESTION 1 : Am I correct in saying that if I transferred this HDD from my MS-6309 to my MS-6714, and I then wanted to keep and use the same OS, that I would not be able to do a Repair Installation unless I had a Windows 2000 CD and the Product Key?

QUESTION 2 : Am I correct in saying that if I then wanted to install Windows XP Pro on this disk, that it would be called a Fresh Installation?


Report •

#94
January 5, 2011 at 15:25:00
"My 40 GB HDD has Windows 2000 installed, but I do not have the Windows 2000 CD."

Was it installed from a regular Microsoft CD, or was it already installed on a brand name software installation ?

Can you borrow a 2000 CD from someone you know ?
If you can, you can copy it or better still make yourself a "slipstreamed" CD that has the SP4 updates for 2000 integrated into it, and use that to boot the computer and install Windows.

"QUESTION 1 : Am I correct in saying that if I transferred this HDD from my MS-6309 to my MS-6714, and I then wanted to keep and use the same OS, that I would not be able to do a Repair Installation unless I had a Windows 2000 CD and the Product Key?"

As far as I know, the Repair installation method is only available in Setup for the XP CDs that have SP1or later updates integrated into them.

If there is only a small difference between the hardware on the other mboard and the 6714, 2000 MAY load fine and accommodate itself to the changed mboard hardware while loading Windows the first time. In that case you just load the drivers for the 6714 mboard and other devices attached to the mboard that Setup did not install automatically, after Setup has finished - the main chipset drivers for the 6714 must be installed in any case.
If the 40gb drive will not load Windows 2000 all the way when you connect it to the 6714 and try to boot from it, you would probably have to install Windows 2000 from scratch. If there is any personal data on the partition on the 40gb drive Windows is installed on that you don't want to lose, you will need to copy that data to elsewhere before you installed Windows from scratch.
If the case for the other mboard already has an official Microsoft sticker on it that has the Windows 2000 Product Key on it, you can use that with a Windows 2000 CD. If it doesn't have that, you can determine what Product Key Windows is presently using in Windows itself before you disconnect the hard drive from the other mboard, by using a third party program.
E.g. search the web for the freeware Keyfinder , made by Jellybean whatever, download it, and run it in Windows on the other computer. It's already to go as is - just double click on it and it will find the 2000 Product Key, and the Product Key(s) of other Microsoft programs if any are installed that use a key.

"QUESTION 2 : Am I correct in saying that if I then wanted to install Windows XP Pro on this disk, that it would be called a Fresh Installation?"

Yes - but do you have a Product Key for it that is not being used by anyone else ?

It's not legal as far as Microsoft is concerned to use the same Product Key with two Windows installations, or to use a key provided by a key generator program.


Report •

#95
January 6, 2011 at 13:35:40
Thanks for your reply.

In response to #94 above :

"Was it installed from a regular Microsoft CD, or was it already installed on a brand name software installation ?"

I don't know - when the MS-6309 was given to me second hand in payment of a job that I did, it had Windows 2000 installed.

"Can you borrow a 2000 CD from someone you know ?"

I probably could if I asked around, but I no longer see a reason to keep 2000, because certain programs that I want to use with my MS-6714, would not run properly on 2000.

"If you can, you can copy it or better still make yourself a "slipstreamed" CD that has the SP4 updates for 2000 integrated into it, and use that to boot the computer and install Windows."

QUESTION 1 : If owner X of a Windows OS CD lost the CD, but still knows the Product Key number, is it legal, as far as Microsoft is concerned, if owner X copies a Windows OS CD from owner Y but he uses his own (owner X's) Product Key (if it is used with one installation only) - is Microsoft only concerned about the same Product Key being used with two Windows installations?

"As far as I know, the Repair installation method is only available in Setup for the XP CDs that have SP1or later updates integrated into them."

QUESTION 2 : If the Repair installation method is not available in Setup for the 2000 CD's, would it mean that if repair needed to be done to Windows 2000, that one would have to install it from scratch each time?

"If the case for the other mboard already has an official Microsoft sticker on it that has the Windows 2000 Product Key on it, you can use that with a Windows 2000 CD. If it doesn't have that, you can determine what Product Key Windows is presently using in Windows itself before you disconnect the hard drive from the other mboard, by using a third party program."

QUESTION 3 : This doesn't make sense to me, because if the Repair installation method is not available in Setup for the Windows 2000 CD's, why would I want the Product Key, unless I borrowed a 2000 CD from someone to install it from scratch and therefore needed to determine the Product Key (using a third party program such as Magic Jelly Bean), but then, because I am not the owner of the Product Key, it would be illegal to use it if the owner of it had it installed in another computer?

QUESTION 4 : Can one copy an OS that is installed on a hard disk from that hard disk to a CD?

QUESTION 5 : Can certain Windows OS's be downloaded for free from the internet?

"you can determine what Product Key Windows is presently using in Windows itself before you disconnect the hard drive from the other mboard, by using a third party program.
E.g. search the web for the freeware Keyfinder"

I tried this just for fun to see what it does and Magical Jelly Bean gave me the Product key for Windows 2000 installed on my MS-6309 - thanks.

QUESTION 6 : It also gave me a Product Key for Microsoft Office Professional Edition 2003 and a Product Key for Microsoft Office Basic Edition 2003, but how could that be if I don't have them installed on the disk?

"Yes - but do you have a Product Key for it that is not being used by anyone else ?"

I don't know. I don't know if anyone else is using the Product Key.

"It's not legal as far as Microsoft is concerned to use the same Product Key with two Windows installations, or to use a key provided by a key generator program."

I am aware of this. In South Africa a Microsoft OS such as Windows XP is very expensive for the average consumer and it is common practice here for most people to copy Windows CD's and use the same Product Key with more than one Window installation, because most people here simply cannot afford to purchase a brand new Windows CD.

Personally I do not want to be part of illegal activities. This is why I was very happy when I discovered the existence of Linux a few weeks ago and want to get familiar with it as soon as possible.

QUESTION 7 : What happens to a hard disk that has an OS and other files on it when another or the same OS is installed to it from scratch?

"If the case for the other mboard already has an official Microsoft sticker on it ... "

The case for my MS-6714 mainboard has an official Microsoft sticker on it that has a Windows XP Home Product Key on it.

I have a Windows XP Professional CD with a Product Key on it.


Report •

#96
January 7, 2011 at 14:41:01
""Was it installed from a regular Microsoft CD, or was it already installed on a brand name software installation ?""

"I don't know - when the MS-6309 was given to me second hand in payment of a job that I did, it had Windows 2000 installed."

Apparently MS-6309 is a retail series, so unless the case has an obvious brand name, Windows was probably installed from a regular CD.
Have you asked whoever you got it from whether they still have the 2000 CD ??

There are 6 MS-6309 mboard version series
http://www.msi.com/service/search/#...

694T Pro (manual is for MS-6309 V 5.0)
694 Master (manual is for MS-6309 V 3.0)
MS-6309 (manual is for V 1.0)
MS-6309 Lite (manual is for Lite V 1.1)
MS-6309 SB (manual is for SB V 2.0b)
MS-6309 V2.x (manual is for V 2.2, 2.x)

""Can you borrow a 2000 CD from someone you know ?""

"I probably could if I asked around, but I no longer see a reason to keep 2000, because certain programs that I want to use with my MS-6714, would not run properly on 2000."

There are a few recent versions of some programs that will only run in XP and above, but almost everything else will work fine in both 2000 and XP. However, an exception is anti-malware software often requires XP or above.

"QUESTION 1 : If owner X of a Windows OS CD lost the CD, but still knows the Product Key number, is it legal, as far as Microsoft is concerned, if owner X copies a Windows OS CD from owner Y but he uses his own (owner X's) Product Key (if it is used with one installation only) - is Microsoft only concerned about the same Product Key being used with two Windows installations?"

"...is Microsoft only concerned about the same Product Key being used with two Windows installations?"

Primarily, yes, as long as you make only one copy.

The Windows licence allows you to make one copy of your Windows disk for backup purposes, in case the original disk is damaged,
- and - installations of 2000 and XP that came on brand name computers sometimes did not come with a Windows re-installation CD, and in that case you're allowed to make one copy of someone else's CD of the same version, in the case of XP, Home or Pro, whichever is installed on the hard drive, to load Windows with, as long as you have and use the original Product Key, which is supposed to be on the official Microsoft label on the brand name case.
So - if you own the computer, whether it was originally yours or not, as long as no one else is using the same Product Key, you can use a copy of someone else's CD.
Of course, it may be hard to determine whether someone else is using the same Product Key, but you can certainly not do that on your own computers.
If you're going to use a copy of someone else's CD, then it's a good idea for you to make a "slipstreamed" CD that has the SP4 updates integrated into it for 2000, or that has the SP3 updates integrated into it for XP.

"QUESTION 2 : If the Repair installation method is not available in Setup for the 2000 CD's, would it mean that if repair needed to be done to Windows 2000, that one would have to install it from scratch each time?"

Sometimes you can fix problems by using the first Repair choice in Setup (press R) to load the Recovery Console and running certain commands there, or doing certain procedures, but if that doesn't help you must install Windows from scratch.

""If the case for the other mboard already has an official Microsoft sticker on it that has the Windows 2000 Product Key on it, you can use that with a Windows 2000 CD. If it doesn't have that, you can determine what Product Key Windows is presently using in Windows itself before you disconnect the hard drive from the other mboard, by using a third party program.""

"QUESTION 3 : This doesn't make sense to me, because if the Repair installation method is not available in Setup for the Windows 2000 CD's, why would I want the Product Key, unless I borrowed a 2000 CD from someone to install it from scratch and therefore needed to determine the Product Key (using a third party program such as Magic Jelly Bean), but then, because I am not the owner of the Product Key, it would be illegal to use it if the owner of it had it installed in another computer?"

You always need the Product Key when you install 2000 and up, whether you can do the Repair installation method or not - you're running Setup when you do the Repair installation method too - the difference is your data already on the Windows partition is not deleted as it would be if you installed Windows from scratch.

If you bought or were given a computer that already has Windows on it, or even if you picked up a discarded computer, my way of thinking is, as long as whoever owned it before had a legal (as far as Microsoft is concerned) installation of Windows, then the ownership of the Windows license becomes yours.
Of course, it may be hard to determine whether someone else is using the same Product Key, but the way I see it is, if you're not aware that someone else is using the same key, there's nothing wrong with you using it.

"QUESTION 4 : Can one copy an OS that is installed on a hard disk from that hard disk to a CD?"

Just the Windows installation itself ? NO - at least, no way that I know of.

You can copy the entire contents of the partition Windows is installed on, but you can't legally, as far as Microsoft is concerned, use the same Product Key for more than one Windows installation. If you have more than one legitimate Product Key, you can use Keyfinder (at least the older version I have) or some other third party programs, to change the Product Key.

If you copy the entire contents of the partition Windows is installed on, that can only be used with the same mboard or an identical one, or for a mboard that is very similar.
If the mboard is more than a little different from the one that was present when Windows was installed, Windows will probably not boot all the way, and in that case then you need at least the contents of the \i386 folder (or \WinNT folder for 2000) that's on a Windows CD - that's not copied to the hard drive for a generic Windows installation, but brand name Windows installations often do have that folder on the hard drive somewhere, visible or invisible to the user, so that a Windows CD does not need to be inserted to load certain things like it would have to be for a generic Windows installation.

"QUESTION 5 : Can certain Windows OS's be downloaded for free from the internet?"

For Microsoft's Win 95 and up, you can't, legally, as far as Microsoft is concerned.
I've heard that you can download Windows 3.1, legally, as far as Microsoft is concerned, from Microsoft, but you would also need a Dos version with that, and that's probably too old to be useful anymore, unless you don't need full internet access.

There are freeware versions of Dos, e.g. Dos 7.x which is very similar to the MSDos that is in Windows 95 to ME.
You can download some versions of Linux for free, but it takes quite a while to download it all on a slower internet connection.

"I tried this just for fun to see what it does and Magical Jelly Bean gave me the Product key for Windows 2000 installed on my MS-6309 - thanks.

QUESTION 6 : It also gave me a Product Key for Microsoft Office Professional Edition 2003 and a Product Key for Microsoft Office Basic Edition 2003, but how could that be if I don't have them installed on the disk?"

