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ATA-4 on an ATA-2 Controller?

Original Message
Name: Liandri64
Date: March 26, 2008 at 21:50:08 Pacific
Subject: ATA-4 on an ATA-2 Controller?
OS: Not Installed
CPU/Ram: Pentium 100MHZ/16MB RAM
Model/Manufacturer: Acer (ACR9AE00-I05)
Comment:
I just installed a new Maxtor 90340D2 Hard Disk (3.4GB, ATA-4 Ultra) my old computer, described above... My old hard disk was a WDC WDAC2850 (853MB, ATA-2 Fast), and it may because of the incompatibility of the IDE controller, I'm not possible to do anything else except partitioning and formatting...

If I install Windows 95, the SETUP cannot load properly... Sometimes it say "Cannot Find GDI.exe" or some other files like USER.EXE and so on... Even if it was loaded properly, it says "Setup Cannot Continue" or say "General Protection Fault in XXXX" or something else... After the failure if I'm going to check the disk it shows File Allocation table is damaged.

If I install MS-DOS 7.10, it will exit with a word "Cannot copy files from the temporary folder"... After that, when I reinstall it says "There are no drives on your computer!" And I cannot see anything in FDISK after that.

Even HDD Regenerator will show "No Drives Found" if I'm going to check its bad sectors.

And at present, it's not possible to find an ATA-2 Hard Disk in my country, as it was too old to put on the market... Even the second-hand shop where I got this one didn't get one...

Is there any way to make it running well?

Please tell me.


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Response Number 1
Name: anmor
Date: March 26, 2008 at 22:16:07 Pacific
Subject: ATA-4 on an ATA-2 Controller?
Reply: (edit)
Have you tried setting bios to autodetect the hard drive?
The chances are bios is set to match the old drive.
Check bios to see if the correct drive is detected ie: 3.4gig not 853mb
If no autodetect hard drive available in your bios settings, you will need to manually enter the required settings.
The settings should be printed on the hard drive label.
Can we even be sure that the Maxtor drive is in good working order, it is after all a pretty old drive.
I found the hard drive settings for you, for the bios:
CYL-6558, HDS-16, SECT-63, WPCOMP-0, LZONE-0
I hope this helps.

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Response Number 2
Name: Tubesandwires
Date: March 27, 2008 at 00:07:21 Pacific
Subject: ATA-4 on an ATA-2 Controller?
Reply: (edit)
What anmor says is important, but if that isn't the problem.......

It sounds like the hard drive is defective.

Check your hard drive with the manufacturer's diagnostics.
See the latter part of response 1 in this:
http://www.computing.net/windows95/...

If you don't have a floppy drive, you can get a CD image diagnostic utility from most hard drive manufacturer's web sites, but obviously you would need to make a burned CD, preferably a CD-R for best compatibilty, on another computer if you need to.
.......

There's no such thing as an incompatible IDE controller. Defective IDE controlers are rare.
Installing a hard drive that can run at a faster data burst speed (e.g. 66mhz/sec, UDMA66, UDMA 4 in XP) on a mboard that supports slower data burst speeds (e.g. 33mhz/sec, UDMA33, UDMA 2 in XP) will work fine, except the hard drive can't run any faster data burst speed than the mboard chipset will let.
......

"If I install Windows 95, the SETUP cannot load properly... Sometimes it say "Cannot Find GDI.exe" or some other files like USER.EXE and so on... Even if it was loaded properly, it says "Setup Cannot Continue" "

If you are installing from a CD, if those are errors you get while reading from the CD, all of that can be caused by a defective CD drive, or a dirty laser lens in the drive, or by the CD being dirty or scratched, or by using a CD-RW burned copy of a CD rather than a CD-R.
You should not get ANY errors reading files from the CD.

"or say "General Protection Fault in XXXX" or something else
After the failure if I'm going to check the disk it shows File Allocation table is damaged.

If I install MS-DOS 7.10, it will exit with a word "Cannot copy files from the temporary folder"... After that, when I reinstall it says "There are no drives on your computer!" And I cannot see anything in FDISK after that.

