Tom's Guide | Tom's Hardware | Tom's Games
 |
 |
 |
Hello, I am thinking of replacing my old geforce 4600Ti with a 6600GT 128MB AGP. Will my 2.4Ghz CPU bottleneck the card too much? I am also getting a gig of DDR 533 PC4200 RAM.
I Know the CPU will restrict it a bit but will it be a big improvement over my old card?
"Hello, I am thinking of replacing my old geforce 4600Ti with a 6600GT 128MB AGP. Will my 2.4Ghz CPU bottleneck the card too much?"
Your CPU is being outpaced fairly decently. I would be looking more at a 9600 Pro or XT with that CPU unless you're going to be upgrading the CPU in the near future.
It will still be a good improvement over your old card. However, so would a 9600 Pro or XT, which costs less.
"I am also getting a gig of DDR 533 PC4200 RAM."
Why? I'm assuming you have a "533MHz Bus" P4. That means your CPU is actually running 133MHz "quadpumped". Without overclocking your CPU, if you put that memory in, it will run 133MHz (266DDR), just like your old memory. Therefore, DDR533 memory will do you no good over DDR266 PC2100 memory. If you want to buy memory, I would just get PC3200 to allow for some flexibility for future CPU upgrades. Even then DDR400 won't run DDR400 with yout current CPU.
I hope this is as clear as it can be (probably as clear as mud, but I tried).
Please help survivors of Hurricane Katrina.
www.redcross.org
0 
Depending on your particular P4 2.4Ghz (A.B.C.G.E) your max speed is either @ 400, 500 or 800FSB. If you are getting a Gig of ram, get a pair so you can run them in dual channel mode, the drawback for lack of a better word is that PC4200 is a waste of bandwidth in dual channel configuration, add a little legroom if you tend to overclock a pair of PC3500 or PC3700 would have been OK.
Now to the video card, you should be fine with the upgrade but I'd rather get a plain 6800 over the 6600GT. If you've got a beefy PSU with sufficient voltage and proper amp distribution, you are good to go.
0
thanks for the advice. I checked my motherboard and realised that I can only get PC2700 at best anyway. Should I replace my old ram with 2 512MB boards of PC2700 RAM?
How do I find out if my PSU has sufficient voltage? I didn't even think of that!
0
"either @ 400, 533 or 800FSB"
I think there's a major misconception here about these FSB numbers...
With the "400MHz FSB" P4 CPU's, the path to the memory is running 100MHz bus, using DDR, for an effective 200MHz bus. The memory does NOT run 400MHz. In other words, if you use PC3200 memory with 400MHz bus P4's, your memory is NOT running 400MHz, it's running 200MHz, or PC1800.
"If you are getting a Gig of ram, get a pair so you can run them in dual channel mode, the drawback for lack of a better word is that PC4200 is a waste of bandwidth in dual channel configuration."
No, PC4200 is a waste of bandwidth on ANY P4. If your P4 is running "800MHz FSB", the memory is only running 200MHz using DDR, for an effective 400MHz, aka DDR400 or PC3200. This has absolutely NOTHING to do with dual channel technology. Any DDR memory higher than DDR400, aka PC3200, is only useful if you plan to overclock beyond "800MHz bus".
Not picking on Sabertooth specifically, but people really need to understand that "quadpumped" refers to the FSB of the internal CPU ONLY. It is NOT the speed that your memory is running.
"I checked my motherboard and realised that I can only get PC2700 at best anyway. Should I replace my old ram with 2 512MB boards of PC2700 RAM?"
Your motherboard therefore supports up to the "533MHz FSB" variant P4's. You should be able to use PC3200 memory on the board; you just won't be running at the memory's top capable speed. However, you might as well get PC3200 because you won't generally pay more for it over PC2700 unless you're buying it second hand.
"Now to the video card, you should be fine with the upgrade but I'd rather get a plain 6800 over the 6600GT."
Why? He has a p4 2.4GHz, which won't even keep up with a 6600GT.
Please help survivors of Hurricane Katrina.
www.redcross.org
0
Hold on their bubba-boy! Is my understanding about the P4 bandwidth/RAM throughput ratio incorrect?