If Keyfinder also finds the Product Keys for other Microsoft products, then those were installed on the computer at one time or another. If they're not there now, then it's likely they were not un-installed properly and the keys are still in the Registry where Keyfinder looks for the Microsoft keys.

"QUESTION 7 : What happens to a hard disk that has an OS and other files on it when another or the same OS is installed to it from scratch?"

Windows Setup will not allow you to install an operating system from scratch on the same hard drive partition a Windows operating system is already installed on. Similar probably applies to non-Windows operating systems. You may be able to install a Windows operating system on the same hard drive partition a non-Windows was installed on, or visa versa, but it's extremely likely both operating systems would not work properly in that case.
When you use a third party "partition manipulation " program to merge the data contents of two adjacent partitions on a hard drive, you are NEVER supposed to do that if both partitions have an operating system on them - it may be possible to do that, but it's extremely likely both operating systems would not work properly in that case.

If you install an operating system on a different partition on a hard drive, or on a different partition on a different hard drive if the computer has more than one hard drive, you may or may not get a multiple boot situation while booting and be able to select which one to load, depending on the operating systems involved.
In any case, you can only load one operating system installation at a time on the same computer.

"The case for my MS-6714 mainboard has an official Microsoft sticker on it that has a Windows XP Home Product Key on it."

You can use that Product Key along with an XP Home CD if you already have one, or with a copy of one. However, the Product Key on a brand name computer is always an OEM license key - it may not be accepted by Setup if you ARE NOT using an XP re-installation CD that came with the computer, or the same in a Recovery disk set for the model, or a regular Microsoft OEM CD - it has "For distribution with a new PC only." printed on it.

You can find out whether the CD you're using is a Retail or OEM or Upgrade CD if it isn't obvious otherwise, and which SP updates it has, by searching the web with the volume label for the CD - the title of the CD you see in Windows - on the web.
(If it's a "slipstreamed" CD, you are supposed to enter the volume label of the original CD when you burn it - if that wasn't done, then it's much harder to determine which it is.)

"I have a Windows XP Professional CD with a Product Key on it."

Legitimate original Windows CDs never have the Product Key printed on it, unless a user did that themself, and do not have a file on the CD with that in it, anywhere on the CD. The CD can be used with any suitable Product Key.
A copy of a disk may have had that info added to it in a file, if someone chose to do that.
If there is a list of Product Keys anywhere on the CD, and/ or a key generator program to generate a random one, it's definitely an illegal CD.

The rules of this web site forbid us from telling you about anything that's illegal, as far as the software maker is concerned.


Report •

#97
January 8, 2011 at 18:50:54
Thank you.

In response to #96 above :

"Apparently MS-6309 is a retail series, so unless the case has an obvious brand name, Windows was probably installed from a regular CD.
Have you asked whoever you got it from whether they still have the 2000 CD ??"

No, because
- as I said in #95, I no longer see a reason to keep 2000, because certain programs that I want to use with my MS-6714 would not run properly on 2000 (I didn't specify before - see the links below) and
- if the person from whom I got the MS-6903 installed that Windows 2000 from a CD with a Product Key number that they, or someone else, uses, then it wouldn't be legal if I used it.

"There are 6 MS-6309 mboard version series ..."

Thanks for this info and for the link.

"There are a few recent versions of some programs that will only run in XP and above, but almost everything else will work fine in both 2000 and XP. However, an exception is anti-malware software often requires XP or above."

I want to run Adobe CS4 http://www.ehow.com/list_6469145_ad... and
Cakewalk SONAR LE http://www.cakewalk.com/products/so..., but according to their system requirements they will not work fine with 2000.

""...is Microsoft only concerned about the same Product Key being used with two Windows installations?""

"Primarily, yes, as long as you make only one copy."

QUESTION 1 : So then it is primarily the Product Key you pay for, as long as you make only one copy?

"installations of 2000 and XP that came on brand name computers sometimes did not come with a Windows re-installation CD ... as long as you have and use the original Product Key, which is supposed to be on the official Microsoft label on the brand name case."

There is an official Microsoft label on the case of my MS-6714 that was given to me without a hard disk drive - on the label is written 'Emerald Computers', 'Microsoft Windows XP Home Edition' and a Product Key, and on the case is written 'Emerald', so it must be a brand name computer, as you described above.

"So - if you own the computer, whether it was originally yours or not, as long as no one else is using the same Product Key, you can use a copy of someone else's CD."

So yes, I now own the computer, but taken into consideration that it was given to me with no hard disk drive in it, and assuming that with the hard disk drive that used to be in there it was an installation of XP Home Edition that did not come with a Windows re-installation CD, the following is possible :
- either the hard disk that was removed from my MS-6714 was connected to another computer, the Product Key on the label, that's stuck on the case of my MS-6714, being used,
or
- it was never used by any one again since it was removed from my MS-6714.

QUESTION 2 : If I am the owner now of the whole MS-6714 including the brand case and the official Microsoft label that's stuck on it, but not of the hard disk that was not in there when I was given the computer, then who is the true legal owner of the Product Key - me or the previous owner or whoever uses the Product key at present wherever they are if they are? Does the following that you posted me answer the above question?
"If you bought or were given a computer that already has Windows on it, or even if you picked up a discarded computer, my way of thinking is, as long as whoever owned it before had a legal (as far as Microsoft is concerned) installation of Windows, then the ownership of the Windows license becomes yours."
What would make me the legal owner, the Windows OS installation on the hard disk that was removed which I never had and still don't have, or the official label?

"Of course, it may be hard to determine whether someone else is using the same Product Key, but the way I see it is, if you're not aware that someone else is using the same key, there's nothing wrong with you using it."

QUESTION 3 : Would Microsoft Windows be able to determine for me if the Product Key on my label is being used by someone else or not, if I asked them?

"I've heard that you can download Windows 3.1, legally, as far as Microsoft is concerned, from Microsoft"

Haha! I remember Windows3.1 floppies! What a luxury it was then to upgrade from Lotus with DOS, and screens with black background and amber or green or white visual display, and some silly computer game in black and amber throwing bananas, to Windows!
Hey but those guys who wrote those programs were the pioneers so thumbs up to them!

"You can download some versions of Linux for free, but it takes quite a while to download it all on a slower internet connection."

I reckon that with all the patience that I have learned to practice in the time that I used my very slow MS-6903 with its 320 MB RAM, I am well trained to find things to keep myself busy with while I wait for a version of Linux to download.
I am very interested in trying a Linux version once I have decided which one to use for Adobe CS4.

"If there is a list of Product Keys anywhere on the CD, and/ or a key generator program to generate a random one, it's definitely an illegal CD."

Yes, I have seen such a list that someone had for a CD (not a Windows OS CD - some other program).

"The rules of this web site forbid us from telling you about anything that's illegal, as far as the software maker is concerned."

If I spent so many hours writing a software program to sell, I also wouldn't be happy if my work was stolen and distributed for free or sold.

If we can't afford it, we shouldn't have it, and do something constructive until we can afford it, and if managed wisely, one wheat kernel can feed a nation.

QUESTION 4 : If I wanted to install a Windows OS and a Linux OS on one hard disk, what would be the better choice to make for my 40GB HDD, partitioning it, or making it a virtual machine with VirtualBox, or both?

Thanks so much for all the other answers and information!


Report •

#98
January 8, 2011 at 20:45:29
WOW!!! So many answers for one question! :)

Report •

#99
January 9, 2011 at 02:11:29
Hi Dude375!

Quote:
"WOW!!! So many answers for one question! :)"

Yes isn't it great! :-)

The guys who helped me in this forum are amazing and they surely know what they are talking about when it comes to computers! They could probably help me to send my cattle dog to the moon and back (to herd the cow that jumps over the moon) with my old computer, if I asked them nicely.

So with these guys on my side, living in the middle of nowhere on this planet, far, far away from civilization, is not a problem when it comes to fixing, operating and maintaining my computer. Isn't that great!

Things will never be the same again thanks to these guys. With their dedicated patience with little me, answering my one question in so much detail, I have learned so much from them and gained so much confidence in fixing, maintaining and operating my computer since I started this thread more than six weeks ago. They have opened an exciting new world to me!

Yay!

Go well!


Report •

#100
January 9, 2011 at 12:00:33
Good luck with your newly built computer :)

Report •

#101
January 9, 2011 at 20:40:24
"I want to run Adobe CS4 http://www.ehow.com/list_6469145_ad...
and
Cakewalk SONAR LE http://www.cakewalk.com/products/so...
, but according to their system requirements they will not work fine with 2000."

Cakewalk Sonar is no problem for the 6714, but
Adobe Creative Suite 4 has some other hefty system requirements.

Adobe Creative Suite 4 system requirements
http://kb2.adobe.com/cps/406/kb4062...

" * 2GHz or faster processor"

I don't think you're mentioned the speed of your CPU yet.
That's probably shown in the bios Setup, and possibly on the first screen when you boot the computer.

" * 1GB of RAM or more recommended "

You have the minimum, but Adobe programs often run MUCH better with more ram.

" * 7.7GB (Design Standard) or 9.3GB (Design Premium) of available hard-disk space for installation. Additional free space is required during installation (cannot install on flash-based storage devices.)"

That's a hefty chunk of drive space on a 40gb drive for one suite of programs, especially if you want to install both Linux and XP.

" * Some GPU-accelerated features require graphics support for Shader Model 3.0 and OpenGL 2.0 "
* Some features in Adobe Bridge rely on a DirectX9-capable graphics card with at least 64MB of VRAM "

You probably won't be able to use those unless features you get and install a more recent graphics card. XP already has the DirectX 9 software installed, but your video is probably DirectX 8 compatible - the video will still work but DirectX 9 only features will be auto replaced with lesser features, or may not work at all.

" * DVD-ROM drive "

Do you have a drive on the 6714 that can read DVDs ?
.........

Even if you DO have a 2ghz or faster CPU, you will probably find that at least some features of Creative Suite 4 will be VERY SLOW on the 6714.
.....

"QUESTION 1 : So then it is primarily the Product Key you pay for, as long as you make only one copy?"

You owning the computer and having the official Microsoft label with the Product Key on it proves you have a legitimate license to use the operating system, whether you paid for that yourself or not.
I don't know whether you can still do it, but you used to be able to go online on the Microsoft web site and buy additional Product Keys for XP, however, that costed similar to buying an OEM XP CD.
A side note -
If you want to upgrade Vista or XP, if you already have a Vista or Windows 7 DVD, it has all the versions on it - you can go online on the Microsoft web site and buy a Product Key for ahigher version and use the same DVD (although I'm not sure if they all have both the 32 bit and 64 bit versions on the DVDs).

"There is an official Microsoft label on the case of my MS-6714 that was given to me without a hard disk drive - on the label is written 'Emerald Computers', 'Microsoft Windows XP Home Edition' and a Product Key, and on the case is written 'Emerald', so it must be a brand name computer, as you described above."

"- either the hard disk that was removed from my MS-6714 was connected to another computer, the Product Key on the label, that's stuck on the case of my MS-6714, being used,
or
- it was never used by any one again since it was removed from my MS-6714.

QUESTION 2 : If I am the owner now of the whole MS-6714 including the brand case and the official Microsoft label that's stuck on it, but not of the hard disk that was not in there when I was given the computer, then who is the true legal owner of the Product Key - me or the previous owner or whoever uses the Product key at present wherever they are if they are?"

You have the official label - the original owner doesn't. If he or she is still using the Product Key, it's he or she that does not have the license to use that copy of Windows because he or she no longer has the official label. If there was no hard drive in it, it's the same situation as when a hard drive fails - you may not have a working Windows installation, but you have the license to install the operating system that's on the label again.

NOTE that you may need to use a Microsoft OEM Windows XP Home CD - that has "For Distribution with a new PC only." printed on it, in order to be able to use the Product Key on the 6714's label, otherwise Setup may not accept the key as valid.
An XP Home CD that came with someone else's brand name system will probably refuse to install Windows on the 6714 !

" QUESTION 3 : Would Microsoft Windows be able to determine for me if the Product Key on my label is being used by someone else or not, if I asked them? "

No.
As long as you have the official label, you are the one who has the right to use the copy of Windows and the Product Key on the label, not anyone else.