Even HDD Regenerator will show "No Drives Found" if I'm going to check its bad sectors."

All of that sounds like a defective hard drive.


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Response Number 3
Name: Liandri64
Date: March 27, 2008 at 03:06:44 Pacific
Subject: ATA-4 on an ATA-2 Controller?
Reply: (edit)
...

I have already set the AutoDetect. Also, the BIOS shows the REAL hard disk size (1MB=1024K).

Looks like there are too many problems concentrating on Maxtor's hard drives... Ontrack DM could work a bit but not perfect.

There are NO bad sectors on that hard drive... Looks like I should obtain another one from different manufacturer such as Seagate or Western Digital... I don't think I'm going to get a Maxtor disk anymore because it IS incompatible.

I forgot to say, I have installed a NEW DVD-ROM drive and that Windows 95 CD is working fine. While copying the files to the hard disk, it will stop in the middle and say "Insufficient Disk Space" and then when I type DIR I saw a lot of gibberish!

Thanks for helping me find out what the real problem is, even I'm not able to solve this problem now.

EDIT: My Acer BIOS serial number is:
ACR9AE00-I05-951029-R01-N9

I don't know who has any information about this one... At least I should know how fast the burst speed the motherboard could let is.

It doesn't seem to support UDMA...

Once I booted with Wengier's Super MS-DOS 7.10 boot disk, the UDMAJR driver cannot be loaded for some reasons.


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Response Number 4
Name: jam
Date: March 27, 2008 at 08:24:42 Pacific
Subject: ATA-4 on an ATA-2 Controller?
Reply: (edit)
Start by trying a different IDE cable. And if you have both the HDD & optical drive on the same cable/channel, separate them & setup the optical drive as the 2ndary master.

Did you try Maxtor's PowerMax to verify the integrity of the drive?

http://members.shaw.ca/rinocanada/h...


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Response Number 5
Name: Tubesandwires
Date: March 27, 2008 at 10:22:58 Pacific
Subject: ATA-4 on an ATA-2 Controller?
Reply: (edit)
"I don't think I'm going to get a Maxtor disk anymore because it IS incompatible."

That is extremely unlikely to be the case. Your symptoms do not point to that.

"Looks like there are too many problems concentrating on Maxtor's hard drives... "

There are HUGE numbers of Maxtor hard drives out there! Not that long ago they sold more hard drives than any other maker. I have found no firm evidence they are any more likely to fail than other drive brands. You hear more about Maxtor drives failing not because they are worse than other drives, but because of the huge numbers of them.

Why would you not want to use a drive that tests fine?
It is extremely likely something else is wrong. If it were the IDE controller, you would have problems with ALL drives you connect to it, whatever way.

"Start by trying a different IDE cable."

It is common to un-intentionally damage IDE data cables, especially while removing them - the 80 wire ones are especially fragile. What usually happens is the cable is ripped at either edge and the wires there are either damaged or severed, often right at a connector or under it's cable clamp there, where it's hard to see - if a wire is severed but it's ends are touching, the connection is intermittant and unreliable.
You can have the same damage where the cable is sharply folded, more common with 80 wire cables.
Another common thing is for the data cable to be separated from the connector contacts a bit after you have removed a cable - there should be no gap between the data cable and the connector - if there is press the cable against the connector to eliminate the gap.

If in doubt, try another IDE cable!
.......

"While copying the files to the hard disk, it will stop in the middle and say "Insufficient Disk Space" and then when I type DIR I saw a lot of gibberish!

That could be caused by a poor data cable connection, or a poor connection in your ram slots.

A common thing that can happen with ram, even ram that worked fine previously, is the ram has, or has developed, a poor connection in it's slot(s).
This usually happens a long time after the ram was installed, but it can happen with new ram, or after moving the computer case from one place to another, and I've had even new modules that needed to have their contacts cleaned.

See response 2 in this - try cleaning the contacts on the ram modules, and making sure the modules are properly seated:
http://www.computing.net/hardware/w...

If this is a laptop, you must remove both its main battery and AC adapter before you do that.
.......

