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Hard Disk partition advice required

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Name: Kerr Avon
Date: June 16, 2005 at 20:33:53 Pacific
OS: XP home
CPU/Ram: AMD Athlon, 1024Mb
Comment:

I am getting a new computer with 2x250Mb hard drives, which I want to partition. It will come with Windows XP home version pre-installed. However, ny supplier won't give me the XP installation disk, just a "system recovery disk".

I've never partitioned a HDD before and have been doing a bit of research. I know that Fdisk erases all the data on the drive(s) when it creates the partition, and I'm worried that the system restore disk won't work to re-install the OS afterwards.

I'm assuming that I could just back up the contents of the hard drive(s) (as far as I'm aware it will have windows XP on it and nothing else), partition them and then restore the backup to my chosen drive. Am I correct?

Also, I read in one of the articles about partitioning that it is a good idea to create a small DOS partition on the primary drive but am a bit unclear about how that is actually done. First of all, is it a good idea (I think the reasoning is that it is a handy failsafe in case all else fails and you can't get into your NTSF filestore for some reason). And if so, how do I go about actually getting that first partition to boot up with DOS.

FYI, I want the partitions so that I can have this DOS failsafe (maybe), Windows XP in it's own small partition, then separate partitions for my data files, applications and games software, music and video files, plus a couple of free partitions for future use (such as alternate operatings systems or whatever).

Thsi is all new to me though, so any advice or pointers would be much appreciated.

Cheers!



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Response Number 1
Name: Kerr Avon
Date: June 16, 2005 at 21:21:54 Pacific
Reply:

Just as an afterthought to the above, it occured to me that if the OS is installed on the first HDD (drive C:, say) and the second HDD (D:, for example) is empty, that I could possibly partition D: with impunity, then use the system restore disk to restore XP to the relevant logical drive on that drive, then go back into C: and partition that drive without having to care about losing the data that is on it.

Is this do-able, or am I talking rubbish through my ignorance of partitioning?


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Response Number 2
Name: Janos
Date: June 16, 2005 at 22:18:57 Pacific
Reply:

First things first...

Forget dos and Fdisk , it will not see the 250 gig hard drives....

If the suplier is isntalling the OS and dos not partition 2 250 gig drives I would say go somewhere else, he they dont know what they doing..

MY personal view only........

The best thing you can do is obtain the hard drive setup utility from the hard drive vendor...

Use it to setup the drives and than reload the OS...

However you can in fact partition the drives from within XP itself, as to the small dos aprtition you are refering to why would you ???

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Response Number 3
Name: hiho
Date: June 16, 2005 at 23:07:02 Pacific
Reply:

There has never been, there will never be, any MS-DOS in Windows XP, therefore forget MS-DOS you are using a Windows NT Operating System.

Windows XP Service Pack2 will see large hard drives over 137GB, therefore if if you have MS-DOS the drives would not be seen.

The "PC Expert" should partition the drives to your liking if not walk away. Nearly all new PC's come with a Recovery CD and quite often the PC has a hidden partition for storing neccessary files, which if you Format/Partition you may loose.

At the end of the day negotiate a price for a real copy of Windows XP OEM, here in the UK it is around £60 for HOME and £100 for PRO. It is false economy if you are spending shed loads of dosh not to spend a little extra to have your own copy of XP.


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Response Number 4
Name: Bryco
Date: June 17, 2005 at 03:58:50 Pacific
Reply:

"The "PC Expert" should partition the drives to your liking if not walk away."

I agree wholeheartedly.

The Expert should also answer any and all of your questions as it particularly relates to what s/he is selling you about how to use that restore CD. Microsoft requires that you a have license to use their product. Do make sure to get a ProductKey and I do hope it is WinXP with SP2 or else the restore CD won't be of much use to you in the future.

Bryan


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Response Number 5
Name: jam
Date: June 17, 2005 at 05:11:09 Pacific
Reply:

Everything you need to know about partitioning:

http://partition.radified.com/partitioning.htm

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Response Number 6
Name: Kerr Avon
Date: June 17, 2005 at 06:35:50 Pacific
Reply:

Thanx for the replies so far.

A few responses:

General: Most of the advice/guides you find on the net are a few years old and refer to 20Mb or 40Mb dives and advocate FDisk which, as the replies state, is no good for huge drives. This is, I think where most of my confusion arises.