However, they can prevent you from using Windows after a short amount of time if they DO know the Product Key is not legitimate.
Microsoft has lists of Product Keys they know have been used illegitimately - either the Product Key has been reported to them, or it's one known to them because it's commonly suggested as one to use on, or in the info along with, illegal Windows CDs or DVDs. The Product Key will be accepted by Setup when you install the operating system, BUT if it's one of those keys, when you want to install something that requires a Windows Genuine Advantage verification, including certain Windows Updates which you must install to update the operating system, such as SP3 Updates for XP, you will be told the key is not valid and you then can use Windows for no more than 30 days, or less.

"Haha! I remember Windows3.1 floppies! What a luxury it was then to upgrade from Lotus with DOS, and screens with black background and amber or green or white visual display, and some silly computer game in black and amber throwing bananas, to Windows!
Hey but those guys who wrote those programs were the pioneers so thumbs up to them!"

Up until the late 90's or so, the best games were Dos games, by far. I have lots of them.

"QUESTION 4 : If I wanted to install a Windows OS and a Linux OS on one hard disk, what would be the better choice to make for my 40GB HDD, partitioning it, or making it a virtual machine with VirtualBox, or both?"

Installing the two operating systems each on their own partition, and having a dual boot system configuration, is always more reliable than using a Virtual machine program of one sort or another to do that.
I have not installed Linux and Windows on the same system, but apparently others who post here have and it sounds like it's fairly easy to do.
It would probably be a good idea to have a third partition for data you would want to use with either operating system.

There are many free (open source) Linux programs on the web that do the same or similar things as programs for Windows do, but they can be huge and time consuming to download.



Report •

#102
January 12, 2011 at 14:34:20
In response to #101 above.

Thank you for all the detailed help concerning Adobe CS4 system requirements and the rest !

"Adobe Creative Suite 4 system requirements"
" * 2GHz or faster processor"
"I don't think you're mentioned the speed of your CPU yet."

I didn't. The speed of my MS-6714's CPU is 2.4Ghz.

"That's probably shown in the bios Setup, and possibly on the first screen when you boot the computer."

Thanks. I found it on the first screen when I booted my computer.
I searched in my Award BIOS v6.00PG but did not find the speed of my CPU shown anywhere there. I wondered why I couldn't find it in my BIOS.

I searched the net and had a look at different Award BIOS v6.00PG's, and saw that the menu's were not the same in all of them, and wondered whether or not that was the reason why I could not find the speed of my CPU in my BIOS, eg. my BIOS does not have SoftMenu III Setup like in other Award BIOS v6.00PG menu's, but my BIOS has a menu named Frequency/Voltage Control, which the other Award BIOS's don't have.

" * 1GB of RAM or more recommended "
"You have the minimum, but Adobe programs often run MUCH better with more ram."

I was given a compatible 512MG RAM module by someone recently, so I now have 1.5GB of RAM. If I find a compatible 1GB RAM module, I will use that instead and have 2GB.

" * 7.7GB (Design Standard) or 9.3GB (Design Premium) of available hard-disk space for installation. Additional free space is required during installation (cannot install on flash-based storage devices.)"
That's a hefty chunk of drive space on a 40gb drive for one suite of programs, especially if you want to install both Linux and XP.

I intend to buy a brand new hard disk drive in the near future that would be ideal for my circumstances. I don't want to overdo things, and since I am still an amateur I feel I first need to learn to understand the world of storage a bit better. I am new to Adobe Creative Suite so I cannot yet try to estimate more or less how much storage space my video and audio work is going to require, but I can imagine that it is going to be a lot.

I feel that as I start playing with Linux and Adobe, while going as per normal with Windows, I will start figuring out which Linux distro will best suit my circumstances, and just how much storage my Adobe CS4 and Cakewalk work files will take on avarage.

If I can get away with fitting Windows XP, Linux, Adobe CS4 and Cakewalk SONAR LE on my 40GB hard disk drive as a temporary stepping stone, then I am satisfied at this stage.

QUESTION 1 : As a temporary method, until I get another hard disk drive, can I use my USB disk, instead of my 40GB HDD for storing my work files?

." * Some GPU-accelerated features require graphics support for Shader Model 3.0 and OpenGL 2.0 "
* Some features in Adobe Bridge rely on a DirectX9-capable graphics card with at least 64MB of VRAM "

"You probably won't be able to use those unless features you get and install a more recent graphics card. XP already has the DirectX 9 software installed, but your video is probably DirectX 8 compatible - the video will still work but DirectX 9 only features will be auto replaced with lesser features, or may not work at all."

Oops, I don't remember if I have thought of that. Thank you for this information.
I haven't yet learned much about graphic accelerator cards. I need to study this topic some more.

My MS-6309 has a graphics card, but I don't know yet whether it will be good enough for Adobe CS4 or not.
I'm not even sure how to identify it.

I was shown the following information with a DOS session :

95520......
??......h.......
2004/07/08 04:56
.....6..........
DvN7.b.'........
..113-AA24100-10
O-MI
...<C>
1988-
2003, ati T
echnologies Inc.
BK-ATI VER008.0
17D.031.000. paa
a24100.100 v611
.V280AGP DGD1UN.
...Radeon 9250 P
N 113-MS895201-M
S CRT

In System Information, Display showed the following :

Name : MSI RADEON 9250
Adapter Type : RADEON 9200 PRO AGP (0x5960), ...
Resolution : 1024 x 768 x 60 hertz
Bits/Pixel : 32

Name : MSI RADEON 9250 Secondary
Adapter Type : RADEON 9200 PRO AGP (0x5960), ...
Resolution : Not Available
Bits/Pixel : Not Available

" * DVD-ROM drive "

"Do you have a drive on the 6714 that can read DVDs ?"

No, the drive on the 6714 is a CD drive, but my MS-6309 has a DVD-ROM drive.

"Even if you DO have a 2ghz or faster CPU, you will probably find that at least some features of Creative Suite 4 will be VERY SLOW on the 6714."

Oh dear, I will keep this in mind when I start planning my first build. Thank you.

"You owning the computer and having the official Microsoft label with the Product Key on it proves you have a legitimate license to use the operating system, whether you paid for that yourself or not."

Yay! Then I have a legitimate license to use the Windows Home Edition OS. Thank you for this information!

I did not find an official Microsoft label on my MS-6309, so therefore I do not have a legitimate licence to use the Windows 2000 OS that's on my hard disk drive.

"NOTE that you may need to use a Microsoft OEM Windows XP Home CD - that has "For Distribution with a new PC only." printed on it, in order to be able to use the Product Key on the 6714's label, otherwise Setup may not accept the key as valid.
An XP Home CD that came with someone else's brand name system will probably refuse to install Windows on the 6714 !"

Oh dear ! OK. Thanks. I only have license for the Home Edition though. The CD that I have for XP Professional does NOT have an official Microsoft label with it, only a Product Key number written on it, so, according to what you described in a previous post, I then assume that I should rather not use it.

QUESTION 2 : Should I find that I may need to use a Microsoft OEM Windows XP Home CD - that has "For Distribution with a new PC only" printed on it,
a) where could I get such a CD?
and
b) should I not be able to get such a CD, would my 6714 refuse to install any other Windows OS, eg. XP Professional or Vista, if I had license for such?

"Up until the late 90's or so, the best games were Dos games, by far. I have lots of them."

I remember some good ones and wish I could get my hands on some of them.

"Installing the two operating systems each on their own partition, and having a dual boot system configuration, is always more reliable than using a Virtual machine program of one sort or another to do that."
"It would probably be a good idea to have a third partition for data you would want to use with either operating system."
Thank you.

QUESTION 3 : So, being aware of the fact that 7.7GB (Design Standard) or 9.3GB (Design Premium) of Adobe CS4, plus both Linux and XP, together take a hefty chunk of drive space on a 40GB drive, could I still do this as a temporary condition, for learning Adobe CS4 and Linux, until I have decided which hard disk drive will best suit my circumstances for the next computer that I want to build for Adobe CS and Windows and/or Linux, once my 6714 is fully functional ?

Thank you for your time and for all the other information.


Report •

#103
January 13, 2011 at 21:24:44
"I searched the net and had a look at different Award BIOS v6.00PG's"

The Award BIOS v6.00PG version, like all bios versions, is an "overall" bios version. It's a software framework that's modified to suit the mboard model and it's hardware (chips) to make it a specific bios version, by the mboard maker or brand name system maker, or by someone on their behalf. It's up to whoever made the specific bios version what they want the user to see in the bios Setup screens. Brand name system bios versions tend to show you a lot less than bios versions made for retail mboard models.
Bios updates for a mboard model are merely slightly modified specific bios versions for the model.

"QUESTION 1 : As a temporary method, until I get another hard disk drive, can I use my USB disk, instead of my 40GB HDD for storing my work files?"

Sure, but there are requirements.

See Response 1:
http://www.computing.net/answers/ha...

"My MS-6903 has a graphics card, but I don't know yet whether it will be good enough for Adobe CS4 or not.
I'm not even sure how to identify it."

You have a "MSI RADEON 9250" card.
It has two video ports, and two monitors can be connected to it.
It's 2X / 4X / 8X AGP compatible.

I have a PowerColor 9250 REX, it has the same Radeon 9250 video chipset, and also has the ability for video input.

The AMD web site has the drivers (AMD merged with ATI a few years back) and associated software for it, however they are not updating those anymore. You MAY have problems when you try to un-install those drivers, if you ever need to - they may not un-install. I have found a good program that can remove the ATI software in that case, if you ever have the need to use it.

""Do you have a drive on the 6714 that can read DVDs ?""

" No, the drive on the 6714 is a CD drive, but my MS-6903 has a DVD-ROM drive."

New combo DVD burner drives (burn and read both CDs and DVDs) are relatively cheap to buy, especially if you get a "bulk" drive - merely a drive in an anti-static bag, usually with a free version of burning software included, instead of it being in a fancy cardboard box. I recommend LG drives - they're good quality, relatively well balanced and quieter, and are good at everything, except for reading badly scratched disks.

"QUESTION 2 : Should I find that I may need to use a Microsoft OEM Windows XP Home CD - that has "For Distribution with a new PC only" printed on it,
a) where could I get such a CD?"

Regular Microsoft OEM XP CDs were used by many people to install XP on a generic system, rather than on a brand name system, and by many smaller custom computer system builders, who supplied them to the customer. If you ask around, someone you know may have one.
I always use regular Microsoft OEM XP CDs, and I have an OEM Vista DVD and an OEM Windows 7 DVD.

"and
b) should I not be able to get such a CD, would my 6714 refuse to install any other Windows OS, eg. XP Professional or Vista, if I had license for such?"

If you have the official Microsoft label for it with it's Product Key, you can install whatever version of Windows you want to - XP retail, OEM, Home or Pro or the two CD XP MCE set, retail or OEM Vista or Windows 7.
However XP may work better than Vista or Windows 7 on the 6714 because you have a 2gb memory (ram) limit for the mboard - the latter require more ram to do the same things.

It's only Windows re-installation CDs that came with a brand name system that will probably refuse to install on other systems, if the other system is different, when they find the computer does not have the proper brand name of bios, and/or the mboard model is not one of the acceptable ones that can be used with the CD for the brand name model series.

Retail versions of the CDs or DVDs do NOT have "For Distribution with a new PC only. " printed on them, and they cost more when new than OEM versions.

" QUESTION 3 : So, being aware of the fact that 7.7GB (Design Standard) or 9.3GB (Design Premium) of Adobe CS4, plus both Linux and XP, together take a hefty chunk of drive space on a 40GB drive, could I still do this as a temporary condition, for learning Adobe CS4 and Linux, until I have decided which hard disk drive will best suit my circumstances for the next computer that I want to build for Adobe CS and Windows and/or Linux, once my 6714 is fully functional ?"

What size is the external hard drive ?
If I were you, I would not install Linux until I had more internal hard drive space available.
You can have a dual boot situation even when the two operating systems have been installed on different hard drives.


Report •

#104
January 14, 2011 at 16:15:52
In response to #103 above.

Thanks for the info about Award BIOS v6 versions.

