No! In computers, it is important to use correct terminology. "Lag" has nothing to do with a graphics card! "Lag" is a delay, experienced in networked communications know as PING or latency.
Your question should read, "Can a poor graphics card cause low Frames Per Second (FPS)"
"FPS or Frame rate, is the measurement of how quickly a device (Video-Card or Monitor) produces consecutive images called frames" --wikipedia
Answer: definitely....
Is there a rehab center for Coffee drinkers? I drink six to eight cups per hour.
Chill out a little bit. Not everyone knows the correct terminology for computers (which is completely understandable considering the shear breadth of it all - the how it constantly changes). I hear people say "lag" as in reference to low FPS quite often, but I dont attack them for it :)
Sorry, the exclamation mark after my sentances was a little harsh...
Your right though, Lag and low frame rates produce the exact same effects in games, however, it is important to clairify between the two when asking a qeustion. ;-)
Is there a rehab center for Coffee drinkers? I drink six to eight cups per hour.
Being as how the effects of each result from two completely different sources, it is very important to differentiate between the two (x2). They cant be interchangeable, had he posted his question in the Networking Section of this forum, but swapped the word "Graphics-card" with "Nic-Card" and "lag" with "FPS", the network gurus would have answered the same as I, NO.
"Can a poor Nic-card cause low FPS?" They are not interchangeable words, what you say and what you mean are not one in the same.
The definition of both are not even remotely related. Had the original poster specified in the first place there would be no reason to speculate. Perhaps, he thought there was infact a correlation, that the preformance of his video-card was causing high ping latency in games.
I rest my case...
"Never underestimate stupid people in large numbers" --Anonymous
Keyword "If", which is my whole point. If the OP *is* differentiating between those two in his question, then *my answer* is correct. Again, Had he specified in the first place there would be no reason to speculate.
"Never underestimate stupid people in large numbers" --Anonymous
The dude didn't know to differentiate. That's why he's posting here asking about it. Not a lot of question about "if"...
Also, technically speaking, a GPU could cause network lag. Since GPU's offload processing information from the CPU, without a good enough GPU, the CPU could be overwhelmed trying to process information for the game, causing an increase in time for packets to be processed, resulting in, survey says, lag!
So your idea of network lag not being related in any way, shape, or form to the video card is actually wrong. It can be related.
Not sure why you're so intent on making this point...
"How many squirrels had to die to make you look fly?!"
Granted the word "lag" in network computing has a technically different meaning, it is utterly myopic to expect the word to be used exclusively in that sense within or without computing circles. Basically "lag" comes either as a verb or noun & it pre-dates network communications and even computing in its entirety.
Regardless of network computing, it is very obvious (at least to me) that the OP had deployed the word as a transitive verb in titling his thread, and I see nothing wrong with that manner of use.
If Galileox2 is looking at the word and implys the manner of its use as a noun, then that is not the OP's problem.
All I'm attempting to prove, is that there are two definitive answers for his question. Which relies entirely on the perception of your interpretation of his quesion. I, nor you, know the exact meaning of his inquire. I just decided to answer one probability over the other.
"The explanation requiring the fewest assumptions is most likely to be correct." -- Occam's razor
Besides, whats a friendly debate to livin these forums up? ;-)
"Never underestimate stupid people in large numbers" --Anonymous
"All I'm attempting to prove, is that there are two definitive answers for his question."
There simply isn't. His question is:
"Can a poor graphics card cause lag?"
The answer is yes.
The question was not, "Is a video card the most probable cause of lag?"
"The explanation requiring the fewest assumptions is most likely to be correct." -- Occam's razor
Without any assumptions at all, the answer to the question is yes. Otherwise, about what he meant, you assumed one thing, others are assuming he meant the other. Each one assumption. So you'd be no more correct than they are.
Care to keep debating? :-)
"How many squirrels had to die to make you look fly?!"
As stated before, his inquire is relative to your perception. Not an absolute question, thus can be answered in two distinctly separate ways.
Lets see, following Occam's razor, right off the bat how many assumptions I can detect from the "Pro-Yes" person point of view.
