I am building my first computer. I am using an Asus A8N-SLI Deluxe mobo and an AMD 64 3800+ processor. I have the retail in box version of the processor that comes with the heatsink. When I inspected the bottom of the heatsink, I noticed that the thermal interface compound that was pre-applied to the heatsink is severely flawed. It looks like someone ran a comb through it or sandpaper. I will need to remove and replace this compound before installation.

First question:
Can I use Arctic Silver 5 thermal grease with this processor? AMD's compound that is applied at the factory to their heatsink is a big square patch of grey material. Though it doesn't quite look like a thermal pad in my opinion. AMD states that thermal pads should be used on all their processors. In another document they state that thermal grease should be used on their capped processors, which this processor is.

Second question:
I would like to use a blue led fan for the heatsink fan. I don’t know what fan requirements are for a heatsink fan. Also, I don’t know if a non-factory fan will work with the quiet cool technology of the motherboard, which monitors and controls fan speed. I am looking at this Cooler Master blue 80mm led fan.

TLF-R82 Fan Specs.

Size: 80 x 80 x 25 mm
Rated Voltage: 12 VDC
Bearing Type: Rifle bearing (patented)
Input Current: 0.15 A
Rotation Speed: 2500 RPM
Air flow: 32.11 CFM
Acoustical Noise: 25.0 dB(A)
Input Power: 1.80 W.
Life Expectance: 50,000 hrs.
Continuous at 25ºC , 45~85% relative humidity.

If you would like a picture of it, here is the website link:

http://www.zipzoomfly.com/jsp/ProductDetail.jsp?ProductCode=370684

Thank you for your help and advise.
Rookie79

From my experience, AMD doesn't like the idea of using Artic Silver on the CPUs as it is conductive and it will void the warranty...but guess what?..
I USE IT! I have had no problems whatsoever..just make sure you are extremely careful in application of this or you could short out something.
Arctic Silver is very good and if you ask me it is the best in heat transfer. The thermal pads are not good in my opinion..it is best to clean your heatsink and
processor and shine them with a lint free cloth prior to applying the thermal grease. Also, make sure that your fingers don't come in contact with the CPU or heatsink or the thermal transfer will suffer.

I don't know much about cool n quite but my guess is that any fan should work if it fits your system. I could be wrong..but I would assume you are okay with that selection...hope this helps!

Sempron 2400+ OCed to 2.15GHZ
Abit NF7-S2
1 GB PC3200 Ram
Thermaltake T2-M4 HSF
rmackie@microtailors.com
www.microtailors.com

Thank you. It was very helpful. I did some more searching on AMD's website. They recommend the following thermal grease for use with this processor. But I am still thinking of using Arctic Silver 5.

Bergquist TIC-3000 Grease
Shin Etsu G751 Grease
Shin Etsu X23-7762 Grease
Shin Etsu X23-7783D Grease
Thermoset, Lord CPD TC-350 Grease

Using anything but the ones you listed above will void the 3 yr warranty.

I've built a LOT of systems over the years, but I've never used Arctic Silver & I never will...but that's just me. Most people buy into the hype that it's the best thing since "sliced bread". I don't.

Asus A7N8X-X
1800+ @ 8 x 210MHz
768MB PC3200
Asus A9550 128MB/128-bit
Gamer Edition
WinME/WinXP Pro

"I would like to use a blue led fan for the heatsink fan"

I forgot about this...changing the fan will also void the warranty. Why did you bother buying retail?

Asus A7N8X-X
1800+ @ 8 x 210MHz
768MB PC3200
Asus A9550 128MB/128-bit
Gamer Edition
WinME/WinXP Pro

I purchased retail because it is only $1.00 more than buying OEM and it comes with a heatsink. Plus I wanted the warranty. However I do not want to void the warranty. I have found nothing on the AMD website that states anything about voiding a warranty by using other items, but knowing that does make a difference.

I have not been able to find any of the thermal grease options listed by AMD as recommended thermal grease. I have looked on all the major online retailers that I know of.

Okay. I found on the AMD website the warranty information for processors in a box (PIB), which is the retail boxed processors.

It does state that using any other heatsink or fan than what came with the CPU will void the 3 year warranty. I did not see anything about the thermal grease voiding the warranty. AMD documents and online support leave much to be desired for the most part. I don't doubt that there may be a clause that voids the warranty if you use any thermal grease than what I listed in response 2.

I have not been able to find any of the thermal grease listed by AMD anywhere, even doing google searches, unless I live in Japan.