"You have a "MSI RADEON 9250" card.
It has two video ports, and two monitors can be connected to it."

Thanks.

I learned that it has a VGA port and an S-Video port.
My CRT monitor is presently connected to the VGA port.

QUESTION 1 : If I wanted to connect two monitors to it, would I connect one to the VGA port and the other one to the S-Video port?

QUESTION 2 : Could I connect an LCD monitor to this card?

Quoted from your post #101 :
" * Some GPU-accelerated features require graphics support for Shader Model 3.0 and OpenGL 2.0 "
* Some features in Adobe Bridge rely on a DirectX9-capable graphics card with at least 64MB of VRAM "

I'm not sure yet what all of this means - I need to study this topic some more.

"You probably won't be able to use those features unless you get and install a more recent graphics card. XP already has the DirectX 9 software installed, but your video is probably DirectX 8 compatible - the video will still work but DirectX 9 only features will be auto replaced with lesser features, or may not work at all."

QUESTION 3 : Does my MSI RADEON 9250 fit the system requirements of Adobe CS4?

http://www2.dealtime.com/MSI-RX9250...

"I have a PowerColor 9250 REX, it has the same Radeon 9250 video chipset, and also has the ability for video input."

QUESTION 4 : What is the difference between "video input" and "video output"?

"I have found a good program that can remove the ATI software in that case, if you ever have the need to use it."

Thanks.

Thanks for the info concerning drivers.

"What size is the external hard drive ?"

Oops, I wrote "USB disk", but I meant "USB flash drive" - I do not have an external hard drive. My question in #102 above was "As a temporary method, until I get another hard disk drive, can I use my USB disk, instead of my 40GB HDD for storing my work files?", but I meant a USB stick, not a USB hard disk drive, and after reading posts from the links you posted me in #103, I realized that it would be foolish of me to store my files in a flash drive only, without at least one back up of them, so I agree with the following.

"If I were you, I would not install Linux until I had more internal hard drive space available.
You can have a dual boot situation even when the two operating systems have been installed on different hard drives."

I will try to get a copy of Windows XP Home Edition and if I do, try to install Windows XP Home and Adobe CS4 on the 40GB HDD.

Quoted from #33 above :
"You also have the option of getting a SATA drive, if you also get a PCI SATA drive controller card (as cheap as $30 or under where I am) , or another type of adapter (similar price or less) that can adapt a SATA drive for use on a mboard that has no built in SATA controllers or SATA data headers - you may also need a wiring adapter for the SATA power socket on the SATA hard drive if your power supply doesn't have that."

QUESTION 5 : Thinking of the future, preferring to buy a hard disk drive that I can eventually use in the new "up to date" computer that I want to try to build, after my MS-6714 is fully functional, can I use the latest hard disk drive standard in my MS-6714 - what is the latest, SATA 3, or is there another later version?

Quoted from #34 above :
'The Intel 845 series chipset does NOT support 48 bit LBA."

QUESTION 6 : What must I look for in my manual to determine what "bit" the MS-6714 chipset supports?

QUESTION 7 : What size hard disk drive would be a good size to start with (for my future computer, not for my 6714) if I wanted to install Windows XP, Linux and Adobe CS4, swap space, video files, audio files and document files, etc. without overdoing it?

QUESTION 8 : Is it a better idea to have two internal hard disk drives in a computer instead of one so that one of them be used for backup of files?

QUESTION 9 : Which manufacturer proofed to produce the most reliable hard drives?

Once again, thank you for helping me up to this point. I never imagined that my thread would have so many posts and run for so many weeks! I really appreciate it that you stuck with this thread for so long and helped me so much. THANK YOU.

I feel I am just about ready to transfer the 40 GB drive, the graphics card and the DVD-ROM drive from my 6309 to my 6714, if I can get a copy of Windows XP Home Edition of which I have a legitimate Product Key, and to buy a new hard disk drive.


Report •

#105
January 14, 2011 at 21:44:43
"I learned that it has a VGA port and an S-Video port."

"QUESTION 1 : If I wanted to connect two monitors to it, would I connect one to the VGA port and the other one to the S-Video port?"

Oops. The Radeon 9250 video chipset supports up to two video outputs at a time - either two monitors, or one monitor and TV-Out video (S-Video or Composite video).

If your card has only one video port, then it has only VGA monitor, and TV-Out video (S-Video or Composite video) outputs.
The S-Video or Composite video outputs can only be used to connect to a TV or a VCR.

It's probably this one:
MSI RX9250-T128
One VGA port, TV-Out ("S-Video") port
http://us.msi.com/index.php?func=pr...

- 7-pin S-Video and AV Out (TV-Out)
- the video chipset supports DirectX 8.1

"S-Video" - a true legacy S-Video connection needs only 4 pins / 4 pin holes. The "S-Video" ports for computer video adapters have more than 4 pin holes, but a legacy 4 pin S-Video male connector is compatible with plugging it into the 7 pin hole "S-Video" port.

TV Out output - the video is processed through a chip to conform to legacy TV standards. You connect it to an older TV's or a VCR's Composite video female RCA jack input - yellow - or to a legacy S-Video jack (female, 4 pin holes) input.

"S-Video" 7 PIN Connector Pinout
http://www.allpinouts.org/index.php...

To use a legacy S-Video cable (male - 4 pins on both ends) you plug it directly into the 7 pin hole connector;
or - to use a RCA cable (male on both ends) you use a standard legacy S-Video (male 4 pins) to RCA female adapter in the 7 pin hole "S-Video" port

You use one or the other - S-Video or composite video (RCA cable connection)

A S-Video connection yields slightly better video than a Composite video connection.
.......

"QUESTION 2 : Could I connect an LCD monitor to this card?"

Yes, if it has a VGA ouput video cable (15 pin male D-Sub connector).
There's no such thing as a DVI (female) to VGA (male) adapter that will work with a VGA (female) video adapter port - not enough wiring connections - but there are standard DVI (male) to VGA (female) adapters that will work with most DVI (female) video adapter ports.
....

(Adobe CS4 stuff)

" * Some GPU-accelerated features require graphics support for Shader Model 3.0 and OpenGL 2.0 "
* Some features in Adobe Bridge rely on a DirectX9-capable graphics card with at least 64MB of VRAM "

"QUESTION 3 : Does my MSI RADEON 9250 fit the system requirements of Adobe CS4?"

Your card has....
- 128MB DDR memory (Video Ram, or VRAM)
- Full support for DirectX® 8.1
- SMARTSHARDER™ enables cinematic quality. (that's probably supposed to be SmartShader)
- no mention of OpenGL support

It has twice the minimum VRAM, and Shader support.
DirectX 9 only features will be auto replaced with lesser features, and it has no stated OpenGL support.

For the time being, you could just install it and see how it goes with Adobe CS4.
...

QUESTION 4 : What is the difference between "video input" and "video output"?

All video cards can produce video - have video output - but an additional chip is needed on the card in order for the card to be able to accept video input - video from another source.

My R9200-128DV - REX - Oops - it's made by ECS and it's Radeon 9200 not 9250.
One VGA port, one DVI port, TV-Out (S-Video), Video in (VIVO - Video In, Video Out)
http://www.ecs.com.tw/ECSWebSite/Pr...

REX, as in, Tyrannosaurus REX - it has an image of one on the blue plastic and the large letters REX. It has several colors of leds under the blue plastic that flash randomly when the computer is running. Cool.

The large black chip next to the blue plastic is an ATI Theatre chip which is used for video input. The Theatre chips were also used on ATI AIW video (All-In-Wonder) cards that supported video in and video out (VIVO) and also had a TV tuner, and on other ATI chipset TV tuner and video editing cards then and now.

9-pin VIVO - support S-Video In/Out and AV In/Out

It's another kind of "S-Video" port used only for computer video adapters.

9 pin mini-DIN (VIVO) Connector Pinout
http://www.allpinouts.org/index.php...

A wiring "dongle" comes with the card.
It has
- a legacy S-Video female connector - 4 pin holes
- a female RCA jack for composite video OUT - TV Out (uses 2 pins)
- a female RCA jack for composite video IN - TV IN (uses 2 pins)

TV Out output - the video is processed through a chip to conform to legacy TV standards. You connect it to an older TV's or a VCR's composite video female RCA jack input - yellow
You use one or the other - S-Video or Composite video (RCA cable connection)

TV IN input - accepts video input from a VCR, or an older DVD player (from a yellow female RCA jack).
...

"Oops, I wrote "USB disk", but I meant "USB flash drive""

You could use a USB flash drive, but you probably can't store as much on it at a time as on an external hard drive.
...

""You also have the option of getting a SATA drive, if you also get a PCI SATA drive controller card (as cheap as $30 or under where I am) , or another type of adapter (similar price or less) that can adapt a SATA drive for use on a mboard that has no built in SATA controllers or SATA data headers - you may also need a wiring adapter for the SATA power socket on the SATA hard drive if your power supply doesn't have that.""

"QUESTION 5 : Thinking of the future, preferring to buy a hard disk drive that I can eventually use in the new "up to date" computer that I want to try to build, after my MS-6714 is fully functional, can I use the latest hard disk drive standard in my MS-6714 - what is the latest, SATA 3, or is there another later version?"

There are three SATA spec standards so far (for hard drives).

The original SATA spec a.k.a SATA 1 or SATA I - 150 mbytes/sec max burst data transfer speed.
The SATA II a.k.a SATA 2 spec - 300 mbytes/sec max burst data transfer speed.
The SATA III a.k.a. SATA 3.0 spec - 600 mbytes/sec max burst data transfer speed.

Sometimes they're rated in gbps.
That's giga bits per second, NOT giga bytes per second.
A bit - it can be either on - 1 - or off - 0 (zero).
All data on computer drives and memory devices is store in bytes - there are 8 bits per byte.
EIDE (PATA) hard drives transfer data at 8 bits per byte.
SATA hard drives transfer data at 10 bits per byte, not 8.
So....
- 150 mbps (mbytes/sec) = 1.5 gbps (gbits/sec)
- 300 mbps (mbytes/sec) = 3.0 gbps (gbits/sec)
- 600 mbps (mbytes/sec) = 6.0 gbps (gbits/sec)

Max burst data transfer speed - the drive does not transfer data all the time at that speed - it can only be used for short periods of time, the amount of time depending on the amount of "cache" ram on the drive's board. If the drive is accessed continuously for a huge transfer of data, that rate can be maintained for no longer than, say, two minutes, then the drive reverts to it's max continuous data transfer rate, which is slower - e.g. I don't know of any conventional drive that has a higher max continuous data transfer rate of more than 100mb/sec (mbytes/sec).

Most SATA III hard drives so far are solid state - they have no moving parts. They have a higher higher max continuous data transfer rate than conventional hard drives. In theory they should last longer than conventional hard drives.The drawbacks are they cost a lot more per gb, and there is a lot lower max capacity.

There are a few conventional SATA III hard drives, but they have the same old lower max continuous data transfer rate, and they are still relatively expensive.

I have not seen any PCI SATA III rated drive controller cards so far.

So - SATA III drives are probably not doable for your case.

All new and fairly recent PCI SATA drive controller cards support SATA II drive specs, and new SATA drives support SATA II specs.
You can install a PCI SATA drive controller card in either of your mboards and be able to get the full 300 mbytes/sec burst data transfer speed from a SATA II hard drive
........

"QUESTION 6 : What must I look for in my manual to determine what "bit" the MS-6714 chipset supports?"

"48 bit" LBA support was not mentioned in mboard manuals until after the main chipset on the mboards supported it, and even so that's not always in the manual.

The Intel 845 main chipset on the 6714 (and probably whatever main chipset is on the other) mboard cannot support recognizing drives larger than 137gb, but you can still get 120gb drives, and if you use a PCI EIDE (PATA) or a PCI SATA drive controller card, it has it's own "bios" and any size of drive connected to it will be recognized as it's full size.

"QUESTION 7 : What size hard disk drive would be a good size to start with (for my future computer, not for my 6714) if I wanted to install Windows XP, Linux and Adobe CS4, swap space, video files, audio files and document files, etc. without overdoing it?"

In my view, it all depends on how greedy you are. I have a 13.6gb drive on my Win 98SE computer that I've never completely filled up. I have another 15gb drive on the same computer, but the data on the two drives is nearly the same - each drive is a back up for the other one.