#1) The fact that he posted in a gaming forum leads one to assume he is refering to Low Frame Rates.
#2) The fact that he reinforces that assumption by mentioning a "graphics card", which implies that he *must have meant* FPS, but instead said "lag".
#3) The fact that the adjective "poor" is used, indicates that he *must mean* low FPS.
#4) Assuming that some people use the word "Lag" interchangeably with FPS, *must mean* he is aswell.
Then yes, after those four assumptions, one will conclude he indeed means Lag as how fast a poor graphics card can produce frames.
Now, here is my thesis. One only has to define two word in his sentence. First off, "LAG" knowing its orgin as A term used to describe a delay in packets over a network, way before gamers started to use it as a slang word for FPS. Gamers then started using the word "lag", only after they discoverd it while playing online. Being how simular the two are, they said Lag, instead of FPS.
The other word that needs defining is "graphics card", with out getting too technical, a video card is a device that can produces consecutive images in a given time frame.
Through simple analysis of context clues is how I reached my answer, I made not one assumtion. I cannot be held responsible if the OP says one thing, but means another.
Care to keep debating? :-)
"Never underestimate stupid people in large numbers" --Anonymous
Without any assumptions made, the answer is yes, it can.
"Inadequate computer processing power Even on a fast connection, a slow computer may have a difficult time to process all the data being sent and received while other applications are running"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lag
Logically, since GPU's do offload graphics calculations from the CPU, some more than others, then different graphics cards can result in differing amounts of lag since they put varying degrees of strain on the CPU. For example, a video card that does not support D3D hardware rendering will put a greater strain on the CPU than one that does by a long shot. Video cards that support Transforming and Lighting put less of a strain on the CPU than those that don't. AGP and PCI-e graphics cards put less of a strain on the CPU than PCI. Video cards with more video RAM require less memory swapping with system memory, thereby causing less of a strain to the CPU.
If you make no assumptions, and take his question as it is, the answer is yes, graphics cards can and do effect lag. Yes, other factors cause lag, but he didn't ask about those.
So...sorry, you're wrong. :-P
"How many squirrels had to die to make you look fly?!"
"If you make no assumptions, and take his question as it is, the answer is yes, graphics cards can and do effect lag. Yes, other factors cause lag, but he didn't ask about those."
There is no argument here at all and we may be overly complicating this. once again, the OP had used the word lag as a TRANSITIVE VERB as in straggle, slow paced (FPS), poorly performing, maybe even choppy and NOT A darn NOUN as the case may be with network LAG issues.
Interesting how this "lag" thread now segways into stuff ;-)
Hero,
Your response from above actually got me thinking again about both possible interpretations of "lag" as used by the OP, and the term now appears to be intransitive as opposed to transitive from my earlier response. Eitherway, it couldn't have been used as a noun in the OPs context.
*1. The act, process, or condition of lagging.* 2. One that lags. *3. A condition of slowness or retardation.* 4. 1. The extent or duration of lagging: “He wondered darkly at how great a lag there was between his thinking and his actions” (Thomas Wolfe). 2. An interval between events or phenomena considered together.
So sorry again, you're wrong, too. :-)
"How many squirrels had to die to make you look fly?!"
"1. to fail to maintain a desired pace or to keep up; fall or stay behind: After five minutes of hard running, some of them began to lag.
2. to move or develop slowly, as toward a goal or objective, or in relation to an associated factor (often fol. by behind): to lag behind in production.
3. to delay or fail in reaching full development: The factory lags regularly in making its quota.
4. to hang back; linger; delay: The old friends lagged because they wanted to talk some more.
5. to decrease, wane, or flag gradually, as in intensity: Interest lagged as the meeting went on".
A "poor graphics card" will not and cannot in any way, effect how fast or how slow one recieves or gives packets of information in a network based enviroment. If that were the case then my kicthen computer would not be able to surf the net at all. To test this fact I preformed the old Ping www.website.com in the command promt, and what do you know same results.