"It doesn't seem to support UDMA..."

Old mboards and old < 8gb hard drives often don't - they have only PIO modes, max.
IDE drives will work in any case, but can't run any faster than the mboard chipset supports.
Although, many drives 528gb or less do not use LBA translation and depending on the bios may not be detected if you use Auto or LBA - you have to use Normal mode, and possibly specific drive parameters if none of the drive types match close enough.



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Response Number 6
Name: Tubesandwires
Date: March 27, 2008 at 12:44:16 Pacific
Subject: ATA-4 on an ATA-2 Controller?
Reply: (edit)
"Acer (ACR9AE00-I05)"

"My Acer BIOS serial number is:
ACR9AE00-I05-951029-R01-N9"

It's not the serial number - it's a bios string - the last part changes if the bios is updated.

Acer Acros V30-2
a.k.a. V30-II, V30-ii, V30-11 (capital i looks the same as 1 in some fonts)

example bios string you may see as you boot the computer for V30-II
ACR9AE00-I05-950822-R01-N5 (Rxx-Nx is the particular bios version)
....

"The first two characters after ACR identify the mboard."
9A is V30, -2
"The last few are the bios version" - in your case R01-N9.
"the ones before that are the date" - in your case 1995, October 29

Page 22
http://www.electrocution.com/docs/b...
......

Acros V30-II a.k.a. V30-ii, V30-2, V30-11
http://www.acersupport.com/desktop/...
http://www.uktsupport.co.uk/acer/mb...
......

The Acer web sites no longer have complete info for your model /it's mboard even in the support for old Acros models.

This is the oldest one I could find the complete manual for - V35
http://www.elhvb.com/mobokive/Archi...

The third part is bios Setup settings. If your bios is very similar it should support recognizing drives up to at least 8.4gb.
It's a AMD bios, so it doesn't have the multiple bugs in it's code old Award bioses do that limit how large a hard drive the bios will recognize. Some AMD bios versions released in 1995 support recognizing up to a 32gb hard drive.

Acros V30 - very similar
http://www.acersupport.com/desktop/...
http://www.acersupport.com/desktop/...
http://www.uktsupport.co.uk/acer/mb...
http://www.retrevo.com/search/v2/js...
........

Your mboard chipset has only PIO modes as the fastest IDE data burst speeds - it can't run UDMA33 or above capable drives any faster than that.
......

In the very rare and unlikely case there's something wrong with the IDE controller(s), or of you just want to be able to use any size of hard drive with this mboard......

I have tried modern PCI EIDE (a.k.a. PATA) hard drive controller cards on similar old mboards - the card has a bios that supports recognizing any size of hard drive (48 bit LBA), but I found the drives still can't run any faster than the mboard chipset will let them on these old mboards.
You have to be able to select SCSI as a boot device and place it before any other hard drive in the boot order in the bios Setup in order to boot from a drive connected to the card - otherwise the drive cannot be booted from and can only be used to store data.
You can buy such a card for as little as $30 or less. Note that in order for optical drives to work on them, the controller chipset must support recognizing drives that use ATAPI. E.g many Promise chipsets do not, Silicon Image chipsets do.
....

The newer a drive is, the larger it's built in cache is likely to be, so a newer drive will probably run faster because of that reason while booting and in the operating system especially when smaller files are involved, plus newer drives often have a higher sustained data transfer rate than older ones. Burst data speeds only apply over short time periods of time and they use the cache on the drive to acheive that - if the drive continues to be accessed, the cache on the drive is no longer involved and the drive reverts to it's much slower sustained data transfer speed (fastest I've seen is about 55mb/sec on recent drives - older drives were MUCH slower).
....

You have SIMM ram. It has to be installed in matched pairs of the same size in specific slots, and preferably each module in the pair should be identical - it may not work properly if they are different. Not all mboards support EDO simms - if it does, all the modules must be EDO for the bios to use them in EDO mode, otherwise they run in FPM mode, about 15% slower if other specs are equal.

