Hi

My current system is:
ABit NF7 V2.0 M/B
AMD Athlon XP 2500+
512MB DDR 400 RAM
9800 Pro graphics card
120GB HDD
80GB HDD
DVD-RW Drive
430W Antec True Power PSU

I would like to improve my gaming experience. At the moment it is pretty good! I get around 3800 3D mark 2003 marks - but I would like more. What would be the best upgrade? Either:
Another 512MB RAM ( and would this improve my system noticably as well)
A newer graphics card - and if so which one at a reasonable price?
or a new CPU such as Athlon 3200+?

Thanks

Josh

There's a decent chance you could overclock your 2500 to 3200 speeds. You might need a better heatsink/fan, and maybe some case fans. For example, a Thermaltake Volcano 12 runs about $30 these days. Pick up some Arctic Silver, and read up some on overclocking, and you could most likely clock it at 2.2GHz (200MHz bus x 11).

I don't see upgrading your CPU to an XP 3200 as worthwhile for the cost. That's $180, and you're not gonna see nearly the difference you may think. If you want a faster CPU and don't want to overclock, I would suggest changing the motherboard, CPU, and fan and go Athlon 64. That however might be out of your price range.

Changing the video card with your current CPU wouldn't do a whole lot of good, either.

RAM would help considerably for the latest games. Half Life 2 level times and overall stuttering is greatly reduced if you have a gig of RAM.

I'd vote RAM first, then mobo, CPU, Fan next (unless you want to try overclocking), and lastly a video card.

Before you buy the RAM, make sure you only have one stick of 512M, and get a stick that matches it exactly. If you have 2x256M sticks, better to buy a matched pair of 512M. Mushkin CAS 2.5 2x512M kit runs about $140 these days, and it's high quality.

MCSE, MCSA Messaging, baby!

Thanks very much for your reply heropsycho - that was really useful information. I might buy some more RAM soon then, as I guess it would improve the performace of the whole computer? I currently have a 512MB stick of Crucial RAM, so I will probs just get another one of those.

If you are looking to improve your "gaming experience" then i disagree with a ram upgrade. hero is right when he says that loading times will decrease for todays games but it wont be that much. If you were going from 256MB to 512MB there would be a huge difference in load times but going from 512 to 1 gig wont be that big, trust me ive been there done that.

If you want to improve your "gaming experience" such as FPS and higher quality settings then the only way to go is a better video card. Hero doesnt reccomend this because he thinks your current CPU will bottle neck a better video card. I on the other hand do not believe it will. Just look at my PC specs and 3D mark 03 score below and you will see what i mean. Granted i am overclocking quite a bit but i still dont think your cpu will be shutout if a better video card is installed. If you were to buy an nvidia 6800 GT and oc it to ultra specs im sure your 3D mark score would jump to the 9000 range if not more. Heck thats almost triple your current score, hows that for improving "gaming experience?". You also said you only wanted to spend a reasonable amount of money, but that can be a very wide range for many people.
How does 272$ strike you for resonable? If that interests you then check out the link i pasted at the bottom of the page.

MY PC Specs.

Abit Nf7-s Version 2.0 With Merlin Mod BIOS
AMD 2600 Moblie @ 2.585 GHZ. and 430 FSB
Zalman Cnps-7000 All Copper CPU Fan
OCZ Platinum Edition Dual Channel PC 3500 2x512
Western Digital 74GB 10000 RPM SATA HDD - P1=windows - P2 =Games
Western Digital 200GB 7200 RPM SATA HDD - P1=Page File - P2=File Storage
OCZ 520 Watt PSU 33A/+12v - 3 Adjustable power rails
BFG 6800 Ultra OC @ 440 Mhz. core and 1.2 Ghz. Mem.
3D mark 2003 = 12124
Creative Labs Sound Blaster Live Platinum
Creative Labs 16X DVD-Rom
MSI 52x24x52 CDRW
Kenwood 72x CD-Rom
1 80MM Case Fan/Front Bottom
1 80MM Case Fan/Rear Top
All This in a server tower case from MIN - MAW
19 Inch CRT Monitor From Hansol

http://www.allstarshop.com/shop/simprod.asp?pid=9632&ad=pwatch

Have the lambs stopped crying Clarice?

Great stuff there CB. I am thinking of getting a new graphics card now, as, I can't believe I am saying this, but the 9800 pro seems out of date now! Which is scary as not so long ago it was the best around!

Since ATI and Nvidea have released all their new cards, I have to admit I have lost touch with what is good and what is not? What would be a good upgrade from the 9800pro? I would like to stick with ATI, but what do you recommend CB? Would a Geforce be more power for my money?

I live in the UK so were are talking £s - let's say I would spend up to £120 on a new graphics card....which is about $220?

Thanks

Josh

Well if you want to stick with ATI i suggest the X700 256 but its still not the card the 6800 GT is. Its simply the best card for your money.

Have the lambs stopped crying Clarice?

Radeon 9800's bottleneck at roughly Athlon XP 3200's approximately.