Here's how I've always thought the various P4/RAM configurations should be for the system to be "in balance":
800FSB CPU @ 200MHz = 6400MB/s
2 x PC3200 (dual mode) @ 200MHz = 6400MB/s533FSB CPU @ 133MHz = 4266MB/s
2 x PC2100 (dual mode) @ 133MHz = 4266MB/s400FSB CPU @ 100MHz = 3200MB/s
2 x PC1600 (dual mode) @ 100MHz = 3200MB/sASUS A7N8X-X
Athlon XP 1800+
8.5 x 200MHz
1024MB PC3200 2.5-3-3-7
Asus A9550GE/TD 128MB
WinME/WinXP Pro SP1
0
You are correct...to a degree because you're believing Intel's quadpumping and dual channel deliver their theoretical limits. You already know it can't be true as you're stating or else the p4's would have blown the doors off the Athlon XP in performance, yet interestingly they didn't. ;-)
However, you're also restating what I said.
Quadpumping and dual channel (and DDR for that matter) are technologies to utilize the available bandwidth of memory more efficiently. It is not cost effective to manufacture exceptionally high clock speed capable memory; in an effort to get more performance without increasing clock speed, these technologies were developed.
Dual channel is simply having two memory controllers instead of one which access two banks of memory independently, thereby theoretically doubling memory bandwidth. Nowhere in the dual channel specs does it say the memory chips themselves are running faster.
Quadpumping is increasing the effective bandwidth the CPU communicates with all components. Again, memory is not running faster in quadpumping.
In this guy's case, it appears he has a 533MHz bus P4. Therefore, his memory is running 133MHz. Through DDR technologies, he gets theoretically 2x the bandwidth there, so now his memory is LIKE running 266MHz SDRAM if it existed. With dual channel, the CPU can then access two sets of memory sticks independently, theoretically adding another 2x the bandwidth. So now it's like running 533MHz SDRAM with one memory controller. Well, if the CPU was only running 133MHz with DDR technology (now 266), how on earth is it going to take advantage of all that extra memory bandwidth? Needs "quadpumping" to get the same theoretical bandwidth. Notice that never in this we said the memory was ever running 533MHz. It's still running 133MHz (266DDR).
Notice I kept saying "theoretical"? Well, as with anything, you don't get something for nothing. Remember when DDR first came out? Why didn't system performance double when it was used for the first time? Why didn't memory I/O double?! It's not really 2x, although it is definitely a step up.
Dual channel now has two independent memory controllers which must sync to work as a team. That means both have unused cycles to make sure the operation is done correctly. That causes a massive slow down from the theoretical number it was touted to achieve. If dual channel were that good, why are for example NForce2 400 chipset boards nearly equaling Nforce2 Ultra 400's in dual channel? (This is also similar to why RAID0 arrays aren't 2x as fast as a single drive in disk throughput.)
Please help survivors of Hurricane Katrina.
www.redcross.org
0
Hey hero,
I read you piece and I dont see anything different in what we've always said here viz bandwidth, CPU clock speed and FSB.
I chose to be concise for a reason, which is not to confuse the author of the thread, too much jargon can sometimes be unhelpful and that is not the desired intent. I hope you catch my drift.
0
"If you are getting a Gig of ram, get a pair so you can run them in dual channel mode, the drawback for lack of a better word is that PC4200 is a waste of bandwidth *in dual channel configuration*."
Are you implying that if let's say his motherboard didn't support dual channel, or if he were to buy only a single stick, buying PC4200 should be what he buys? You're stating PC4200 is a waste if you have dual channel, so therefore in single channel it would be different. It's a waste regardless.
Single channel or dual channel, the memory will be running at a frequency of 1/2 (using DDR) the P4's quadpumped FSB number, and THAT is what determines what speed of memory you need, not whether or not you're gonna run dual channel. You can't stick PC4200 in his motherboard, run the CPU at 533MHz FSB, and run the memory at 533DDR unless your motherboard supports async frequencies, which most intel motherboards don't, and that runs slower than syncing them anyway.
"I chose to be concise for a reason, which is not to confuse the author of the thread, too much jargon can sometimes be unhelpful and that is not the desired intent."
Concise is good, but that wasn't what I was faulting you for. You made a false implication. Jam asked for an explanation, so I explained it. Dual channel or single, he doesn't need PC4200, or PC3700 or PC3500 for that matter. Even PC3200 gives him the headroom to overclock.
Please help survivors of Hurricane Katrina.
www.redcross.org
0
"Are you implying that if let's say his motherboard didn't support dual channel, or if he were to buy only a single stick, buying PC4200 should be what he buys?"
OK, assuming he indeed has the P4 2.4Ghz (A/B) and bus speed 133MHz (quadpump aside), the most appropriate ram would be DDR 266 - PC2100 if he is running in single channel mode, one thing you overlooked is that my original response was with a vague assumption of his CPU's bus speed.