Your mboard syupports 128mb of ram, max.
I ran some tests with Sysoft Sandra on a similar mboard.

Win ME and 98 and 98SE work very well with that amount of ram, and work adequately with 96mb of ram, but if you have less than that your hard drive cannot run at it's fastest burst speed and the drive will do a lot of "thrashing" because the swap file on the drive has to be used a lot more.
.....

128mb is not enough for Win 2000 or XP to work as they should - minumum recmmended for XP is 256mb - they would be extremely slow in comparison to ME and previous with that amount.
64mb is probably enough for Win 95 to work as it should.
The original version of Win 95, and some versions after that, cannot make use of more than 8.4mb on a hard drive - the OS doesn't support FAT32.

Only Win95 OSR2 supports USB and FAT32, but even if you have that or a newer OS version your mboard bios cannot support a USB card because there is no onboard USB and therefore no USB support in the bios.


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Response Number 7
Name: Tubesandwires
Date: March 27, 2008 at 17:51:18 Pacific
Subject: ATA-4 on an ATA-2 Controller?
Reply: (edit)
"I have installed a NEW DVD-ROM drive "

This mboard is much slower than the minumum recommended for a DVD player, even if it has the max 166 mhz cpu on it and 128mb of ram. DVD playback will be poor.
If you use a video card with hardware DVD playback (mpeg playback) support, such as that built into an ATI Rage 128bit series or later, it will be better. (All ATI cards that series and later have hardware DVD playback support except some with V in the model number [for Value - el-cheapo].)


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Response Number 8
Name: Liandri64
Date: March 28, 2008 at 05:29:52 Pacific
Subject: ATA-4 on an ATA-2 Controller?
Reply: (edit)
Well, thanks. Can my motherboard run an ATA-4 Hard Drive? Is ATA-4 more than UDMA33?

Well, the only purpose for using a DVD is because my old 40X CD was broken and cannot read anything from the CD... Actually I use the discs only for files, seldom for audio or video for that computer. (As far as I'm concerned, it is the only computer that can run my old favorite DOS games well.)


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Response Number 9
Name: Tubesandwires
Date: March 28, 2008 at 08:33:24 Pacific
Subject: ATA-4 on an ATA-2 Controller?
Reply: (edit)
"Can my motherboard run an ATA-4 Hard Drive?"

As I've already said, any IDE drive will work connected to your computer, it just can't run any faster than the mboard chipset will let it, and the size of drive that can be detected is limited by the bios version it has, unless you use a recent PCI hard drive controller card.

If the drive tests fine with a good IDE cable, or when connected to certain connectors on an IDE cable, your problems are most likely caused by a damaged IDE cable connection, or possibly an intermittantly poor ram connection in the slots.

"Is ATA-4 more than UDMA33?"

Apparently it's the same as UDMA/33 - max 33mb/sec.
That's the max supported by 40 wire data cables - above that you have to use 80 wire cables, but only if the hard drive controller on the mboard supports faster than that.
ATA-2 is the same as Multiword DMA1, 13.3 mb/sec, or Multiword DMA2, a.k.a. ATA-2 Fast?, 16.6mb/sec.
A lot of CD, CD burner, DVD rom, and older DVD/CD burner drives are the latter.

See the table in this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parall...

The mboard probably cannot run a hard drive any faster than the second one from the top of the table.
..........

"...it is the only computer that can run my old favorite DOS games well"

I've had a lot of experience getting Dos games to run in Win 98SE, and even a few in XP recenty.
In XP you can often get the game to run but the settings in Autoexec.nt and Config.nt (what XP uses for Dos programs instead of autoexec.bat and config.sys) don't get the sound working even if you tweak settings from defaults.
I found there is an excellent free program you can load that gets most Dos games to work in XP AND has no problems activating the sound.
Other than some recent mboard chipsets that have no drivers for anything previous to Win 2000 or XP, you can get most Dos games to work on any computer.
Private message me on this site if you want more info about these things.


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Response Number 10
Name: Liandri64
Date: March 28, 2008 at 18:58:42 Pacific
Subject: ATA-4 on an ATA-2 Controller?
Reply: (edit)
I don't know about this actually...