Custom Built - you are overlooking how much the increased bus speed you are running helps as Athlons are starved for memory bandwidth. If he is not gonna overclock, a better video card will do little for his system. Even if he overclocks to 3200 specs, then a 9800 Pro is really about the best video card to have in there before it's overkill.

X700 is the same performance of a 9800 Pro. Plus, it's PCI-e, which his mobo doesn't have.

Plus look at cost here...

That extra stick will probably be $80.
That video card is about $380. It will be severely bottlenecked on an Athlon XP running 1.83GHz @ 166MHz (333DDR) bus. Not to mention lacking RAM for the games that could use the video card.

What I would recommend you do is get the RAM, get a better heatsink, and overclock that CPU! THEN upgrade your video card if you still feel like you need it (you won't).

My box is essentially what you'd be upgrading to. I can run Half Life 2 @ 1024x768 all image qualities turned on at 2x AF and 2xAA, and it runs fluidly.

My system specs...

Athlon 2500 @ 3200
1 gig RAM
Radeon 9800 Pro softmodded to XT.

For your own amusement, overclock your video card a bit, and see if your frames go up significantly. Bet you they don't.

I guarantee you this...if you got a 6600GT ($200), the 512M stick to get 1 gig of RAM ($80), and overclocked your CPU to 2.2GHz (the specs of a 3200) with a better heatsink ($30), it would KILL your box upgraded with only a 6800GT ($380)...and you'd have spent about $70 less!

MCSE, MCSA Messaging, baby!

Another reason the 6800GT is a bad idea...

You could get an Athlon 3000 mobo, CPU, Fan (probably for around $200), and a 6600GT ($200), and be roughly in the same price range as a 6800GT ($380). That would EASILY smoke your current box with a 6800GT.

But if you're saying $220 is your budget, you're only video card choice that is remotely significantly better is a 6600GT. Sorry, but I don't think you're gonna see much difference with that. At best, it's the same difference you'd probably see going to a gig of RAM, and that's only $80 compared to blowing your entire budget.

MCSE, MCSA Messaging, baby!

Grr...meant Athlon 64 3000 mobo, CPU, fan, sorry!

MCSE, MCSA Messaging, baby!

Josh,

I have an almost identical system to yours except I got an XP(M) 2600+ OC to 2.44Ghz and a 9700Pro and I don't encounter lags in my games that right now will make me go get $300.00 or more card.

Ask yourself do you need the upgrade at this time or just want to go 64-Bit and also upgrade your video card to get more bragging rights when you run benchies. What good is it when you upgrade your rig to play a game with all bells and whistles set to max if the game has little replay value.

I am not against benchmarks, but sometimes it tends to cloud people judgement and rationale for upgrades. If you have the money to burn, then by all means GO FOR IT !!!.

B4 you criticize a bigger man, walk a mile in his shoes. That way, you're a mile away, and you have his shoes.

Yeah, I just don't see much point burning $200 on a video card when your system won't feed it well.

Chances are you're gonna end up upgrading the mobo, CPU, fan, video card in one fell swoop in a year or two anyway because by then most everything will be PCI-e, not AGP.

$80 in the meantime I think is worth it. But in all honesty, seriously consider overclocking your CPU. Of all the Barton 2500's I've attempted to overclock (6), all hit 2.2GHz with 100% stability using a good heatsink. Throwing in friends who've tried, only one didn't hit 2.2GHz. That's around 20 Bartons or so in all.

MCSE, MCSA Messaging, baby!

oops my bad, I thought ATI made a basic 8X agp version of the X700.

I still do not think he will be bottle necked that severly. The reasoning for this is because i myself stuck a friends 6800 GT in my secondary rig (AMD 2800 333) and scored 10013 on 3D mark 03, so i cant help but feel he will score around 9000 with his current setup.

"For your own amusement, overclock your video card a bit, and see if your frames go up significantly. Bet you they don't"

Overclocking a video card NEVER significantly increases the frame rate. You can only expect to see 5 or so more frames on average unless you go copper water block with water cooling then you can expect to see "significant" increases as much as 20%.

Are you implying that system ram will actually increase FPS? Or just faster loading of games?

I really am not trying to get any one rialed up, I am simply going by my own trials that i have gone through peronally and i feel because of that - that a better video card will help him.

Have the lambs stopped crying Clarice?

Hey, it will yield a FPS boost, but even if he had $400, which he doesn't, think about what else he could do that would result in more FPS and better overall play...

Athlon 64 3000 Mobo, CPU, Fan, and a 6600GT. No doubt this combination would smoke an Athlon 2500 with a 6800GT for the same money.

Doesn't seem wise to me to blow $400 on a gfx card alone when he clearly needs a better CPU, and more RAM, too. But it's irrelevant. His budget is $200.

The RAM would reduce stuttering, and overall improve system performance in games and other apps. Yes, I do believe he'd see FPS improve on the latest games like Half Life 2, as well. He also will gain about 5-10% in memory throughput due to enabling dual channel with two sticks of memory. Biggest point about the RAM is it's only costing him $80. Not $400...not $200! ;-)

I also don't want to leave you with the impression I'm riled up. It's good discussion!