Jam: Yes, I saw the radified.com guides, which is where I got this DOS partition notion from. Having gone back and read it all again, I see (or at least I think 8^) ) that he is essentially saying is it's a good idea to have a small FAT32 partition as your primary partition (C:) just in case of problems so that you can load DOS-based disk recovery programs.

The guide says: "If I were going to partition 120-GB drive today, for a system containing only this drive, I'd break it up like so. Note this is merely personal preference, and will give you an idea of what is possible:

4-GB FAT32 primary partition. FAT32 is DOS-compatible. Never know when you might need to load some DOS disk utilities, or install a legacy version of Windows. It's nice to be able to if need be. [C: drive]
.....[rest of drive break-down deleted]"

From what you guys are saying, this cautious approach (leaving yourself the option of loading DOS utilities) now seems obsolete (obviously, I understand that certain earlier versions of Windows won't run under NTSF and have to be on FAT32 partitions).

Janos, hiho, Bryce: All good points. However, I should point out that I am buying from a mass-market supplier. If I was buying from my local custom-built computer shop it'd easy to talk the guy through custom drive partitioning. With the big chains it's not really an option. Besides, it's the sort of thing I'd like to be able to do myself.

I should say that I'm assuming that when the computer arrives I'll have two 250Mb partitions. I may be pleasantly surprised and they will have broken them down for me and have XP installed in its own little partition, but I doubt it. And even if they have partitioned the drives into more than 2 x 250Mb, I will probably want to change the sizes to my own preferences.

Janos: I'll look into the partitioning facility within XP. Does this preserve the operating system, or still destroy the data, requiring the re-installation of the software?

hiho: Yes, I've read about these hidden partitions, which, correct me if I'm wrong, contain archive files that the recovery CD accesses to restore the system. That's why I'm worried about not being able to restore the OS after partitioning.

Is it possible to access this hidden partition? If so, and I backed up the contents to CD, I'm assuming I could copy them back after paritioning and use the restore CD.

Bryce: As far as I am aware, I will certainly get a ProductKey. It is a big, reputable, established supplier I am buying from, so I don't think there is any realistic chance of getting pirated software.

I suppose this opens up the further possibility that I could use a friend's copy of the XP disc, which it is my understanding would be legal since I will have my own, paid-for (as part of my system) product key (you're paying for the licence to use the software, not the media the files come on).


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Response Number 7
Name: jam
Date: June 17, 2005 at 07:11:18 Pacific
Reply:

Although I've never setup a small C: partiton like that, it kinda make sense...especially from a security standpoint. Many viruses are designed to attack the C: partition because that's "normally" where the OS is.

I tend to keep the partitions where the OS resides fairly small...15-20GB. It's much easier to maintain. Then again, I'm not running big HDDs anyway. I've been picking up WDC 60GB & 80GB when the go on sale ($20-30 after rebate) & currently have a couple of unused ones waiting to be put into service. Looks like the 120GB is gonna be the "cheapie" to get now though. Even my 60GB dual boot (WinME/WinXP) partitioned as 15/20/25 (FAT32) has a ton of room left & that's with a teenager who constantly downloads music.

The only thing I'd recommend is to keep the partition for the OS relatively small...it'll respond quicker & be easier to maintain. Anything beyond that is personal preference.

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Response Number 8
Name: Kerr Avon
Date: June 17, 2005 at 07:36:23 Pacific
Reply:

Thanx again Jam.

Yes, the radified guide also makes the point about viruses (and hackers) and the C: drive, though it admits this is unlikely to deter more hardy offenders.

Yep, I understand about keeping the OS partition small. That's the main reason that I want to partition.

Although I've never partitioned before, I'm reasonably computer literate and I'm reasonably confident that I'll figure out the actual partitioning procedure - my only real concerns are that I will not be able to re-install XP because I only have a recovery disc and these hidden partition files.

I just need someone to reassure me that I can preserve the system and these recovery files, either by backing up or by non-destructive partitioning.


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Response Number 9
Name: jam
Date: June 17, 2005 at 08:14:45 Pacific
Reply:

Have a look at this:

http://www.theeldergeek.com/hard_drives_05.htm

Asus A7N8X-X
1800+ @ 8.5 x 200MHz
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Response Number 10
Name: Janos
Date: June 17, 2005 at 09:57:40 Pacific
Reply:

To answer you question above yes you can keep all the data , using the xp tool will only add or remove new or old partition's or chnage size..

It will not allow you to remove the primary boot partition C:

Youmight want to consider this though..

As you will be receiving a system recovery cd that means you will in fact have a valid licence attached to the comp...