The autodetected settings for the drive space of the larger hard drives show right while booting, but the drive space shows wrong in CMOS settings.

Are you meaning DOSBox? I've already have one but it cannot emulate the game perfectly.

Almost ALL games I want to play went very laggy with DOSBox, except VERY OLD games such as Thor Trilogy, which is unable to run in my Acer computer because the CPU is still too fast for it. (Probably for 286)


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Response Number 11
Name: Tubesandwires
Date: March 29, 2008 at 17:06:27 Pacific
Subject: ATA-4 on an ATA-2 Controller?
Reply: (edit)
"The autodetected settings for the drive space of the larger hard drives show right while booting, but the drive space shows wrong in CMOS settings."

If the drive's model number shows up while booting, that info is obtained directly from the drive itself. If a size is stated there that is merely labelling that was in the same place as the model number on the drive itself and has nothing to do with whether the bios is actually seeing the right size or not. I know of no bios that displays whatever size is detected while booting otherwise, and I know of no way it could do that.

Some old bioses will show the drive parameters correctly if you use the detection feature in Setup, but flaws in the bios code prevent the bios from actually supporting beyond some size, such as 2.1gb, or 8.4gb .
In some old bioses you can set all the parameters in the cmos manually correctly but the bios doesn't actually support the recognition of drives beyond a certain size, and the bios defaults to that size if the paramaters exceed those of the largest size supported.

In some old bioses, after using the detection feature in Setup and choosing Yes or whatever, the parameters in the Cmos are all correct except for the total size - AND/OR you can set all the parameters in the cmos yourself and they are all correct except for the total size - that's usually only a cosmetic bug and the drive has been detected correctly, and is the proper size in the operating system.
Keep in mind a manufacturer's size is always stated as a decimal size and is larger than the binary size stated in Windows and in most bioses. The total number of sectors is the same.

What operating system were you trying to get the Dos games to work in?

Some old games run according to the cpu speed or the fsb speed, and run way too fast on systems that are much faster than they were designed to run on
E.g. the original version of Tetris runs way too fast even on faster 486s.
There are tweaks you can do to slow down the timing while running the game I've heard of but I haven't tried them.


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Response Number 12
Name: Liandri64
Date: April 3, 2008 at 19:11:49 Pacific
Subject: ATA-4 on an ATA-2 Controller?
Reply: (edit)
Actually the bios will show wrong if the size is more than 2015MB(1MB=1024MB), this BIOS show the binary size.

And the test result in BIOS is, 4096 Cylinder, 16 Heads, 63 Sectors = 0 MB, but it will show right while booting. It will repeat the size in BIOS and it will never reach 2015MB, but during system boot, it supports 8053MB, ATA2/ATA3(FAST/ENHANCED) Hard Disk. ATA4 is certain to be unsupported. (Actually ATA2 and some ATA3 disks are all in PIO format. The disk is usually in PIO4, but what should I do if I use PIO1? Just disable "Fixed Disk PIO Mode 3(4)"?)

The hard disks are completely undetectable by HDD Regenerator and something else... But my old WDAC2850 works fine except its size is so small... I wonder if there are a slave disk for these hard disks below.

At least I hope if I could find a good hard disk in my city, Qingdao, China.

I was considering about these sizes that could work:

Western Digital:
WDAC21600 - 1624MB ATA2 FAST PIO4
WDAC21200 - 1281MB ATA2 FAST PIO4
AC-32100 - 2111MB ATA2 FAST PIO4
AC-32500 - 2559MB ATA2 FAST PIO4
AC-33100 7/96 - 3166MB ATA2 FAST PIO4

Seagate:
SL36450A - 6450MB ATA2 FAST PIO1

Currently I could only find these on the hard disk lists... I hope they'll work.


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Response Number 13
Name: Tubesandwires
Date: April 3, 2008 at 23:37:40 Pacific
Subject: ATA-4 on an ATA-2 Controller?
Reply: (edit)
Most bioses state the binary size. The operating system always states the binary size. If the drive is partitioned and formatted the size in Windows is a bit smaller because space is taken up by the partitioning, formatting, partition table, etc.