Earlier I tried to call AMD support and talk to them about the thermal compound on the provided heatsink. It tells you to do that if there are any imperfections in the factory thermal compound. Of course nobody works there except for Monday-Thursday. A four day work week. How nice.

Needless to say, I am more than a little frustrated with the situation and the delay it will make in my plans.

I will call AMD on Monday and post what they tell me. I am sure I am not the only person that is going to face this problem with them.

Jam- Can you elaborate on why you do not like Arctic Silver products? Not all of them use silver or other metal compounds in them. Arctic Silver Ceramique is an example. It is not conductive or capacitive. I am not asking you to justify your decision, just to explain it so I can understand better your position.

One problem with Arctic Silver is that it conducts electricity as well as heat. Excess application can lead to disaster.

Are you sure that the thermal material on the base of the HSF won't work? It is a lot like putty and it might flatten out when you apply the HSF. I'd apply the HSF, let it sit for a half hour and then boot to BIOS and see what temp you get. If you get 30C you're doing pretty good.

I've replaced the 60mm fan on my stock Athlon XP HSF with a 80mm akasa one, it isa a little noisey, but worth it IMO.

If you plan to O/C then it does not matter whether cool & quiet works with the fan (it should do) , if you O/C cool & quiet does not work anyway.

Good luck with it!

Zee.

AMD Athlon 2800+ barton @ 12.5 X 176 : 2200mhz
512Mb Corsair RAM
MSI KT6 Delta mobo
Leadtek AGP 6600 gt 128Mb
120Gb Seagate HDD

Badboy makes a good point here. Thermal pads are phase change material i.e. the stuff changes from its current consistency at about 60°C and flows into the imperfections of the heatsink and processor the first time it's installed and fired up.
I would try it. Don't necessarily look for 30°C temps though...motherboard temp reporting varies too much to give you a target temperature like that. Look for something in the 50° or less range at idle.

Maybe I can explain jam's comments on AS5.

I use pads, AS5 (seldom) and the cheap Radio Shack thermal paste (usually) and find temp differences barely measurable. If you want to pin me down, I'll admit that AS5 is worth about 1°C over the Radio Shack stuff. Proper heatsink installation and good case airflow will make all the difference here...much more so than the choice of one heatsink compound over another.

Skip

I've seen several reviews for the different Arctic Silver products and it never seems to give more than a 2-3C advantage over generic thermal paste.

With Athlons and Athlon XPs, the CPU core is so very small that thermal problems very quite common. The CPU core on the Athlon64s is so much larger and I don't think heat is as much of an issue.

I was shocked when I got 29C in BIOS with the stock HSF and its thermal pad the first time I fired up my Athlon64 3200+.

Nice to see ya Skip...I know we have similar feelings about thermal paste. I can honestly say that I've never used any version of AS before.

I think AMD knows a little more about this stuff than I do & they specifically state not to use AS - that's good enough for me. I usually buy retail & just go with the stock HSF w/pad. If I buy an aftermarket HSF, I use the preinstalled pad (if there is one). Of course, if I remove the HSF for some reason, I use paste & I use the cheap Radio Shack stuff almost exclusively. The only other product I tried was Stars-700 & that was only because I was given a tube. I used it on my Sempron 2500+ after pulling the HSF for a wire mod. Here's a clip of what I wrote in a different thread:

"I ran Prime95 for over 3 hrs with just the 512MB stick installed & CPU/RAM both running at 185MHz FSB. There were no errors & the temp maxed at 39C. Idle temp was 32C, system was 26C prior to testing. I know that seems low, but the heatsink was only slighly warm to the touch, so I assume it's correct. I have an 80mm front intake fan, 80mm side panel intake (don't like it but case came with it), & 80mm rear exhaust (plus PSU exhaust). The last time I installed the CPU, I tried a different paste than my usual Radio Shack stuff. I had picked up a freebie syringe of "Stars-700" Silver paste several months ago & finally decided to give it a shot. So far, the temps seem comparable."

Asus A7N8X-X
1800+ @ 8 x 210MHz
768MB PC3200
Asus A9550 128MB/128-bit
Gamer Edition
WinME/WinXP Pro

"Look for something in the 50° or less range at idle."

Isn't that a little warm? I would think that 50° would be a little warm at idle..I shoot for 50 at full load but 40-45 at idle. That way when my processor is really stressed, the max temp is 53.5-54°

Sempron 2400+ OCed to 2.2GHZ
Abit NF7-S2
1 GB PC3200 Ram
Thermaltake T2-M4 HSF
rmackie@microtailors.com
www.microtailors.com

If I can, I will try and take a macro picture of the heatsink thermal compound and see if it looks too flawed to all of you. Since this is my first build, maybe I am expecting too much. I am just trying to go by all of the documents and instructions I have read.