Who's up for some coffee, so we can discuss politics and religion. ;-)
"Never underestimate stupid people in large numbers" --Anonymous
"Verbs are a necessary component of all sentences. Verbs have two important functions: Some verbs put static objects into motion while other verbs help to clarify static objects in meaningful ways."
So...
"Can a poor graphics card cause lag?"
"Cause" is the verb. It is clarifying its object "lag" in a meaningful way.
"Nouns can function as subjects, objects, and complements."
"A "poor graphics card" will not and cannot in any way, effect how fast or how slow one recieves or gives packets of information in a network based enviroment."
Take say a p3 500. Play the original Half Life in software rendering mode vs. hardware rendering (simulating video cards that can and cannot render in D3D or OpenGL). Measure your pings. Guarantee you your pings will be lower in OpenGL or D3D modes.
Simple anwser is, because your now rendering in software mode, that excludes the graphics card all together, completly bypassing it. This is how network data is proccessed anyway, irregardless of the speed of a video card. The graphics-card is not part of the cycle of handling in-put/out-put singles of a computer's communication device.
I guess you shot yourself in the foot with that one. How about that coffee? ;-)
"Never underestimate stupid people in large numbers" --Anonymous
"Simple anwser is, because your now rendering in software mode, that excludes the graphics card all together, completly bypassing it. This is how network data is proccessed anyway, irregardless of the speed of a video card."
Dude, CPU time is a finite resource per second. DUH! If your CPU is maxed, it cannot process additional data in real time, including network traffic. What does that spell? Survey says... LAG!
Why do you think malware causes lag? Besides using up bandwidth, it also uses up system resources. This is also why for example you can't watch a DVD and play a game at the same time unless you have SMP or dual core.
Run perpetual pings on a server. Then run something like Prime 95 that maxes your CPU out. Watch what your pings do!
It doesn't matter what uses up the CPU resources. In this case, if two different cards on the same machine caused different loads on the CPU (one higher because it doesn't offload graphics computations, while the other one does, leaving the CPU to process other tasks such as networking), the machine will not process network traffic as fast if the video card doesn't support OpenGL or Direct3D. That IS lag! The only variable would be the video card; therefore, in this scenario, it is the root cause of the lag.
So no, didn't shoot myself in the foot.
Sorry, you're wrong. Video cards *can* cause lag. ;-)
I admit defeat. I'm not going to be thick-headed about it. Obviously, your knowledge and experience proved to give the correct anwser. My logic failed me on this one... ;-)
Congratulations, and thanks for the enlightenment.
Case now closed. :-P
"Never underestimate stupid people in large numbers" --Anonymous
If you imply "lag" as a noun, then you are ascribing to lag being a thing, and for it to be a thing it has to be used in the network sense and that is not what the OP is trying convey - which BTW start this ;-)
He is simply asking if a poor GPU can make his gaming sloooooooow down.
1. The act, process, or condition of lagging. 3. A condition of slowness or retardation.
Another simple exercise.
Assuming "lag" is a verb in the question (it isn't), what would "cause" be?
Finally, for the grand finale, what will end this once and for all...
Let's also try replacing lag with a verb whose noun form isn't the same as its verb form in his question, shall we? Let's try "electrocute (v) vs. electrocution (n)".
"You were a worthy opponent. One down, one to go :-).............and what am I - chopped liver?
We are ideed getting close, grammatical construction is one thing interpretation is another.
The OP may have used the "noun" form of lag in his thread but ultimately he expects us to interprete it as a verb as in some continous or recurring action and not a thing per se.
The irony of this back & forth argument is that it now conceeds victory to Galileox2, because now what the OP wrote can not be interpreted as is because in this case it is the video card that is lagging or at least that's what I deduced from his post - Can a poor graphics card lag?
If you go "with Can a poor graphics card cause lag?" then you'd have to explain what that lag as a thing entails.
Am I correct to not accepting lag as a verb? here's what my boss always say - I may never be early, but I'm never late :-)
LOL, the debate isn't over, so I don't know yet. :-)
"The OP may have used the "noun" form of lag in his thread..."
Thank you for admitting you were wrong. LOL...