If you aren't going to be downloading a lot of illegally gotten music, movies, games, etc. like many people do, or installing other things that take up a huge amount of drive space, even a 120gb drive would be a good size to start with.
If you get a drive larger than that, e.g. 160gb, or 250gb, or 320 gb, or 500gb, they aren't that much more expensive, but you will need to buy a PCI EIDE (PATA) or a PCI SATA drive controller card (e.g. $30 US and up).

"QUESTION 8 : Is it a better idea to have two internal hard disk drives in a computer instead of one so that one of them be used for backup of files?"

Yes. It's best not to "put all your eggs in one basket" .

"QUESTION 9 : Which manufacturer proofed to produce the most reliable hard drives?"

Proofed ? All hard drive brands these days seem to be very reliable. However, some conventional desktop (3.5") drives have 5 year warranties - most Seagate models, some Western Digital models - some have 3 year warranties. (All conventional laptop (2.5") drives have 3 year warranties - they're not as durable as desktop drives.)

"THANK YOU."

We always appreciate that.


Report •

#106
January 15, 2011 at 06:23:46
this is the longest post ive ever seen give up and buy a new one lol

Davidw


Report •

#107
January 15, 2011 at 07:40:49
Davidw

There are a few Topic threads on this web site that have even more posts, but this one may have more words in it.


Report •

#108
January 15, 2011 at 07:53:36
true tubes oh by the way got my hardrives cloned switched around and working on those 2 computers i was working on i beleave you helped me with

Davidw


Report •

#109
January 15, 2011 at 08:15:54
Davidw

I don't find a Topic that has a response from me when I click on your name regarding that subject, but maybe you read another Topic where I did make a post or posts about that.


Report •

#110
January 16, 2011 at 11:18:43
In response to #105 :

I studied a bit more about graphic cards. I am so happy that I took this project on because I am learning more than I anticipated - it's so nice each time when I come to a point where I know that I know what I'm doing, instead of guessing and relying on luck, or thinking that I think I know while I don't know, or just taking anyone's word for it without checking it - I have a long way to go though (concerning my new found interest in computers), but every bit sussed is a bit sussed.

I will try to keep this thread as short as possible.

Thanks for the very interesting info on graphic cards.

I looked at your R9200-128DV - REX - it looks really cool.

Thanks for the info on hard disk drives and bits and bytes.

I backed up my files on a USB stick and on a friend's computer, and I got a copy of Windows XP Home Edition for my legitimate Product Key (Yay!), so I am ready to remove my 40GB drive from my 6309 and connect it to my 6714.

I also bought a good second hand screen for my 6714 for next to nothing.

QUESTION 1 : Before I remove my graphics card from my 6309, how do I get the integrated graphics of my 6309 to give me video so that I can use internet? (My monitor for the 6309 is presently connected to the graphics card that I want to remove. I will use a Live CD to connect me to internet once I have removed my hard disk drive from the 6309.)

QUESTION 2 : Once I removed my 40 GB HDD from my 6309, where must I place the jumper?

QUESTION 3 : Once I connected the hard drive in place of the 6.4GB hard drive that failed, must I format it before installing Windows, and if so, how do I format it?

QUESTION 4 : How and at what stage do I partition it - I want to install XP Home, Adobe CS4, Cakewalk SONAR LE and Open Office.

I decided that in my case it is better to look for a small hard disk drive (40 or 80, or no more than 120GB, if I can't find smaller than 120GB) for my 6714, because then I do not have to get a drive controller card or another type of adapter , and, if she gets resurrected successfully, my MS-6714 can be a nice computer to use for other purposes if I build my next computer - I can see that I do not know enough yet to rush into starting to build my first 'dream' computer. The 6714 is my learning curve so I'll try to get her up and running and stick with her with what I have, until I have built my first build, and if I find a small hard disk drive to fit my 6714, I will try to add it to the 6714..

Thanks for guiding me through this so far.


Report •

#111
January 16, 2011 at 15:03:16
"QUESTION 1 : Before I remove my graphics card from my 6903, how do I get the integrated graphics of my 6903 to give me video so that I can use internet? (My monitor for the 6903 is presently connected to the graphics card that I want to remove. I will use a Live CD to connect me to internet once I have removed my hard disk drive from the 6903.)"

When you remove the graphics card (unplug it when the AC power to the case has been removed) and plug the monitor into the onboard video port, you will have basic VGA video if the specific drivers for the onboard video have not been installed.
The same basic VGA video is what you get when you install Windows from the CD on the 6714, for the onboard video when the video card has not been plugged in , and for the video card when it has been plugged in (plug it in when the AC power to the case has been removed), unless Windows has the specific video drivers built in, which I doubt.

You first said it was 6309, not 6903.

It can't be 6903.
When I search with: ms-6903
the only significant "hits" are this one which is probably a typo:
http://vogt64.altervista.org/index....
- it has exactly the same main chipset,
and your Topic we're typing in.


Tell us what the Version (Ver x.x or V x.x ) of the 6309 mboard is - that's probably right beside the model number - and choose the Version of the mboard you have at the web page at the link in response 96 (this one)
http://www.msi.com/service/search/#...
(see the 6309 info I provided in response 96 if it's not version 1.0).

Find the Downloads (Drivers) for XP (XP 32) for the video, the main chipset, and any other device drivers listed there, and download them - if you have room for them on the flash drive, that's a good place to have them.

NOTE that I am having internet problems at the moment, but when I looked at the XP-32 Drivers for two of the 6309 versions MS-6309 (Version 1) and MS-6309 Lite, they DO NOT have onboard video, and they do NOT have a built in network adapter either.
If yours has onboard video, it has a 15 pin hole (female) D-sub port built into the mboard.
(A 9 pin - male - D-sub port is a serial a.k.a. Com port - you can't get video from that - it's commonly used for a serial mouse's cable, or for an external dial-up modem's serial cable)
If it doesn't have that video port, if you want video on the 6309, you need either another AGP video card, or a PCI video card.

"QUESTION 2 : Once I removed my 40 GB HDD from my 6903, where must I place the jumper?"

6309

If the 40gb drive is connected to a data cable by itself on the 6309, and if you connect in to a data cable by itself on the 6714, you don't need to change the jumper position.

If you connect it to a data cable on the 6714 that has another drive connected to it, one drive must be jumpered as master, the other as slave, or both drives must be jumpered as cable select.

By the way, the 40gb drive probably requires that you connect it to a 80 wire data cable in order for it to be able to run as fast as it can.

"QUESTION 3 : Once I connected the hard drive in place of the 6.4GB hard drive that failed, must I format it before installing Windows, and if so, how do I format it?"

"QUESTION 4 : How and at what stage do I partition it - I want to install XP Home, Adobe CS4, Cakewalk SONAR LE and Open Office."

If your bios Setup Boot Order or similar settings are set correctly on the 6714, when you insert the Windows CD in a drive and then boot the computer, you will see line on the screen while booting early in the sequence "Press any key to boot from CD." or similar. You press a key while that line is on the screen to boot from the Windows CD. (DO NOT press that key after Setup has Restarted the computer.)

When you boot the 6714 from the XP CD, some initial files will load from the CD, then you will see a screen where you can choose to Repair Windows or to Continue on to Setup - choose the latter choice. You may be asked if you want to enable large hard drive support - you must answer yes for any drive larger than 512mb (yes, mb, not gb).
You must agree to the Microsoft terms of use or similar.
Setup will examine the existing contents of the drive, and ask you where you want to install Windows.
If you don't want the data already on the drive, choose to delete the existing partition(s).
You then need to choose to make at least one partition to install Windows on. (I recommend you make at least two partitions when you have only one hard drive, the second one being smaller, for a place to store data you don't want to lose if you ever need to re-install Windows from scratch. See "Below" farther down in this post.)

When you have chosen to make a partition, Windows 2000 and up do the software partitioning and the formatting at the same time, the software partitioning always being a bit ahead of the formatting.

(In Windows ME and below you used Fdisk for the software partitioning, then Format, in two separate steps. People often assume they're only formatting a drive in 2000 and up when they make a new partition because only the initial messages you see are about software partitioning [NTFS, FAT32, or FAT if the partition is 2.1? gb or smaller], the rest of them are about formatting.)

Windows 2000 and up only shows you the NTFS software partitioning choice if the partition is larger than exactly 32.0 gb.

Choose the Full format, not the Quick format, so that the formatting will find and exclude from use any "visible' bad sectors found from being used.

(You can choose to use FAT32 software partitioning if the partition is smaller than than 32.0 gb and larger than 4gb, but Windows shows you the NTFS choice by default. You can use FAT32 software partitioning on any size of drive if you use a third party program to do that rather than Windows 2000 and up.)
NTFS = NT File System
(Windows NT is an older Windows operating system, older than 2000, that was used primarily by businesses and institutions. Windows 2000 and XP and up use some programming and terms based on what was used in Windows NT.)
FAT32 = File Allocation Table 32 bit.
FAT = File Allocation Table - there are several types, depending on the size of the partition, but usually Windows uses the 16 bit version.

Setup will load a lot more files for a while, then there will be a message that the computer will Re-start in 15 seconds - you can let it do that, or just press Enter.

DO NOT press a key to boot from the CD when you see the line for that while booting, after Setup has started - it will reboot automatically. If you press that key after Setup has Restarted the computer the first time, you will be starting to load the files from the CD from the beginning again.

In the second stage of Setup, Windows detects devices and installs drivers; it installs generic drivers for most things if it doesn't have specific ones.

Eventually you will be asked to choose your Time Zone, Location and Keyboard language - I find it easiest to just use the default US keyboard layout (your default keyboard may be different; I'm in Canada but most people here use keyboards that have the US keyboard layout), or you can choose a South African one of you have a South African layout (key placement arrangement) on your keyboard.

Eventually you will be asked to enter your Product Key. If you don't enter one that is acceptable to Setup, you can't continue to install Windows. Make sure that you don't make any typos - the Product Key is sometimes in a very small font (typeface) on the label and you may need to use a magnifying device to read some letters properly. There are never any zeros or ones or lower case Ls or capital i's in the Product Key.
......

Below

When you have only one hard drive...

Windows Setup defaults to making only one partition on a hard drive (or, a brand name software installation usually has only one visible partition on the single hard drive) .
The problem with that is if you ever need to re-load Windows (or the original brand name software installation) from scratch, you lose everything on the partition Windows was installed on, and when you have only one (visible) partition on the hard drive, that's everything on the drive - unless you copy the data you don't want to lose to elsewhere BEFORE you install Windows from scratch (most people don't bother, and lose all their data) .

If you're installing XP from a regular CD, it's recommended you make at least TWO partitions on the drive.
How to make more than one partition on a hard drive, when you're installing Windows on a blank hard drive, or when you are deleting the existing partition(s) on a hard drive before you run Setup .....
See Response 3:
http://www.computing.net/answers/wi...
......

See this for more info -
How to do an XP Repair installation step by step:
http://www.windowsreinstall.com/win...

That's for an XP Repair installation, but the procedure is the same except you need to delete and make at least one partition, and you will not have the second Repair choice, and that's for XP Pro but what you see in XP Home's Setup is nearly identical.
.......

Near the end of Setup, if XP has installed drivers for your network adapter, you will be asked if you want to Activate Windows. You can either do that then, over the internet, or by phoning a number that connects you to an automated answering machine, or you can do that after Setup has finished, by selecting to Activate Windows in your All Programs list.

If the XP CD does not have the drivers for the network adapter, you will not see that near the end of Setup. You need to select Activate Windows in your All Programs list.
If you want to do that over the internet, you need to install the drivers for the network adapter that's built into the 6714 first.

You have 30 days to Activate Windows
( unless your Product Key is found to be one of the ones Microsoft knows is being used illegitimately, after you have allowed the Windows Genuine Advantage program to be loaded and to run, in which case, you can NOT Logon into Windows itself until you DO have a valid Product Key).
........

If your XP CD does not have SP3 updates included.....

See Response 6
http://www.computing.net/answers/wi...
starting at
"If your XP CD does not have SP3 updates included, the best time to load them is right after you have installed Windows from scratch...."
.....