I am not sure if this website will let me post a picture. If it doesn't, does anyone have any suggestions as to where to post it so I can just link a url for people to see it?

If the pad is in one piece then don't worry about it. The pad basically melts under operation fo the surface now is of no consequence.

Forgot to mention something. Regardless of what cooling is being used the first thing that should be done, IMO, during initial bootup is to enter the BIOS and go to PC health. Verify the temps are stable and good. Then set the date, time, onboard devices, etc.

Okay. I will give it a shot. I did take some good large macro photos of the thermal compound to post, but don't know where I can post them.

The thermal compound does not look like the wax thermal pads that I have seen. It looks more like a factory applied thermal grease of some sort, except it is all dry (I assume by the look of it, it is matt finish). In the light you can even see pinholes in it and can see the heatsink underneath it. But I shall give it a try and see what the temps look like. I just worry about burning it up.

A question about anti-static mats and wrist bands. I have a mat and a wrist band that I bought to use when building the system. Both of them have an alligator clip on a wire that attaches to them. None have an electrical outlet ground to be plugged in. So how am I supposed to ground them? The instructions say that a common ground must be used.

Thanks!!!

The screws on the electrical switch and outlet covers should have continuity to ground. You could back a screw off a bit and attach the alligator clip there.

Thank you OtheHill, that was such a quick response. I am very appreciative of this website and the people on it. You are all great!

Rookie79

50°C is not necessarily bad or good without knowing the actual measurement that can be obtained (with a lot of work) with a thermocouple.

I'll say it again...a motherboard can easily report temps 10° high or low. You need to use common sense or just ignore reported temps that are within reason and rely on system performance or a change in reported temps to see if you're making headway or losing ground when you change something.

Of the three machines I have running now, I only know for a fact that one is correct...the other two are anyones' guess.

Best advice I've seen lately on the use of an antistatic strap. If your house has a good ground...the strap will too.

Skip

I am posting this so that everyone can know AMD's stand with this issue. I am not ignoring the advice given to me by those of you that posted replies to my questions.

I just got off of the phone with AMD Technical Support. I described the issue to them and they told me that I needed to replace the thermal interface compound that came on the heatsink.

They told me that I can use any thermal interface compound that I choose, but that they do recommend I try the ones listed in their "white papers". I asked if I used my own material if it would void my warranty. They told me that it would not void my warranty, but that if I got the compound on the processor pins and shorted out the processor that it would void my warranty. I specifically asked about Arctic Silver 5, and Arctic Silver Ceramique. They said that both are acceptable but warned me that if the Arctic Silver 5 got on any of the pins that it would short out the processor.

They have recently changed thier offical policy then.

I am cleaning the old thermal compound off of the heatsink so that I can replace it with thermal grease. I heated up the surface with a hair dryer and used a plastic scraper to remove most of the compound. I then used 91% (9% water) isopropyl alcohol to clean up the rest of it. I cleaned it many times, and the surface looks pretty clean. However, when I clean it with more alcohol, I always get more grey compound on the white lint free cloth that I am using. Do I need to get it cleaner than this? And if so, how? Do I need to clean it until the cloth comes out white? I am only concerned because I am thinking that if it is still filling in the imperfections of the metal, then the new stuff wont be able to.

That is good enough.

Thank You OtheHill! You have been incredibly helpful.

When I am done with the build, I will let everyone know how it went. I may have more questions during the build too. I am just about ready to go and install the motherboard.

ARRRRG! The case I bought is a Thermaltake Shark full aluminum case. It has a removable motherboard tray. There is a cut out in the tray.

I screwed the brass stand offs into place so that they would line up with the board. It seems that there is only one way to position the board and have the stand offs line up correctly. The problem is that when I position the board that way the leading edge of it that faces the rear of the computer lays on top of the bent up edge of the motherboard tray. In other words, the motherboard tray edges are bent up a little as to form a box. The other end of the motherboard does not even go to the edge of the other end of the motherboard tray. If I position the motherboard the way it appears to be correct, it would crack the board when I screwed it in due to the edge being elevated above the standoffs. When it is aligned this way the cut out in the motherboard tray lines up with the PCI slots.

Am I doing something wrong?