It does not matter what mode the mboard can run the drive in - that has NO EFFECT on what drive size the bios detects.
The max mode the drive runs in has NO EFFECT on whether the drive is detected by the bios.
Most of the time the drive does not use it's max speed.

Make sure the bios Setup is set to Auto detect hard drives by the method Auto or LBA.
"Actually the bios will show wrong if the size is more than 2015MB"
Large has an upper limit of about 2.1 (2150mb) gb.
Normal has an upper limit of 528mb.
I have no idea what the max drive size is the bios will detect but it would probably be at least 8.4gb (8601mb)
If that's the case, any of the drives you listed should be detected just fine.

The only things that affect whether the drive is detected is the jumper settings for master, slave, or cable select on the drive, and whether or not the data cable is working properly and is connected the right way.
You don't jumper two drives master or two drives slave on the same data cable.
You don't mix cable select and master or slave on the same data cable. Most old bioses will not detect a single drive on a data cable jumpered as slave, or a single drive jumpered cable select on a data cable.
Etc, etc.
The jumper settings may not be on the drive's label, or they may be confusing or upside down if they are. Look up the jumper settings for the model on the web to make sure you've got that right if it isn't clear.


It sounds like the Maxtor drive is defective. Try connecting it to another mboard. I think you will find it isn't detected properly on another mboard either.


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Response Number 14
Name: Liandri64
Date: April 4, 2008 at 05:28:00 Pacific
Subject: ATA-4 on an ATA-2 Controller?
Reply: (edit)
However, who knows something about the old ACER V30-II BIOS V2.0 or something else... And in that BIOS, words such as LBA never appears... (Looks like the disks are always configured in CHS format or something). In Enhanced IDE Features there are:

Fixed Drive Block Mode
Fixed Drive Size >504MB
Fixed Drive PIO Mode 3(4)
Fixed Drive 32-Bit Access

Is it right that I should disable the PIO Mode 3(4) if I use a fixed disk that is in PIO1 format?

This is the BIOS String:
ACR9AE00-I05-951029-R01-N9

However, I have to make sure the size that the disk could support at maximum, and which type of the disk. ATA-4(UDMA) is certain to be unsupported, but ATA-2 (PIO1/4) and some ATA-3 PIO1 could be supported.

Seagate Medalist Pro (ST36450A) (6450MB, ATA-2 FAST PIO1) could be that largest ATA-2(PIO1/4) disk that I have ever found in the list...


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Response Number 15
Name: Tubesandwires
Date: April 4, 2008 at 09:34:35 Pacific
Subject: ATA-4 on an ATA-2 Controller?
Reply: (edit)
I repeat:

"It sounds like the Maxtor drive is defective. Try connecting it to another mboard. I think you will find it isn't detected properly on another mboard either."

"It does not matter what mode the mboard can run the drive in - that has NO EFFECT on what drive size the bios detects.
The max mode the drive runs in has NO EFFECT on whether the drive is detected by the bios."

......

If you haven't already downloaded it, get the manual for Acer Acros V35 here:

V35-manual_uk.zip

http://www.elhvb.com/mobokive/Archi...

Extract the 3 files in it.
If you have nothing that will open a zip file,
WinZip 7.0 is available here for use in Win 95 and up, or you can get WinZip 6.3 or previous for use in Win 3.1:
http://www.oldversion.com/program.p...

The download is self extracting - you can extract the contents to the default location or anywhere you like.
These old versions are small enough they can be extracted to and be run from a floppy disk if necessary.
You can run the extracted main WinZip program from the floppy without having to install it on the hard drive.

You can view the extracted *.doc files on any computer Win95 and up in the operating system's built in Wordpad program.
You may be able to read them in Win 3.1 as well with the default stuff in Win 3.1, or in Word 6 in Windows or Dos versions.

V35-2.doc is the bios settings information.
That is probably identical or nearly identical to what you see in your bios Setup.
If that's your case, you're right, LBA is not in there.