Therefore there is no breach of copy right if you use another copy of XP which is the same as yours and load it fresh...

Doing that will enable you to change add, or remove the partitons as you please...

But before you can do that you must make sure you are getting a valid licence, other wise stay away from it..

If that is the case i suggest you get the drive setup tools from the hard drive vendor burn the image to a cd and you can boot the comp from there use their tools which are drive spcific and follow the instructions, there are also specific drive diagnostic tools in ther also.

As for the dos partiton... Dont waste your time !!! This was a common practice which Ibm used long time ago to load the dos diagnostics on there then they used to hide the partition from view so it cant be seen..

Also what some used to do is create a hidden dos partition at the very start of the drive, which usualy was the C: hide it than load the OS on the next partition which was normaly the D: drive but the actual image was renamed to something else, so after the install what in fact you did see was something like IBM:System drive, etc..

I got caught with this big time quiet a few years ago with an IBM pc with Me on it, it took me about 15 minutes to finaly clcik what they had done..

To the best of my knowledge this practice is no longer used, most of the large system builders like that are now supplying the xp cd...

The only issue that you might thave is if your recovery cd has the image on it and all the hardware drivers are already installed...But in recent times I have noticed that a seperate cd is included which contains all the additional drivers and instructions on them, etc....

But in the end its realy up to you as to how you wish to proceed..

Jam is correct keep the C partition as small as you can, I have found that a 16 gig C partition works very well with xp, and been using this setup with great success..

But my curiosity is killing me why 2 250 Gig drives ???? thats 500 gig of storage space !!!

Regards

IF IT AINT BROKE, DONT FIX IT

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Response Number 11
Name: Bryco
Date: June 17, 2005 at 14:42:59 Pacific
Reply:

I am now thinking that investing in a copy of Norton (Symantec) Ghost or Acronis would take the worries away. I know you can get older versions of Ghost fairly cheaply. I don't know about Acronis.

From within Windows you can resize the second drive to your liking.
Then use your cloning program to place it onto the second drive.
Swap them out and then format and resize the other one.

So long as you make an image copy to CD or DVD then you don't have to worry about the supplied recovery CD.

A Langa List article about the hidden recovery partitions and regaining the space.

BootIt Next Generation (NG)
Boot Manager, Partition Manager and Imaging all in one package for $40 US is supposed to be good although I can not vouch for it since I have never seen it.

Bryan


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Response Number 12
Name: Kerr Avon
Date: June 17, 2005 at 15:52:04 Pacific
Reply:

Thanx once again for everyone's advice. I'll look at the various options you suggest and get back to you.

Janos said: "But my curiosity is killing me why 2 250 Gig drives ???? thats 500 gig of storage space !!!"

lol. Yes, it does seem like overkill doesn't it. What can I say? That's what the manufacturer had as standard on the system that was in my budget and was closest to the other specs I wanted regarding CPU, memory, screen size, graphics card et al.

And while 500gigs sounds a lot now, I remember about six years ago when I bought my current 'puter (PIII 500MHz) that I thought the 16gig HDD was MASSIVE (my previous computer before that, bought in 1990 was a 386 16mHz with an 80Meg HDD!!!)

But the 16gig has been full (or nearly full and I've had to keep deleting games and apps before loading new ones) for a couple of years now and that's without any great amount of music or video files. I'd also like to finally try out Linux one of these days to see what all the fuss is about.

In short, I'm sure that in time, even 500gig drives will fill up. 8^)


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Response Number 13
Name: Janos
Date: June 19, 2005 at 18:15:31 Pacific
Reply:

Hi

Tanls for the info , but you might be interested that your 500 gig is only 100 or so gig less than what my Company has as a whole.... And we have approx 5000 employees...Yep you right 5000..

With all of our current design engineering files, for CAD we have approx 400 GIG used...

So you chances of filling 500 gig are very small...LOL

But heck if its part of the basic spec so be it.. Enjoy thats what I say..

But what you might want to sonsider is using the 2nd drive as a spare storage, and removing it from the rig, untill you realy need to sue it...Less heat, less space to manage, less power consumption, etc...

Just an idea to consider....

Regards

and enjoy

IF IT AINT BROKE, DONT FIX IT

A8N-SLI Deluxe
AMD X64 3500+ Wnchst
Corsair 2x512 DDR400 Dual Channel
GV-NX6600128D PCIX Graphics Card
Ggbyte GT Pro CPU Cooler
Zalman VF700-CU VGA Cool


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