Did you check the length of the standoffs? There are more than one length. I suggest that you temporarily install the tray into the case and then hold the MBoard in place. This will help you see what is right or wrong. Just remember, the ports on the bakplane must line up with the plate in the case without any forcing, other than a slight force to the rear. there are usually springy rings around the port that you need to compress a little. Be sure you aren't trying to mount the board on the wrong side of the tray.

Okay, I will check it out. I looked at the standoffs that were extra and they all seem to be the same length, but I will take the ones out of the tray that I already installed as well.

I will go and put it in the case and give it a shot too.

Oh, just to confirm, since there is no instruction on this with any of the components. The power supply bundle should come out of the power supply on the side closest to the motherboard, or the side farthest away? I have it closest.

I don't understand your PSU question. Did the PSU come uninstalled? There should be only one way for the PSU to fit the case screws. Check to see if you are using the correct side of the tray.

The PSU actually sits on rails in this case and is installed horizontally. so it can rest on either horizontal surface of the supply with the fan venting outside of the case and with the screws lined up. So, if you installed it one way, the 3 pronged plug that the power cord plugs into can either be on the left side or right side of the positioned PSU when viewed from the back of the case. Orienting the PSU will also make the bundle of power cords inside the case either rest closer to the motherboard side of the case, or closer to the removable side panel of the case. The bundle comes out of one corner of the PSU. Hopefully this was not more confusing than the way I originally stated. This is not a big issue, was just checking because of a slight lack of confidence. I am pretty sure it is positioned correctly.

I took all of the brass standoffs and positioned them on their end on a level surface. Each stand off is exactly the same length.

There is only one way the motherboard tray will fit into the case. It also looks the same in all of the pictures in the manual.

The motherboard is one piece of aluminum. That piece has two ends that are bent up and have handles cut into them to form handles for the tray. The other two edges of the rectangular mobo tray are also creased and bent up on the edge. The best way to describe it is a small metal box with corners bent up so that it would hold about 1/3" of water if it was a solid piece.

One of the bent up edges is higher than the other one. It is the edge closer to the rear of the case. The motherboard has to go all the way to that edge in order for the connections in the rear of the computer to protrude through the case. The other edge of the motherboard, that is towards the front of the case does not even go all the way to the end of the mobo tray. The mobo tray edge on that side is bent up shorter than the one near the back. it is impossible to position the mobo to fit correctly it seems because of the higher edge of the mobo tray. When I try and position the mobo connections to protrude through the end of the case, it will not sit flush. The bottom solder connections on the mobo snag on the raised edge of the mobo tray.

It actually looks like the factory bent the edges of the mobo tray exactly opposite of the way it would easily work.

Here is a link to the case on Thermaltake's website. In the picture you can see a small picture of the mobo tray.

http://www.thermaltake.com/xaserCase/shark/black/black.htm

I can take a nice full sized picture of my actual mobo tray and mobo and case and email it to you if you like. Just send me your email address at basin_us@yahoo.com and I will email them directly to you.

Thanks OTheHill!

I can't tell how the tray is held in place but I would guess there are some sort of mating pins. Look to see if you aren't supposed to mate up the pins and then slide the tray up, down or back. That is the usual way trays work. If it could slide backwards then it would be OK, correct? Think about this, do you really think the case and tray are manufactured wrong? Are you sure you don't have the tray turned upside down? To verify that you KNOW how the tray is intended to mount, verify the screw or screw to retain it in the case actually will work. The pins should go into slotted holes.

The problems that I am describing are with the mobo tray installed, slid all the way to the rear of the case, which is what locks it into the case.

There are some metal fins that catch underneath some slots in the case once the tray is inserted and slid to the rear of the case.

Here is a picture that is much larger of the mobo tray inside of the case. It is on newegg.com
http://www2.newegg.com/Product/Showimage.asp?Mode=&Type=&Image=11-133-143-14.jpg%2C11-133-143-13.jpg%2C11-133-143-02.jpg%2C11-133-143-03.jpg%2C11-133-143-04.jpg%2C11-133-143-05.jpg%2C11-133-143-10.jpg%2C11-133-143-09.jpg%2C11-133-143-08.jpg%2C11-133-143-07.jpg%2C11-133-143-06.jpg%2C11-133-143-11.jpg%2C11-133-143-12.jpg&CurImage=11-133-143-08.jpg&Description=THERMALTAKE+SHARK+VA7000BWA+Black+Aluminum+ATX+Full+Tower+Computer+Case+-+Retail

I don't know what to tell you. The back plate on the case is recessed into the case so the MBoard shouln't need to go completely back. Did you actually mount the tray and then hold the MBoard in there to see? Did you need to change out the backplate using one that came with the MBoard?