Thinking along the lines of single channel was a moot point to me from the git go since he has a P4 and my calculated guess then was on him having a 533 or 800FSB.
0
Okay, thats more info than I expected about ram! I guess I will get the PC3200 anyway. My main question is still: Should I get a 6600GT (or a non GT) or will I get exactly the same performance from a cheaper card?
thanks for all the response!
0
"I checked my motherboard and realised that I can only get PC2700 at best anyway".
Then why bent on getting DDR400 ram ?
Does your mobo not support dual channel matrix ?"My main question is still: Should I get a 6600GT (or a non GT) or will I get exactly the same performance from a cheaper card?"
Well hands down the 6600GT is a better card, design-wise; its got a faster clock (500Mhz) as opposed to the 300Mhz for the plain 6600, more shaders and vertical pipelines than the 6600, and almost doubles up on the effective memory clock speed of the 6600. Now performance wise on your rig will you see at least a (30% price difference) boost while gaming ?, perhaps not since no two systems are identically configured.
0
"OK, assuming he indeed has the P4 2.4Ghz (A/B) and bus speed 133MHz (quadpump aside), the most appropriate ram would be DDR 266 - PC2100 *if he is running in single channel mode*..."
Then if you are now saying single channel or dual channel, he needs PC2100 or higher assuming his P4 is 533MHz bus, we are in agreement. Again, dual channel or single channel is irrelevant aside from determining how many sticks he should buy.
"Should I get a 6600GT (or a non GT) or will I get exactly the same performance from a cheaper card?"
Honestly, a 6600GT will still not signficantly perform better than a 6600 in your machine. You just don't have the CPU power to feed the video card. If you plan on upgrading your processor soon, by all means go for the 6600GT. You definitely have no reason to go higher than a 6600GT with that processor. Any CPU you can put on that motherboard will not be able to drive even a 6600GT to the fullest, so going to a 6800 is absolutely a waste of money. If you were planning to replace the motherboard soon, then you really shouldn't be buying any AGP card, instead looking to go PCI-e and replace your mobo, CPU, fan, RAM, and video card all at once.
Also, before purchasing a 6600GT (maybe also the plain 6600, I'm not familiar with their power requirements), you should check your PSU before doing so. It requires significantly more juice. I would also be prepared to possibly have to replace the power supply. If that's not acceptable, you should be looking at a Radeon 9600 Pro or XT, which don't require nearly as much juice.
Please help survivors of Hurricane Katrina.
www.redcross.org
0
"more shaders and vertical pipelines than the 6600"
Negative. They're the same.
http://www.digit-life.com/articles2/gffx/nv43-p01.html#p1
They're basically the same card, just the RAM and the GPU are clocked differently. And with a p4 2.4GHz 533MHz bus CPU, you won't see much if any performance difference.
Please help survivors of Hurricane Katrina.
www.redcross.org
0
pardon me there, but also 6600GT uses GDDR3 memory and plain 6600 uses DDR1, however judging from the above responses and the look of things you are better holding off and upgrading the system altogether or get a lesser and cheaper card. I just recently upgraded to the 64bit platform and I made a profit on the upgrade (ebay).
0
I just realised that my AGP slot doesn't support x8 AGP! That kind of limits the choice in graphics cards...
What is the most appropriate card to get? I won't be upgrading the CPU (will probably just get a new PC in a year or so).
I currently have a GeForce 4600 Ti and tried using my friends 5500 OC and got an improvement with Half-life 2 but slightly worse for San Andreas.
I just want a card that will let me play half-life 2, San Andreas and maybe even doom 3. I don't care about AA or resolutions over 1024 x 768
thanks for all the help
0
Don't worry about the 4x AGP slot. 8X cards will run fine in a 4X slot, and you won't see much of a performance hit from that.
If HL2 is the most important game for you, you're probably better off with an ATI card. I would look at a Radeon 9600XT, 9800 Pro, or X700.
These look like a good fits...
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16814102510
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16814131307
Please help survivors of Hurricane Katrina.
www.redcross.org
0
Those cards look good and affordable. I just want to be sure of a good improvement over the 4600 ti.
It seems that the 4600 seems to be better than most 5xxx Geforce cards. I don't want to splash out on a new card without much improvement.
0
It'll be night and day, my friend. :-)
Help survivors of Hurricane Katrina. Please donate to the American Red Cross.
www.redcross.org
0
Okay, I have decided on a Geforce 6800 LE, it is only £70 and I will only be using 1024x768 resolutions due to my small LCD display and I heard that the 6800LE is great at those resolutions.