If your XP CD does not have any SP updates, you will have to load SP1 or SP2 updates before you load SP3 updates.

Regular Microsoft XP CDs have SP2 or SP3 printed on them if they have those updates included. All the regular Microsoft XP CDs that have SP1 updates included that I've seen DO NOT have SP1 printed on the CD, but the volume labels - the labels you see for the CD in Windows - for CDs with SP1 updates included are different from those with no SP updates at all - you can search using that volume label to determine whether it has SP1 updates or not.

XP re-installation CDs that come with brand name computers usually have SP2 or SP3 printed on them if they have those updates and they may have SP1 printed on them if they include those.

If your XP CD has no SP updates at all, you can make yourself a "slipstreamed" CD (preferably a CD-R) that has had the SP3 updates integrated into the original contents of your CD, and use that to install Windows by booting from it, along with using the original Product Key.



Report •

#112
January 19, 2011 at 09:33:56
Thank you for your response.

In response to #111 :

"You first said it was 6309, not 6903.

It can't be 6903.
When I search with: ms-6903
the only significant "hits" are this one which is probably a typo"

Oops. Yes, all the 6903's in this thread were typos, as from #97.

I edited post #102, #104 and #110 above correcting my typos of 6903 to 6309.
I could not edit the typo in #97, 8th last paragraph, where I typed 6903 instead of 6309, due to the edit expiry date.

"Tell us what the Version (Ver x.x or V x.x ) of the 6309 mboard is"

The version of my MS-6309 is V 2.x.

MS-6309 V2.x :
http://www.msi.com/product/mb/MS-63...

"Find the Downloads (Drivers) for XP (XP 32) for the video, the main chipset, and any other device drivers listed there, and download them - if you have room for them on the flash drive, that's a good place to have them."

I downloaded the drivers to the flash drive.

"NOTE that I am having internet problems at the moment, but when I looked at the XP-32 Drivers for two of the 6309 versions MS-6309 (Version 1) and MS-6309 Lite, they DO NOT have onboard video, and they do NOT have a built in network adapter either.
If yours has onboard video, it has a 15 pin hole (female) D-sub port built into the mboard."

My MS-6309 V2.x has onboard video with a 15 pin hole D-sub port built into the motherboard.

"By the way, the 40gb drive probably requires that you connect it to a 80 wire data cable in order for it to be able to run as fast as it can."

My 40 GB drive that is presently connected to my 6309, is connected with a 40 wire data cable. It was like this when I got the computer. I have a 80 wire data cable if needed.

QUESTION 1 : How do I determine which data cable to use?

"I recommend you make at least two partitions when you have only one hard drive, the second one being smaller, for a place to store data you don't want to lose if you ever need to re-install Windows from scratch. See "Below" farther down in this post."

QUESTION 2 : What size would be a good size for the partition for Windows XP Home Edition?

QUESTION 3 : Do I install Adobe CS4, Cakewalk SONAR LE and Open Office on the same partition as the partition on which I install Windows XP Home?

I wrote in #110 that I got a copy of Windows XP Home Edition, but it is not a copy, it is a CD that has the following printed on it :

"Windows XP Home Edition
W/SP1a Mecer/Posiflex
Product Recovery CD-ROM

Support for these products is provided by Mustek

The software on this CD-ROM was pre-installed on your hard drive at the factory and may be used for backup and recovery of your Mecer/Posiflex computer system. Performance of the software is the sole responsibility of Mustek

For distribution with a New PC Only"

I need to make a copy of this CD.

My MS-6309 has only one CD-ROM drive, but I have another CD-ROM drive, so I need to connect it to my 6309 so that I can make a copy of the XP CD?

Presently the 40 GB HDD and the CD-ROM drive are connected to the same data cable, the CD-ROM connected to the end connector and the hard drive to the middle connector.

QUESTION 4 : How do I connect the second CD-ROM drive?

QUESTION 5 : Where should the CD-ROM drive jumpers be placed (I also noticed a second jumper next to the power supply connector on each CD-ROM drive)?

QUESTION 6 : Is there a difference between copying and burning a CD?


Report •

#113
January 19, 2011 at 13:05:23
"The version of my MS-6309 is V 2.x.

MS-6309 V2.x :
http://www.msi.com/product/mb/MS-63... "

"My MS-6309 V2.x has onboard video with a 15 pin hole D-sub port built into the motherboard."

I looked at that support page, and it's manual. It DOES NOT have a VGA port or onboard video.

Pictures of and support for all the ms-6309 models:
http://www.msi.com/product/mb/#/?sk...

from response 96:
694T Pro (manual is for MS-6309 V 5.0)
694 Master (manual is for MS-6309 V 3.0)
MS-6309 (manual is for V 1.0)
MS-6309 Lite (manual is for Lite V 1.1)
MS-6309 SB (manual is for SB V 2.0b)
MS-6309 V2.x (manual is for V 2.2, 2.x)

In case you have the MS-6309 SB, Version 2.0b, I looked at the support and the manual for that too.

MS-6309 SB (manual is for SB V 2.0b)
http://www.msi.com/product/mb/MS-63...

It does NOT have a VGA port or onboard video either .

Both DO have a 15 pin hole port but it's a Game / MIDI port, or a Game port
D-sub shaped, wider, 15 pin holes in TWO rows.
PC Gameport+MIDI connector pinout
http://pinouts.ru/Inputs/GameportPC...
PC Gameport (Joystick) connector pinout
http://pinouts.ru/Inputs/GameportPC...
They do NOT have a VGA video port for onboard video.
D-sub shaped, narrower, 15 pin holes in THREE rows.
VGA connector pinout
http://pinouts.ru/Video/VGA15_pinou...

If you want the 6309 to have video, and the 6714 to use the 9250 card, you need another AGP video card, or a PCI video card, for the 6309.
If you have neither and can't get one from someone you know, if you want video on the 6309, then you'll need to either leave the 9250 card on the 6309 for the time being, or buy another video card, new or used.
............

"QUESTION 1 : How do I determine which data cable to use?"

Your 40gb drive is probably capable of at least UDMA 66 (Ultra DMA 66 - 66 mbytes per second) burst data transfer speeds.
If you supply the model number for the drive I could look that up.

All IDE hard drives capable of UDMA 66, UDMA 100, or UDMA 133 burst data transfer speeds should be connected to an 80 wire data so that they can run as fast as they are capable of when connected to the mboard, if the mboard supports at least UDMA 66 hard drive speeds, which both the 6309 and 6714 mboard main chipsets do.
If you connect such drives to a 40 wire data cable, they can't run any faster than UDMA 33 burst data transfer speeds (33 mbytes/second).

If there are two drives on a data cable, if either one or both require an 80 wire data cable, you are supposed to use an 80 wire data cable.

Most optical (CD or DVD) drives do not need to be connected to an 80 wire data cable if it is by itself on a data cable, unless the drive is a recent combo DVD burner drive (reads and burns both CDs and DVDs) that is capable of burning DVD-R or DVD+R disks at 16X or greater.

"QUESTION 2 : What size would be a good size for the partition for Windows XP Home Edition?"

If you want at least one other partition on the same physical drive, the size you make the first one for Windows is determined by that.
In this case, for a 40gb drive (manufacturer's decimal size; it's seen by the mboard's bios, Setup, and Windows as about 37gb binary size), I would make only two partitions, the second one quite small.
E.g. if you wanted a ~3gb second partition for somewhere to save datayiou don't want to lose, subtract that from the size Windows Setup shows you by default - 1,024mb per gb - change the number shown to subtract 3,072mb from the figure. Setup will use the closet value it can to your modified amount.

If you change your mind later about the size of the partitions, or the number of partitions, you can't change that in XP and below itself without losing the data that's already on the partition(s), but you can use a free third party prgram (generically a "partition manipulation" program) to change that without losing the data that's already on the drive, if the drive has at least a minimal amount of free space.

"QUESTION 3 : Do I install Adobe CS4, Cakewalk SONAR LE and Open Office on the same partition as the partition on which I install Windows XP Home?"

You can almost always choose to install programs that did not come with Windows on partitions other than C. C is the Express or whatever default choice, but you can choose a Custom installation or similar and choose to install it on the drive letter of another partition on the same computer. If you install it on another partition, only a little bit of it is installed on C, the rest is installed on the other partition. The personal stuff you add to the program is usually saved to C by default, but you can change the default choice.

If your hard drive were a lot larger, I would recommend you make a large partition for Windows and another large partition for at least some of your programs that did not come with Windows such as your Adobe CS4, because then it takes less time for programs that need to scan or modify the entire C partition to finish running, such as full anti-malware scans and De-fragging the C drive.
In this case, I would make only two partitions on the 40gb drive, the second one a lot smaller, Windows and all programs on the first partition.

"Windows XP Home Edition
W/SP1a Mecer/Posiflex
Product Recovery CD-ROM"
"For distribution with a New PC Only"

It sounds like your CD is probably identical to a regular Microsoft OEM CD except it has custom labelling on it.
Smaller brand name system builders often have that situation for the CD that came with it.
Only larger brand name system builders (e.g. Dell, HP, Compaq, Emachines, Gateway, Sony, etc., etc.) modify a few files in the contents of the CD so that the CD cannot be used with other than the brand name model it came with.
The CD will probably NOT refuse to install Windows, and the Product Key on the label on the 6714 will be accespted by Setup as valid.

You could confirm it will work by using it - if it works, you could copy it later.

If you want to make a copy of it, you need to make the copy in a CD burner (CD-RW) or a combo CD burner / DVD drive (CD-RW / DVD-rom, or CD-RW / DVD-RW). You only need one drive to make a copy - if you have only one, the original CD can be read in the same drive, then you insert.
You can make a copy of it in someone else's burner drive if you do nopt have one yourself. I recommend you copy it to a CD-R disk, not a CD-RW or other type of burnable disk.

If you just want to make a copy of it's contents as is, then you can use "Disk at Once" or simlar in a third party burning program to copy the entire contents of the CD including a file that makes the CD bootable that you can't see in Windows itself.
XP has a built in simple CD burning program - that can copy the disk too, but I have not used it and I don't know if you can select "Disk at once" or similar. I could look that up.

"Presently the 40 GB HDD and the CD-ROM drive are connected to the same data cable, the CD-ROM connected to the end connector and the hard drive to the middle connector.

QUESTION 4 : How do I connect the second CD-ROM drive?"

You don't need two drives in order to copy a disk, but you do need a burner drive. See above.

Normally you connect a single hard drive (if you have only one) by itself connected to the first (primary) IDE header, it's jumpered Master or Cable Select, and you connect the CD or DVD drive(s) to the second (Seconary) IDE header - if there is one drive, it's jumpered Master or Cable Seklet, if there are two drives, one is jumpered Master, the other Slave, or both drives are jumpered Cable Select.
I never use Cable Select jumpering myself.

On your mboards, it doesn't matter whether an optical (CD or DVD) drive is on the same cable as a hard drive or not - all drives will be able to achieve their max speed they can with the mboard, if the proper IDE cable is used (80 wire if any of the drives on a data cable require it).

"QUESTION 5 : Where should the CD-ROM drive jumpers be placed (I also noticed a second jumper next to the power supply connector on each CD-ROM drive)?"

I / we have already told you several times that IDE drives must be jumpered Master, or Slave if it's on the same cable as a drive jumpered Master, or Cable Select.

There are two horizontal rows of pins, 3 pins in each row, on the back of IDE optical (CD or DVD) drives usually next to the power connector. There must be a jumper on two of the pins vertically, where it goes depends on what the two pins are for. If there is not obvious easy to see printing there, there are letters etched into the plastic above the pins - use good lighting on the back of the drive to see them in that case
e.g. MA for Master, SL for Slave, CS for Cable select.

" QUESTION 6 : Is there a difference between copying and burning a CD?"

If you want to make another CD that is identical, you need to copy the contents of the CD onto a burnable disk, on a burner drive. In the case of copying a bootable CD, you must use "Disk at once" or similar to copy the entire contents of the original CD, including a file that makes it bootable that you can't normally see in Windows, otherwise the copy will not be bootable.

If you just want to copy files off of the CD onto a hard drive or a flash drive, etc., you don't need a burner drive to do that.