Fixed Drive Block Mode
Fixed Drive Size >504MB
Fixed Drive PIO Mode
Fixed Drive 32-Bit Access

should all be Enabled

Fixed Drive Size >504MB being Enabled allows drives to be detected that are larger than that. It doesn't say so specifically, but that probably enables LBA (Logical Block Addressing, or similar) drive translation support.

I have a gigabyte mboard with a 1995 AMI bios version that is very similar to yours - same chipset capabilities, probably the same max cpu - 133mhz (the Acer Acros V35 ups that to 166mhz, also common in old pentium mboards a little newer than yours). It definately suppported the recognition of up to 8.4gb drives, and I found a bios update on the gigabyte web site that I installed that increased that to supporting the recognition of up to 32gb drives.
I therefore believe your AMI bios version probably supports the recognition of drives up to at least 8.4gb.

The other 3 things are standard and should always be enabled.


Hard Disk type
- Note that the default drive detection is set to Auto.
- you can use one of the specified drive types if it has the same parameters as the drive you want to install, but often you may not find a type that matches the parameters of the drive you are using exactly, and there may be no suitable parameters for drives beyond a certain size. That's quite normal, even in newer computer bioses .
In that case you can use User or Auto.

Auto assumes the drive is blank of data, or you are going to be wiping data already on the drive and re-partition and format it, and it is going to be used using the maximum parameters, or the drive has already been partitioned and formatted to it's maximum parameters and you're going to leave it as is.
User can be used if the drive has already been partitioned and formatted, to LESS than it's maximum parameters, and you want to use the drive as is.
E.g. a drive with parameters that allow for a 540mb size (1049 - 16 - 63) may not be detected properly and may not boot if parameters for a 528mb drive were used for it (1024 - 16 - 63)

528mb is the manufacturer's stated decimal size; 504 mb is the stated binary size for the same drive - that's the max Normal or CHS mode supports. Some bioses state the size in binary, some state the manufacturer's size. Your bios states the binary size, and operating system always state the binary size.

I have never come across a bios for a Pentium computer and up that has only CHS support, somtimes called Normal mode in the bios Setup. Even some later 486 computers are not limited to that.
The fact that your 853mb drive is detected properly proves your bios isn't limited to just CHS drive translation support


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Response Number 16
Name: Liandri64
Date: April 27, 2008 at 02:38:05 Pacific
Subject: ATA-4 on an ATA-2 Controller?
Reply: (edit)
Maybe you're right...

I got another Maxtor 91021U2 (10.7GB, ATA4, but my computer recognizes it as 8053MB) and formatted 4 2GB FAT16 Partition with Ontrack DM 9.50 (Actually DM could format the whole disk but I'm not going to so I only built the first 8GB), and it worked fine... Maybe this is because of the Ontrack Dynamic Overlay or it is actually a good disk...

Actually I'm going to ask about something else about my old computer's hardware...


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Response Number 17
Name: Tubesandwires
Date: April 27, 2008 at 07:52:14 Pacific
Subject: ATA-4 on an ATA-2 Controller?
Reply: (edit)
It's good to hear you got a drive to work.
Long time no hear from you.
Better late than never.

Obviously your bios has the bug (in the bios code) that limits it to detecting a max ~8gb hard drive. I've already mentioned that in response 6, 11, 13.
"formatted 4 2GB FAT16 Partition with Ontrack DM 9.50 ..."
You could have done the same thing with Win95 itself, it just takes more steps; it's easier to do with Disk Manager.
That's the max Win 95 supports, unless it is one of the later versions, OSR2 or later.
The vast majority of the Win95 CDs sold were older than that.

"(Actually DM could format the whole disk but I'm not going to so I only built the first 8GB), and it worked fine... Maybe this is because of the Ontrack Dynamic Overlay or it is actually a good disk..."