I will also get a HIPER 425W PSU (my current PSU is only 230W).
Hopefully my last RAM question:
I have 512MB of PC2100 DDR in my PC,
should I:a: Get a stick of PC3200 and add it to what I have?
or...
b: Chuck my old RAM away and get 2 512MB sticks of PC3200 RAM?
Is the extra money for option b worth it? or will I see no noticable improvement?
thanks for the help, this place is a lifesaver!
0
I think I mean PC2700 RAM not 3200 actually...
My motherboard only takes 333Mhz memory (Gigabyte 8PE667 Ultra)
0
Stick with Antec, Thermaltake, Coolermaster, Enermax, PC Power and Cooling, Vantec, there are probably othe good brands I'm not thinking of off the top of my head. I've never heard of Hiper in my life, and I suspect that's ultra generic and ultra crappy.
In regards to RAM, adding to what you have could cause your system to be unstable unless you can find exact matching sticks, especially if you have a dual channel motherboard. Personally, I wouldn't take the chance, and I'd just get matched pair kit (2x512M).
As for the 8800LE, it looks like a pretty good card, roughly the equivalent of a 9800XT. I don't know what £70 is in American dollars, so I'm not sure if that's good or bad for the money though. However, it does perform at the level close to what your CPU will perform. I will say that an ATI card at the performance level of a 9800 Pro or XT will beat that card in Half Life 2 though, so keep that in mind. ATI cards run significantly better in that specific game.
Please help survivors of Hurricane Katrina.
www.redcross.org
0
Hi Guy,
Well, here's my suggestion. Do NOT buy a new Graphics card! You're currently using a 32-bit system, right? Didn't you hear? 32-bit systems are on their way out now! And once Gaming comanies start to release new 64-bit games (which will never run on any 32-bit system), you can either drool on something you cannot run, or start buying components for a new, 64-bit system! As for your Ti-4600...I bet it currently is running every single game you've tried. I used to use an 8x AGP MSI Ti-4200, and it was running Doom-3 and Farcry with no problems. I can tell you, the DirectX 9.0 Compatibility of the new cards doesn't give you all that extra quality you might expect either. So...get a new graphic's card, but one which is compatible with PCI-Express (to go on that new motherboard you save for next). For the time being, go to www.guru3d.com, and download Hardpage SE...a great tweak program for the Geforce 4 Cards! But, don't waste your money on a system which is fast becoming Gaming Obsolete! Think Guy!
I hope this helps you decide...
Sincerely,
Jay T.
0
"32-bit systems are on their way out now!"
That's why Windows XP 32-bit runs better than the 64-bit version for gaming. The truth is today is the beginning of the end for 32-bit, but that conversion will occur over the span of the next 3 years. Right now, you don't need 64-bit, nor should you run it for optimum performance.
"As for your Ti-4600...I bet it currently is running every single game you've tried."
Considering the Ti-4600 is not a fully DX9 compliant video card, it won't run many games today as well as even a sub $100 graphics card. Will it run most games out there? Yes. Will it run all games at acceptable performance and image quality levels? That's a subjective question, but for many people that answer is no. If I wanted to play Half Life 2, I'd definitely replace a Ti4600 in a heartbeat.
"the DirectX 9.0 Compatibility of the new cards doesn't give you all that extra quality you might expect either."
You haven't played HL2 on a DX9 compliant card then...Or Lock On Modern Air Combat...or the FEAR demo...or Battlefield 2...
"So...get a new graphic's card, but one which is compatible with PCI-Express (to go on that new motherboard you save for next)."
Are you suggesting he buy a PCI-e card now? If so, how on earth do you fit that in an AGP port?!
"don't waste your money on a system which is fast becoming Gaming Obsolete!"
Every system in existence is becoming "Gaming Obsolete" at this very second. He's talking about spending $130 on his current system, which should allow him to continue gaming with his current system for the next year or two. Sounds like money well spent to me...
"It happens."
0
in light of this discussion if i have a k7n2 msi delta2 platinum mobo,a gig of pc 3200 xms ram,a 480 watt antec neo power psu,athlon xp 3200+ cpu,am i gonna have probs trying to run an xfx 6800gt 256 mb card??
The higher da mountain,the cooler da breeze!!
0  |
 freeze timer on gta v c d...
|
Counterstrike Source Clan
|
This post is quite old and has been locked from receiving new replies. Please create a new posting instead.
| Ads by Google |