Report •

#114
January 19, 2011 at 13:35:10
In response to #113 :

"I looked at that support page, and it's manual. It DOES NOT have a VGA port or onboard video."

I will go check again.

"If you have neither and can't get one from someone you know, if you want video on the 6309, then you'll need to either leave the 9250 card on the 6309 for the time being, or buy another video card, new or used."

OK.

"If you supply the model number for the drive I could look that up."

Thank you.

Hitachi Deskstar Hard Drive

* Manufacturer: Hitachi
* Model: IC35L060AVV207-0
* PN: 13G0221
* DPN: 0X0308
* Capacity: 40GB
* RPM: 7200
* Interface: IDE ATA/100


Report •

#115
January 19, 2011 at 18:58:25
In addition to a 15 pin VGA port having 15 pin holes in three rows, not two rows, on modern mboards and video cards, the plastic surrounding the pin holes in the port is usually bright blue.
The plastic surrounding the 15 pin holes in the Game / MIDI or Game port is usually a gold color, the pin holes are in two rows, not three.

The 40gb hard drive -
"Interface: IDE ATA/100"

ATA/100 a.k.a. ATA100 = UDMA5 in Windows XP and up ~ = UDMA 100 a.k.a. UDMA100
100 mbytes/sec max burst data transfer speed.

You should use an 80 wire data cable.
If you don't have one, here, they're about $5 or less brand new at places that have lots of computer parts.

All of the MS-6309 motherboards:

"On-Board IDE

• An IDE controller on the VIA® VT82C686A chipset provides IDE HDD / CD-ROM with PIO, Bus Master and Ultra DMA 33/66/100 operation modes. "

So the mboard main chipset supports the hard drive's max speed too.

The maximum burst data transfer speed for an optical drive is for a combo DVD burner drive is ATA66 a.k.a. UDMA 66.
That's the same whether the drive is connected via an IDE (EIDE) or SATA connection.

UDMA = Ultra DMA = Ultra Direct Memory Access.
ATA = AT Attachment - the IBM AT series was the first IBM (and PC) computer series to use IDE hard drives.
The IBM computer series before that were PC, then XT.
IDE = Integrated Drive Electronics - previous hard drives had most of the electronic circuitry on a separate drive controller card, and the circuitry on the drive was relatively simple. The IDE header is merely away of connecting the circuitry on the drive to the computer's PCI bus
PCI = Peripheral Component Interface.
The IBM AT series was the first IBM (and PC) computer series to use PCI slots and the PCI bus.

EIDE = Enhanced Integrated Drive Electronics - applies to drives capable of UDMA 33 burst data transfer speed or higher .
After SATA (Serial AT Attachment) drives came out, they came up with the term PATA = EIDE - all drives previous to SATA drives transfer data a parallel way; SATA transfer data a serial way.


Report •

#116
February 2, 2011 at 16:13:34
In response to #115, two weeks later.

Hello.

This is the MS-6714 resurrected from the dust.

I am alive and purring !

THANK YOU for helping my owner rescue me from rusting away up on a shelf in a garage and from becoming dump material!

She took a long time to get to know what makes me ME, and to understand my behavior and my moods, but she learned a LOT with lucky me as her guinea pig and with your help the past months!

I'm glad it's over. She really pulled, pushed and fiddled with everything of my inner parts wherever she could.

A summary of what happened the past two weeks :
She reviewed the entire thread reading from post #1 to the last post, because not all of what was written registered into her brain at first, example,
Quoted from #113 :
"I / we have already told you several times that IDE drives must be jumpered Master, or Slave if it's on the same cable as a drive jumpered Master, or Cable Select."
Oops.

She surfed the net to read more on topics in this thread.
She removed the CD drive from the MS-6714 and connected the DVD drive from the MS-6309 to the MS-6714.
She connected the floppy drive from the 6309 to the 6714.
She set the boot orders to floppy first, CD next, then HDD0.
She removed the 40GB hard disk drive from the MS-6309, connected it to the MS-6714 and adjusted the BIOS settings as needed.
She experimented with partitioning and after installing Windows XP Home Edition several times, each time to a different sized partition, with AdobeCS4 and the rest in the other partition(s), eventually understood exactly why a 40GB hard disk drive was not a very big drive for what she wanted to do, and had a giggle thinking of the 6.4GB hard disk drive she tested in earlier posts above for functionality. She eventually chose suitable sizes to make two partitions as you suggested.
She formatted the partitions with the FAT32 file system.
She installed Windows XP Home Edition.
She configured the computer for internet access.
She activated Windows.
She installed an Anti-virus.
She installed the Intel 845G graphics driver for the onboard graphics, because the Radeon graphics card in the MS-6309 did not fit in the slot of the MS-6714.
She installed the AC’97 audio driver.
She installed Service Pack 2 and Service Pack 3. She found it better to install the graphics driver BEFORE installing Service Pack 2, because when she installed Service Pack 2 before installing the graphics driver, the words on the screen was hardly legible and only part of a page was enlarged filling the full screen which made it hard and sometimes impossible to move the cursor to a scroll bar. She did not make a slipstreamed CD.
She installed AdobeCS4.
She installed Cakewalk SONAR LE.
She installed OpenOffice.
She installed whatever else was needed.
She copied her backed up files to the hard drive.

She discovered the hard way that to have a separate partition for the Windows operating system alone, sufficient hard disk space on that partition must be available for files added "by itself" as time goes on, plus sufficient free space for defragmentation.

Photoshop did not load until she changed the color profile in Windows' Color Management to sRGB.

If she upgrades from 1.5GB RAM to 2GB Adobe CS4 will run much better, and more than 2GB RAM is recommended for running multiple components.

But for now, other than a slightly noisy fan, things are functioning much nicer than with the MS-6309, and she has moved three big steps forward -
1. she has learned a lot about computers, and is ready to start looking into building her first brand new PC to meet all her requirements,
2. she has started to learn and play with Adobe CS4 to get acquainted with it and build up experience, and
3. Granny can now have the MS-6309 to learn Windows and a program with which she can write her stories (because the ink ribbon of her antique type writer is worn out, and the keys are heavy for her frail fingers to hit) !

And it did not cost a cent, just time, perseverance and someone as great as you to help her kindly through this all this time.

THANK YOU SO MUCH !!!

Purr, purr, purr.

Mission is complete.

Yay!


LAST QUESTIONS :
QUESTION 1 : After connecting the "40GB" hard disk drive and deleting the entire contents on the disk in order to partition and format it, why did the "40GB" hard disk drive show that it had 38147MB and not really 40GB?

QUESTION 2 : Windows XP created an 8MB partition by itself, what for and why would Setup not enable me to delete it ?

QUESTION 3 : Is it necessary to install a driver for my monitor?

QUESTION 4 : Why must Service Pack 2 be installed before installing Service Pack 3 - why can't Service Pack 3 be installed to use without Service Pack 2 installed?

QUESTION 5 : When talking to someone who has worked with computers much longer than I have, about the fact that I had no graphics card for my MS-6714 and that according to Adobe CS4 system requirements I needed a graphics card compatible with Adobe CS4 if I wanted to run Adobe CS4 properly, I was asked something in the lines of the following that threw me off my track of thinking,
"Why can't you use your onboard graphics (of the MS-6714) for Adobe CS4 and just download DirectX8 (or9), Shader Model 3.0 and OpenGL 2.0 ?",
and
"Is it really necessary to get a graphics card for Adobe CS4, because maybe they just added extra features to it that are not necessary, because surely they were able to create nice stuff with Adobe many years back when these new features weren't there?",
and then I realized that I could not explain to them that my onboard graphics weren't good enough for Adobe CS4, because I did not know the specs of my integrated graphics, I only knew the system requirements for Adobe CS4, so they said, "Try your onboard graphics and see if it works, maybe it's good enough", but I wondered, "Learning Adobe CS4 as a beginner will take me a long time before I will know what all it offers and what all can be done with it, is this really the correct way to tackle Adobe CS4 as a beginner in order to determine whether or not my onboard graphics support Adobe CS4 well, because if it doesn't, my learning experience with Adobe CS4 will be very frustrating if incompatible graphics gave me uphill while learning the program?"
So my question 5 is : Without having to spend days learning Adobe CS4 in order to determine whether or not my onboard graphics support Adobe CS4 nicely, how could I determine whether or not it would work nicely by looking at the specs of my onboard graphics? (See * below)

System Requirements for Adobe CS4 :
http://kb2.adobe.com/cps/406/kb4062...

- 1,024x768 display (1,280x800 recommended) with 16-bit or greater video card
- Some GPU-accelerated features require graphics support for Shader Model 3.0 and OpenGL 2.0
- Some features in Adobe Bridge rely on a DirectX9-capable graphics card with at least 64MB of VRAM

The specs from my MS-6714 manual of my integrated graphics :

Intel® 845GV GMCH chipset (760 mBGA)
- Support FSB 400MHz (845GL) /533MHz (845G/845GE/845PE/845GV).
- Multiplexed AGP and Intel® DVO port Interface.
- Integrated 3D/2D graphic core (Core frequency= 200 MHz, 350 Mhz integrated 24-bit RAMDAC).
- Support PC2700 (DDR333) technology (845GE/845PE).
- Support PC2100 (DDR266) technology (845G/845GL/845GV).

* How do I determine -
1) the VRAM of my onboard graphics of my MS-6714?
2) whether or not my onboard graphics support DirectX® 8.1?
3) if it has OpenGL support?


Report •

#117
February 3, 2011 at 14:49:57
"QUESTION 1 : After connecting the "40GB" hard disk drive and deleting the entire contents on the disk in order to partition and format it, why did the "40GB" hard disk drive show that it had 38147MB and not really 40GB?"

40gb is the drive manufacturer's size, stated a decimal way (based on powers of 10) , e.g. 1gb = 1,000,000,000 bytes = 1 billion bytes. They've always done that for hard drives (and for flash drives, and memory cards) and in most people's opinion that has always been a bogus way to state the size of the drive.

Most, if not all, mboard bioses, and ALL operating systems, detect the size of the drive a binary way (based on powers of 2).
E.g. 1kb (kilobyte) = 1,024 bytes, 1 mb (megabyte) = 1,024kb, 1 gb (gigabyte) = 1,024 mb.
1 mb = 1,024 bytes/kb x 1,024 kb/mb = 1,048,576 bytes
1 gb = 1,024 bytes/kb x 1,024 kb/mb x 1,024 mb/gb = 1,073,741,824 bytes.

A ~40 gb manufacturer's size drive divided by 1.073,741,824 = it's binary size in the operating system = ~37.259..... gb = ~38,153 mb.
(The drive probably isn't exactly 40 gb manufacturer's size.)
The total number of bytes is the same, or very close to the same.

That's the "raw" size. Software partitioning the physical drive's hard drive partition(s) (using the NTFS, or FAT32 file systems) and formatting the hard drive partition(s) uses up a small percentage of that space, so the size of (a) partitions(s) on the drive data can be stored on is smaller than that (and doesn't / don't include the ~8mb of unallocated space Windows normally makes, if you use all of the drive's space).

Why express the size a binary way ? The smallest unit of data is a bit - it can either be off - stored as 0 (zero) - or on - stored as 1. So - it makes perfect sense to use a size designation based on powers of 2, rather than 10.
All data on a hard drive (or on a flash drive, memory card, floppy disk, CD or DVD disk, etc., etc.) is stored as 0's and 1's. There are 8 bits to a byte - all files and folders are stored as a series of bytes.
(SATA hard drives transfer data at 10 bits per byte, not 8; all previous hard drive standards including IDE ones transfer data at 8 bits per byte.)
.....

"QUESTION 2 : Windows XP created an 8MB partition by itself, what for and why would Setup not enable me to delete it ?"

Windows 2000 and up does that automatically - if you try to use the entire space on a physical hard drive for (a) software partition(s) , it makes one unallocated space of ~8mb (it varies a bit in size, 8.0mb + or - .2 mb or so) on each physical hard drive, at the end of the drive space. Apparently it's for possible NTFS use, even if the partition(s) on the physical hard drive is(are) not using the NTFS (NT File System).
Most people just ignore that because it's so small in relation to the total size of the drive. If that really bugs you, you can use a third party program to software partition and format the drive and use the entire drive space.