Obviously this drive is fine.
It isn't using a dynamic overlay unless the whole size of the drive is being used.
DM can get around the bios limitation with that, but your older version of Win 95 is still limited to a max 8.4gb drive in any case, so it wouldn't be of any use to use it anyway.
I don't recommend you use a dynamic overlay unless you're sure you would be alert and very careful - you can lose access to the contents of a dynamic overlay's data, or destroy the data, if you do certain things wrong - e.g. you always must insert bootable CDs or floppies ONLY during booting when prompted - booting with a bootable CD or floppy already in a drive can result in disaster, especially if you are installing an operating system.


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Response Number 18
Name: Liandri64
Date: April 28, 2008 at 05:47:13 Pacific
Subject: ATA-4 on an ATA-2 Controller?
Reply: (edit)
By the way, I found a problem.

If I boot from a floppy drive directly the system will not detect my formatted partitions, besides, if I boot from a floppy drive after the overlay is loaded the partitions can be seen.

Maybe if the overlay is overwritten during an MBR overwrite process the data will lost...


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Response Number 19
Name: Tubesandwires
Date: April 28, 2008 at 07:13:14 Pacific
Subject: ATA-4 on an ATA-2 Controller?
Reply: (edit)
In that case, you DID load a dynamic overlay when you prepared the drive with Disk Manager!
Disk Manager alters the default MBR (Master Boot Record) on the hard drive in order to load the dynamic overlay.

As I said above....

"I don't recommend you use a dynamic overlay unless you're sure you would be alert and very careful - you can lose access to the contents of a dynamic overlay's data, or destroy the data, if you do certain things wrong - e.g. you always must insert bootable CDs or floppies ONLY during booting when prompted - booting with a bootable CD or floppy already in a drive can result in disaster, especially if you are installing an operating system."

You CAN use the drive as is if you are SURE you will be always careful about how you use boot disks.
I used a program called Stacker for many years and you had to be careful with boot disks with that too, and I managed fine, but not everyone can deal with that without making mistakes.

You now have to decide whether you want to leave the dynamic overlay there and cope with that, or start over again and prepare the drive with Win 95 itself.

OR you MAY be able to remove the altered MBR using Disk Manager and have the normal MBR situation , BUT you must be very careful you do that properly or you will lose access to the data, and have to start over again anyway. In that case, the mboard bios nd bios Setup MUST recognize the drive as at least 8.x gb!
I did that once with an older version of Disk Manager long ago, when I moved a drive from a computer that had a bios that didn't recognize the size of a hard drive (so I installed the dynamic overlay on the drive) to another computer that had a bios that did recognize the size of the hard drive no problem.
If you are careful, you can try removing the altered MBR / changing it back to a standard one with Disk Manager to see if you have acess to the data - if you don't, if you are careful, you can restore the altered MBR with Disk Manager (Win 95 can't), and have access to the data again. Changing the MBR does not destroy the data on the rest of the drive.
....

If you want to find out whether Win 95 itself recognizes the drive as 8.x gb, you could start Setup by booting with it's CD (if it's bootable - it must be a full version of Win 95 in order to be bootable - you must set the boot order in your bios Setup to boot from a CD drive first).
Once you see whether it does or not (you would have to make 4 2.x partitions) you can quit Setup without harming the data already on the drive if you so choose.
I don't have a bootable Win 95 CD myself - mine is an Upgrade CD, but I do have a Peter Norton Win 95 book I could look at if you need more specific detail about that.



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Response Number 20
Name: Tubesandwires
Date: April 28, 2008 at 07:36:13 Pacific
Subject: ATA-4 on an ATA-2 Controller?
Reply: (edit)
from your other post:

"And who can tell me about the latest video card that is supported by Windows 95 (OSR 2.5)?"

If that's the version you're using, you don't need 4 partitions - it supports an earlier version of FAT32 than Win 98 and up uses, and is capable of making one partition on this drive, up to the max size the mboard bios sees, providing you enable large drive support (> 5xx mb) when you run Setup



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Response Number 21
Name: Tubesandwires
Date: June 5, 2008 at 07:58:46 Pacific
Subject: ATA-4 on an ATA-2 Controller?
Reply: (edit)
Oops - I put a post here by mistake.

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