"...ultimately he expects us to interprete it as a verb as in some continous or recurring action and not a thing per se."
He's referring to the state or condition of lag. The meaning doesn't change.
"The irony of this back & forth argument is that it now conceeds victory to Galileox2, because now what the OP wrote can not be interpreted as is because in this case it is the video card that is lagging..."
He is simply asking if a poor video card can cause lag. It's that simple. And the answer is yes, it can.
"If you go "with Can a poor graphics card cause lag?" then you'd have to explain what that lag as a thing entails."
"But it is the graphics card that is lagging NOT that it is causing a LAG, that is the basis of my argument all along."
My argument is that a graphics card that doesn't offload enough calculations from the CPU in turn can cause a CPU to be maxed out, resulting in lag since the CPU cannot process network traffic in a timely manner. Therefore, such a graphics card can cause lag.
You could have something similar with a bad driver for the card causing unnecessary strain on the CPU that conceivably max the CPU out, thereby causing a delay in network traffic processing, resulting in lag.
I think we are still on either end of the spectrum here, the lag that I'm talking about has nothing to do with network packets or communication traffic at all.
I am talking in terms of a CPU burden - which is what I assumed the OP was reffering to. More or less the type of lag that you'll see on a gaming system with no network adapter or interface card, just a sh!tty graphics card.
His question might add valuable insight to this debate. That is if he intends to play online in multiplayer mode, (which BF2 is mainly popular for). With that setup Trey, be prepared to expect low Frame rates and high ping (LAG) at any setting above 800x600 with medium presets.
"Never underestimate stupid people in large numbers" --Anonymous
"I think we are still on either end of the spectrum here, the lag that I'm talking about has nothing to do with network packets or communication traffic at all."
Not really. I fully accept he could mean lag that could or could not be network dependent. Even if he meant the other, lag is still a noun in his question, not a verb. It is still an object of the verb "cause". Stop trying to change what you're saying! :-)
I haven't changed anything, the lag that I've consistently been talking about had nuthin' to do with network packets - go over my prior responses.
When the OP asked "Can a poor graphics card cause lag?"
What I heard was "Hey guys my gameplay isn't as fluid, are my games buggy or is my sh!tty card choking from those game's demand?"..................you betcha!
Altough I have already accepted the fact that a video-card can "hypothetically" be the factor of lag given the right circumstances. However, given todays modren CPUs (at max 2 years old) and chipsets, the amount of burdon generated by processing packets of network info is marginal at best. The resources needed by a CPU to send and recieve that info is practically a walk in the park for it. The System Idle Process consumes more CPU usage then processing packets.
With a system like Trey_0992s', the only *lagg that he will be experiencing is when he runs 3dMark06, and not likly to cause network lag (ping) in BF2. That is, *if he keeps the game at my recommended settings.
"Never underestimate stupid people in large numbers" --Anonymous
In respect to network traffic causing load on the CPU, that's not as important as other processes causing high CPU utilization.
However, it should be noted that far more resources are consumed by processing network traffic than you apparently believe.
CPU utilization can be reduced by as much as 10% by using jumbo frames in a gigabit backbones. This obviously won't help in gaming since the internet connection is running far slower than gigabit.
Regardless of what causes high CPU utilization, once the CPU is slammed, it will negatively impact network performance on the machine.
As I stated before, I would check other things first before considering the graphics card as the root cause of lag. Still possible though to cause it...
"How many squirrels had to die to make you look fly?!"
"it should be noted that far more resources are consumed by processing network traffic than you apparently believe."
--I'll take your word for it, although computing and directing network traffic for a Modern system should not be as much sweat off its back as you make it appear.
"I would check other things first before considering the graphics card as the root cause of lag"
--I concure, but still, i'm giving a specific, best case scenario, where the only variable is a poor preforming card such as Trey_0992's 6100. His system will utilize resources for dealing with network traffic very efficiently, without significantly impacting his in game latency.