"QUESTION 3 : Is it necessary to install a driver for my monitor?"

They're actually a set of drivers, not one driver.
Windows XP (Win 95, 98, 98SE, ME, 2000, and XP; Vista and Windows 7 have something similar) will load Plug n Play Monitor drivers automatically in most cases. However, if you load specific drivers for your monitor model, then by default, Windows will only show you the display settings that both the monitor model and the specific video drivers for the video adapter support. If the monitor is LCD or Plasma, it's NOT a good idea to use Plug n Play Monitor drivers, because they were designed primarily for use with CRT monitors way back in 2001 or so when XP was first released, there have been no changes to them since, and you can select settings that can DAMAGE LCD or Plasma monitors !
.....

"QUESTION 4 : Why must Service Pack 2 be installed before installing Service Pack 3 - why can't Service Pack 3 be installed to use without Service Pack 2 installed? "

If the XP CD has no SP updates at all integrated into it, apparently you must install SP1 or SP2 updates in an existing XP installation before you can install SP3 updates.
However, the Windows CD may have SP1 updates integrated into it already.
See response 3 in this:
http://www.computing.net/answers/wi...

The alternative is you can make yourself a "slipstreamed" CD by using the contents of your XP with no SP updates CD and follow a procedure to integrate SP3 updates into the contents, then follow a procedure in a specific type of burning program module to make the CD the right way for it to be a bootable Windows CD, and use that burned CD to install Windows on your computer, along with your original Product Key.
(You would need access to a computer that has at least a CD burner drive, preferably a CD-R disk, the right type of burning program module, and a description of the procedures.)
......

"QUESTION 5 : When talking to someone who has worked with computers much longer than I have, about the fact that I had no graphics card for my MS-6714 and that according to Adobe CS4 system requirements I needed a graphics card compatible with Adobe CS4 if I wanted to run Adobe CS4 properly, I was asked something in the lines of the following that threw me off my track of thinking,
"Why can't you use your onboard graphics (of the MS-6714) for Adobe CS4 and just download DirectX8 (or9), Shader Model 3.0 and OpenGL 2.0 ?" "

XP already has DirectX 9.x built into it - you can update that a bit, but you can't load DirectX 10 or higher in XP.

If you load a higher software version for a feature than the video hardware supports for that software, simpler features are auto substituted for the specific things only higher versions support. You still have video but the fancier features the hardware doesn't support aren't displayed as intended.

Apparently you could use the onboard video, but sharing ram with the onboard video always reduces the max bandwidth - max data transfer rate - of the portion of the ram installed in the mboard that Windows itself uses, to as little as half what it would be if you were to use a video card in a mboard AGP slot instead - installing an AGP card in the 6714 automatically disables the onboard video and stops sharing the ram with the onboard video. Video intensive programs, e.g. probably at least some of the programs in Adobe CS4, greatly benefit from NOT having the max bandwidth of the ram reduced due to using onboard video.

"Is it really necessary to get a graphics card for Adobe CS4, because maybe they just added extra features to it that are not necessary, because surely they were able to create nice stuff with Adobe many years back when these new features weren't there?"

"So my question 5 is : Without having to spend days learning Adobe CS4 in order to determine whether or not my onboard graphics support Adobe CS4 nicely, how could I determine whether or not it would work nicely by looking at the specs of my onboard graphics?"

The only way you can determine that is to try Adobe CS4 and determine what you do want to use and what you don't want to use, and see how the onboard video or the 9250 card work out for you.
Adobe makes programs that take a long time, not just days, to learn how to use properly.

" * How do I determine -
1) the VRAM of my onboard graphics of my MS-6714?
2) whether or not my onboard graphics support DirectX® 8.1?
3) if it has OpenGL support? "

6714 models search results on the MSI web site - apparently MSI is presently fiddling with their web site and the link I provided previously no longer works.

This new link works:
http://www.msi.com/service/search/?...

There are 5 possible models.

OtheHill said previously yours is probably the fourth one, but you stated several times that yours is Version 1.x.

The fourth and fifth one are version 5.x, and the pictures show they are RED.

The first three all have the same manual E6714v1.0.pdf (E for English) - they're GREEN in the pictures.
Apparently they're the same except for the particular Intel 845 main chipset version, and some come with the onboard LAN (the network adapter), some don't have that.

It seems there is no difference regarding the onboard graphics for the different Intel 845 main chipset versions.

I looked at the E6714v1.0.pdf manual.

In the Bios Setup settings descriptions -

Advanced Chipset Features

Onchip VGA - Enable / Disable ?

The onboard video is probably disabled automatically when you install an AGP video card - that's probably for if you want to install a PCI video card, which does NOT normally auto disable the onboard video.

Onchip VGA Frame Buffer Size
The field specifies the size of system memory allocated for video memory - 1mb / 8mb

That's the amount of VRAM - video ram - the onboard video uses - you can select either, 1mb is probably the default.

Adobe CS4 requires a minimum of 1mb of VRAM - you could use the 8mb setting, but the 9250 card will probably perform better with it's 2mb of VRAM because the ram won't be having it's max bandwidth ~halved, at least certainly for Adobe CS4 features that greatly benefit from that.

82845G Graphics controller - main support page
http://www.intel.com/p/en_US/suppor...

Graphics
OpenGL* support
http://www.intel.com/support/graphi...

"This applies to:
Intel® 82845G Graphics Controller "

Desktop graphics controllers
DirectX* support
http://www.intel.com/support/graphi...

"The Intel® Extreme Graphics controllers are compatible with versions of Microsoft* DirectX* up to 9.0. They are also compatible with previous version of DirectX (8.x, 7.x, 6.x and 5.x)."
http://www.intel.com/support/graphi...

"This applies to:
Intel® 82845G Graphics Controller "
.......

Apparently the Radeon 9250 video chipset DOES support OpenGL - that info was just missing in the info on the web site for your particular brand and model of card.

SAPPHIRE 9250 Specifications
http://www1.sapphiretech.com/en/pro...

"Full support for Microsoft® DirectX® 8.1 and DX9 compliance and the latest OpenGL® functionality"

"VIDEO IMMERSION™ and FULLSTREAM™ technologies which provide for amazing video playback quality."

So - the only slight disadvantages of your Radeon 9250 video chipset card is it's hardware doesn't support Direct 9.x only features, and it has 2mb VRAM rather than the 8mb possible for the onboard video.

I think you will find the card will yield you better overall results than the onboard video set to use 8mb because the ram will not have it's bandwidth ~halved when the AGP card is used.


Report •

#118
February 20, 2011 at 07:33:04
Once again, thank you so much for all your help and information.

The graphics card in the 6309 did not fit in the slot of my MS-6714 and I decided not to get a graphics card for my MS-6714 computer, but rather invest such money in the computer that I plan to build next. The onboard graphics of my 6714 are not too bad.

However, I can see that my system is not ideal for running Adobe CS4, yet I can say that for someone who has no other PC yet, work can be done with Adobe CS4 with a little patience, as long as one don't go wild having multi applications open at the same time.

This thread is solved.


Report •

#119
February 20, 2011 at 10:58:13
We're glad to hear your computer is working well and you're tying up this thread.

I'm not surprised that Adobe CS4 is slow on this system
Graphics intensive programs often demand a lot from your system.

"The graphics card in the 6309 did not fit in the slot of my MS-6714 ..."

Huh ?

What was the problem ?

Usually newer AGP cards with ATI video chipsets will plug into any AGP slot because they have the universal arrangement where the contacts are:

Scroll down here:
http://support.amd.com/la/kbarticle...

There is one other type of AGP slot - AGP Pro - that was used for a short time on some mboards, it is longer, but if the card has the universal arrangement where the contacts area, the card will plug into that type of slot too and work fine.

AGP vs AGP Pro
http://www.evga.com/articles/public...


Report •

#120
February 25, 2011 at 13:02:36
"Huh ?

What was the problem ?"

The card would plug into the slot if there weren't things in the way of the card - the space in the case is uncomfortably restricted.

I started a new thread : Help with futureproof PC build for Adobe CS5.
http://www.computing.net/answers/ha...


Report •

#121
February 25, 2011 at 14:33:04
"The card would plug into the slot if there weren't things in the way of the card - the space in the case is uncomfortably restricted."

Ah !

Surely you could install the mboard in a larger case.

Dead or discarded computers with larger cases are easy to find where I am, and even a new generic case with no PS can be very cheap to buy.
.......

"I started a new thread : Help with futureproof PC build for Adobe CS5."

I noticed that a few minutes ago, however, I don't know what the minimum components you would need would be, since I don't use any program similar to Adobe CS5.

I'm not an expert regarding new stuff.
My newest mboard came out about three years ago and it's using a cpu that first came out in about 2007. I have several other working computers that are older than that, and several more that could be working if I fiddled with them. The one I'm typing this on has components first made in 1999.

Graphics intensive programs tend to be very taxing on a system.

A few comments.

NO program has zero impact on performance.

The biggest bootleneck on moderm computers is the max continuous data transfer speed of the hard drives. The max burst data transfer speed of hard drives - e.g. 300 mbytes/sec for SATA II hard drives - cannot be used all the time for one continuous burst of data -at most the drive can move data at that speed in one "go" for, say, a couple of minutes . The max continuous data transfer speed of the hard drives is always less - e.g. 100 mbytes/sec or slower.

Most people have NO programs that can actually use more than one cpu core, with the exception of some fairly recent and new high end games - some support two cpu cores, a few recent ones support three, I've been told.
SOME graphics intensive software, high end scientific and mathematical programs, etc. support more than one cpu core.You could check for that regarding Adobe CS4.
When a program does support using more than one cpu core, usually that's only supported in Vista or Windows 7, or in a Server operating system, not in XP or 2000.

So - at the present time and for the foreseeable future, you don't benefit from more than 2 or 3 cpu cores. Any more cores than that are never used.

However, newer cpu types are always more efficient than older cpu types, so even if you're only using one cpu core, newer cpus perform better overall, regardles of the ghz at which they run (the cpu ghz speed has not been a direct indicator of relative performance for a long time).

The Radeon 4250 onboard video (there may be a slightly newer Radeon one by now) is probably the best onboard video ever made so far.

However, onboard video sharing the memory installed in the mboard always reduces the max bandwith (max data transfer rate) of the installed ram, by as much as half, in comparison to the same ram in the same mboard not being shared with the onboard video and using a video card in a PCI-X16 slot instead, on top of the effect of some of the ram amount that was being shared being available when you use a video card.
You notice the difference most when a program definitely benefits from the higher max bandwidth. Adobe CS5 is likely one of those programs .

You could try a mboard that has Radeon 4250 or higher onboard video, and if that's not good enough for Adobe CS5, get a video card later.



Report •

#122
February 27, 2011 at 05:30:37
“Ah !

Surely you could install the mboard in a larger case.”

:-) Good idea. I didn't think of that. I have two unused, old, but good cases.

“A few comments.”

Your few comments shed MUCH light on the matter. Thanks.

“NO program has zero impact on performance.”

I understand. I was wishing for as close as possible.

“The Radeon 4250 onboard video (there may be a slightly newer Radeon one by now) is probably the best onboard video ever made so far.”

I see that the GIGABYTE GA-890GPA motherboard's onboard video chipset is the Radeon 4290.

“You could try a mboard that has Radeon 4250 or higher onboard video, and if that's not good enough for Adobe CS5, get a video card later.”

Good idea, thanks. The price differences between the boards with no onboard video and the boards with onboard video are small compared to buying a graphics card, so should I find that the onboard graphics are not good enough for Adobe CS5, and get a video card later, the few extra dollars spent on the onboard graphics would not have hurt my pocket.

“So - at the present time and for the foreseeable future, you don't benefit from more than 2 or 3 cpu cores. Any more cores than that are never used.”

Interesting topic that fascinates me now, so I started a new thread, “4 and more cores? Bottlenecks?”,
http://www.computing.net/answers/cp... ,

because with your suggestion to install my 6714 motherboard in a larger case, if I want my graphics card to fit, this “Help me resurrect a throw-away MS-6714 VER:1” thread is solved :-).

Thank you for solving this thread. I am still working happily with my resurrected MS-6714 - the one I'm typing this on - thanks to you.


Report •


Ask Question