I had not tried screwing the mobo to the mobo tray because of the elevation problem, and for fear that I would crack it. I did change the backplate with the one that came with the mobo.

I just screwed the mobo to the mobo tray without tightening anything down very much. upon further inspection it seems that the mobo lays flat and looks good except on the end of the mobo that is closest to the keyboard and mouse inputs. Just under those inputs on this motherboard are digital audio output and an optical audio output. It looks like something on the bottom of the board that is part of the digital audio output jack is keeping the mobo from laying flush against the tray. I will have to examine it closely and see what I can do. Thank you for your help. I will let you know how it goes. I am going to take an hour break though to let the frustration cool so I can look at it more calmly.

By the way, how did you learn so much about computers? Did you go to school for it? I would not mind doing that and learning a new and useful skill.

I am 61 years old and a home builder by trade. Computers are just a hobby that I have. I learned out of necessity. I am still learning. Your problem is an example. Are you sure the backplane is installed correctly and is the right one?
Well, I am going to bed. It is 2 am here in Michigan. Stay with it, you will figure it out. Remember there are forums at the MB and case sites too.

Could you have the MOBO tray "upsidedown? Are the beveled edges supposed to be on the side opposite the side the MOBO is installed on?

I sent an email to Thermaltake Technical Support. They state that the motherboard tray is defective. They say that a new revision motherboard tray needs to be shipped out to me. I was sent to an RMA link on their website. It would appear that I have to pay to ship their defective part back to them and wait for their process to have a non-defective part shipped back to me. I sent them another email expressing my concern about this and was given a number to call for express shipment of the new part. After talking to them, they have shipped a new tray out to me and will not require the old defective part to be returned.

If there is a pile of dog crap in a football field, I will be the one to step in it. This is my first build and already I have had two defective components of the build. Last night while struggling with this motherboard tray the cord from my antistatic wrist band tipped over a bottle of 91% isopropyl alcohol. The bottle was capped, but leaked alcohol out into a pool. I did not notice until I smelled the alcohol. My new PSU had wires in that location. A few wires with connectors were sitting in the pool of alcohol. The power supply was not plugged in or hooked to anything. Do I need to replace this power supply now? Will the alcohol cause problems for the wires or the insulation?

I also ended up touching some of the soldered connections on the bottom of the motherboard and some printed circuits on the top last night while I was trying to get this motherboard to fit on the tray. Do I need to take any steps to clean the oil from my hands off of it now, or just not worry about it?

For future reference, if anyone is needing the number to the advanced shipment department of Thermaltake it is (800) 988-1088 ext. 103. Their hours are from 9am-5:30pm PST Mon-Fri.

Remind me not to walk next to you in a thunderstorm. I am glad to hear the tray problem has been resolved. Keep in touch.

Oh, by the way. I bought a computer desk from a local furniture place and had them deliver it. When I got it the box looked like it fell off the truck. The desk was crushed. Now I have to wait for them to order more in and deliver another. Typical luck for me. I was always told by the people that I worked with that if I didn't have bad luck, I would have no luck at all (I worked in public safety for many years until I got injured at work and disabled, yup, my luck again). But things always work out in the end.

Thanks again everyone for the help you have given me. Hopefully I can return the favor.

The new motherboard tray just arrived. It is completely different than the one that the case shipped with. There is no bent up edge on the tray where the rear outputs sit. The motherboard is now mounted to the tray and successfully installed inside the case. WHEW!

When I was positioning the motherboard, I turned it over and looked at the bottom of the board. Everything looks crystal clean, except for a few spots. It looks stained like a saltwater stain of some sort. I did not do anything with it, and just mounted the board anyway. Does this sound like something you have seen before, or that may be problematic in the future?

Well, the system is finally built. There was a problem with one of the power supply connectors that will require me to replace it with one that is not defective, but besides that and all the other problems that I had with defective products, everything worked out fine. lol.

The system runs like a charm. It is my first build, and I am feeling pretty good about it. Sure, I lost a little hair because of the frustrating problems I had during the build, but I have a good comb-over going now so all is good.

I don't know how good this is, but on the freeware (not full edition) of 3dMark05 the computer scored 5549. If anyone knows if this is good or not, please let me know.

Thanks for all the help guys.

Rookie79

I have another question that I was meaning to ask. The CPU temp runs from between 37c with no load and up to 53c loaded. Are these acceptable temperatures? I ended up using the Arctic Silver 5 because it is the only thing that was sold near my location.

Those temp are OK.