"Never underestimate stupid people in large numbers" --Anonymous
The answer without having to use 50 responses is YES. If you are playing an online game the problem might be with your connection or it could be a problem with both conection and graphics card my suggestion is to play this game offline and if you still experience "lag" then you are closer to the answer you require :D
Peace, love and harmony :P
Its not how big it is , its what you do with it that counts :P
Consider it as a simple thought experiment. We discuss a certain topic while exploring the whys, hows, and the what-ifs scenarioes.
"The idea of explaining things through a dialogue goes back to Socrates of ancient Greece. Its just free-rangeing conversation. (In a forum it brings up questions that a reader might want to ask) Organizing the what-ifs into a bunch of interrelated categoies." --Paraphrased from the book, "What If You Could Unscramble an Egg"
"Never underestimate stupid people in large numbers" --Anonymous
"-I'll take your word for it, although computing and directing network traffic for a Modern system should not be as much sweat off its back as you make it appear."
Do you know what Denial of Service attack is? Now it's mainly just soaking up bandwidth because security appliances and OS's have built in prevention from the old ways, but it used to be simply bombarding servers with SYN packets to overload the CPU. Soaking the bandwidth at that time was pointless, not because CPU's were slower, but because it was relatively easy to crash a server in this manner due to weaknesses in code since the OS lacked additional code to recognize this attack and shut it down. It wouldn't have mattered if you had a CPU 1000x faster, without specific counterprotection code in place, the server would have still crashed; it just would have taken a little longer.
A TCP/IP stack is complex, complicated, and system intensive far beyond what your perception is. If it wasn't that much of a load, why is Microsoft recoding the entire TCP/IP stack from the ground up for Vista instead of using at this point the mature and far more secure TCP/IP stack of XP? Because it needs to be more efficient than what XP's is.
BTW, I'm a Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer (both 2000 and 2003). Is it showing yet? :-)
"His system will utilize resources for dealing with network traffic very efficiently, without significantly impacting his in game latency."
You are most likely correct, but you cannot know that for sure.
"The answer without having to use 50 responses is YES."
We established that a long time ago. This is just a friendly discussion.
"How many squirrels had to die to make you look fly?!"
Ah Yes,that makes perfect sense and you have made that very clear, but have not answered my rhetorical question yett. In layman's terms, how much at any given point in time, can a Massively Multiplayer Online Game like BF2 tax the system for directing traffic (I use the word *directing* loosly cause that includes all network related jargon) with a system like Trey_0992s'?
In Response Number 42, he stats that he has a 6100 card paired with a 3700+ CPU, (i'll give him the the benefit of the doubt, and say he has a Gb of ram) givin the best case scenario, where the only variable is a poor preforming card, how much at any given point in time, can a MMOG like BF2 tax his system? I predict its marginal at best and not likly to cause how ping (Lag)in BF2.
No more dancing around the subject...lol
"Never underestimate stupid people in large numbers" --Anonymous
As I've stated before, other factors are more likely to cause lag. But to say the graphics card can't cause lag is incorrect. Keep that in mind...
"In layman's terms, how much at any given point in time, can a Massively Multiplayer Online Game like BF2 tax the system for directing traffic..."
It depends upon a lot of variables. When we're talking about causing lag specifically, we know that lag increases when the CPU approaches or meets 100% utilization. Again, it doesn't matter what causes the high CPU utilization, whether it be the game, TCP/IP stack, spyware/adware, a virus, a bad driver, inadequate hardware, etc. Is it likely? I'll say not as likely as other things I would check first. But it is possible, and has happened!
"he stats that he has a 6100 card paired with a 3700+ CPU, (i'll give him the the benefit of the doubt, and say he has a Gb of ram) givin the best case scenario, where the only variable is a poor preforming card, how much at any given point in time, can a MMOG like BF2 tax his system?"
The case of the 6100 is a good one to illustrate. If he's using the onboard video card, that will utilize more system resources than a normal video card. I would predict his network lag will be slightly higher in a game like BF2, although probably not significant. If he were complaining of high network lag, I would suggest getting a better gfx card to help, but I wouldn't guess that to be the primary cause.
Remember, this thread started with the simple question of can a poor graphics card cause lag. The answer is yes.
"How many squirrels had to die to make you look fly?!"