MCSE, MCSA Messaging, baby!

Thanks for all the replies. It is interesting to read it all! I think, for now, I will buy another stick of 512MB RAM and try overclocking my 2500 to 3200. To be fair, I did try o/c it when I first bought it, but tbh I just couldn't see that much diference, and my 3D mark 03 score remained almost the same, so I thought I might as well keep it at 2500 - but maybe having a gig of RAM and uping it back to an o/c 3200 would have a noticable difference?

And I do have $400 to spend if I want to...but like people have said there is no point. I am happy to wait to upgrade to Athlon 64 and PCI-E..which is quite an exciting thought! How long do you think it will be until Socket A and AGP are almost totally replaced by A64 and PCIE? A year or so? Cos that is gonna be one hell of a fast computer!

Thanks

Josh

You should see a pretty good difference if you OC it successfully. Not sure why you didn't before. Same video card then?

Make sure you update all your drivers - video card and Nforce2 in particular.

You should see noticeable gains with the RAM. It won't be earthshattering, but it's not gonna be pocket money shattering, either. ;-)

AGP mobos and video cards will still be offered for quite sometime. Need proof? You STILL can buy PCI video cards! LOL!

MCSE, MCSA Messaging, baby!

I just kinda skimped over these responses so I may be repeating what's been said.

You've got a decent board, decent video card, & 512MB PC3200 RAM. I'd say your weak link is the 333FSB CPU & you should be able to take care of that without speeding a penny. Simply increase your FSB to 200MHz (400FSB) & run your 2500+ as a 3200+. If your temps are good now, cooling shouldn't be an issue, but you may have to raise the CPU voltage (vcore) to stabilize your overclock

Asus A7N8X-X
1800+ @ 8 x 210MHz
512MB PC3200
Asus Ti4200 128MB
WinME/WinXP Pro

IMO, increasing to 1GB of RAM is unnecessary. Save your money for now & concentrate on overclocking to 3200+ speed. You can always invest in RAM later if you're not satisfied

Asus A7N8X-X
1800+ @ 8 x 210MHz
512MB PC3200
Asus Ti4200 128MB
WinME/WinXP Pro

I meant, SPENDING a penny

Asus A7N8X-X
1800+ @ 8 x 210MHz
512MB PC3200
Asus Ti4200 128MB
WinME/WinXP Pro

You could always try it without adding a gig and just overclocking, but while a gig of RAM isn't necessary, you can say the same thing about a 9800 Pro. Half Life 2 runs noticeably better as do many other similar advanced games. Overclocking without question will do more than the gig of RAM; nevertheless, if you're gaming a lot, and you're playing Half Life 2 and Far Cry or flight sims, the gig of RAM will make a difference.

MCSE, MCSA Messaging, baby!

The responses have been fantastic...thanks guys. I will up my CPU to 3200 now - like I said I used to have it at that speed and it just didn't seem very different.

Josh

Overclocking is good sometimes, but it depends on how often you uprade to new parts, because overclocking lowers your components operation life. If you don't have a lot of money and uprade only every 2 years(like me), I suggest just getting higher performance parts rather than overclock. Of course, for me, my components are too precious to me to be fried in some miscalculated overclocking experiment. But it's up to you.

Contrary to what Mitch wrote, overclocking is generally safe, if done "responsibly".

Even if you get a little carried away with your FSB settings, the chances of frying something are slim. What will happen is your system will become unstable, or it won't boot at all. If that happens, you either back off on the overclock a bit, or reset the BIOS & start from scratch. The things that can kill a CPU are overheating & overvolting - & the two of those kinda go hand-in-hand. As long as you have an adequately cooled case & a decnt HSF that's properly installed, you should be OK. Just be sure to monitor your temps & don't go crazy with the voltage. Personally, I draw the line at 1.8v on an Athlon XP/Sempron, but others push them higher with no ill effects.

As for the statement that overclocking shortens the life of your CPU, that's never been proven conclusively. Some "experts" say it reduces the lifespan by as much as 20%, other "experts" say it has little or no effect on the life of a CPU.

I don't know if it still holds true or not, but it used to be said that the average lifespan of a CPU is 10 years, so even if you reduce it's life by 20%, do you really think you'll be running that 2500+ 8 years from now? And who's to say that you HAVE to leave it overclocked forever?? I really don't think it's dying an early death is something you need to be concerned about.

Asus A7N8X-X
1800+ @ 8 x 210MHz
512MB PC3200
Asus Ti4200 128MB
WinME/WinXP Pro

Hey guys,

Thanks for all the advice you have given here. I got another 512MB of RAM today and ran 3D Mark 03. I got a pleasent surprise! I think I may have got the 3800 marks a bit wrong before!

With the 1GB of RAM I know have and my 2500+ o/c to 3200+ I got 5672 3D marks which I think is pretty dam good!

Getting a 2nd TFT delivered any day now to set up dual monitors...gonna rock!!

Cheers

Josh